Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2023 12:04:27 GMT -5
...are we really talking about the product being cold after basically everything they've been doing since All In? to be fair Meltzer himself is even stating as such now using that exact word... "cold" |
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on Oct 9, 2023 12:16:11 GMT -5
I think Meltzer's larger point recently is that it's just really hard to be the number two promotion in the United States and remain hot for an extended period of time. It just hits a little different this time because no matter how many issues you have with AEW - they are significantly more competent than TNA or late stages WCW. But even with mostly well booked shows and a strong roster, it's hard.
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Facetious
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Post by Facetious on Oct 9, 2023 12:28:52 GMT -5
I think Meltzer's larger point recently is that it's just really hard to be the number two promotion in the United States and remain hot for an extended period of time. It just hits a little different this time because no matter how many issues you have with AEW - they are significantly more competent than TNA or late stages WCW. But even with mostly well booked shows and a strong roster, it's hard. Right, like I don't believe AEW is cold, but it's certainly luke warm and a lot of that feels like it's just hard for them to ride momentum longer than a few weeks. WWE just has the momentum for the first time in forever and it doesn't seem like they're due to slow down. |
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Post by raymondo316 on Oct 9, 2023 12:59:50 GMT -5
Why not do some smaller arenas but make sure they at least have some interesting looks to them. Like Hammerstein or Dailys Place? Half the place being full reminds me of some Impact stuff when they were trying to go against WWE live on Mondays. This. Full smaller arenas look better on TV than half-full larger arenas. Hammerstein in NYC is relatively expensive to run, and they haven't had any issues drawing in NYC. However just for the visual it would be nice to see an episode emanate from there. Lowell Memorial Auditorium in MA is another good one. If I'm thinking of the right place. I think WWF Final Four in early 97 was there, or one of the RAWs around it. Has a bit of a Hammerstein flavor to it. Other than those, any small to mid size arena that fits 5000 or so at capacity would look fine on TV if full. Sometimes the brain doesn't even register the difference between a 5000 seat arena and a 20000 seat arena while watching. Either way I'd love to get rid of the interminable "lol look at the empty sections!" social media posts that seem to be clogging up everything now. The comments of every single one are like "Guess they shouldn't have gotten rid of Punk huh?" when this was just as much of an issue 2 months ago. Like I said, interminable. I'd make it my goal to book venues that don't have a single empty seat, then move back up to larger ones if the product catches fire (begins selling out quick again). They ran that small 4000 capacity basketball arena in Washington DC a few times, and it looked good on TV
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dpg
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Post by dpg on Oct 9, 2023 13:04:31 GMT -5
AEW is now doing more televised events than ever before, but doesn't have the fanbase for so many events yet. It may do as it grows, but it doesn't yet.
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markymark
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Post by markymark on Oct 9, 2023 13:10:08 GMT -5
AEW is now doing more televised events than ever before, but doesn't have the fanbase for so many events yet. It may do as it grows, but it doesn't yet.
Thats on TK for wanting to rely on Punk to carry Collision and he had no clear backup plan once he got fired.
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Fade
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Post by Fade on Oct 9, 2023 13:29:54 GMT -5
At least they’re lowering prices/adding deals   |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2023 13:43:48 GMT -5
When is it that the people reporting the numbers become a part of the communication problem too?
There is such a small % of tickets remaining filled yet some imaginary line was created over relatively low overall numbers to begin with.
This is the UNDER 1 MILLION stuff that drives even me nuts.
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Post by raymondo316 on Oct 9, 2023 13:54:54 GMT -5
Last time they ran that venue they did just under 4000, so to be sitting at 2400 for Edge's debut match in AEW, its certainly a surprise.
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Post by HMARK Center on Oct 9, 2023 13:56:20 GMT -5
...are we really talking about the product being cold after basically everything they've been doing since All In? That’s subjective thinking. People have different enjoyment level when it comes to the product no?, sence All In they had some great shows and some really slog ones as well but overall, the product isn’t exactly hitting on all cylinders right now Yes, of course "I liked the show/didn't like the show" is subjective, but the fairly universal vibe around the product (at least among people who discuss it) has been pretty loudly positive going back to All In, and especially the last two PPVs combined with the TV around it. What we're definitely getting in some places is people saying "wow, I really liked that show", then the follow-up discussion being all about how it didn't sell enough tickets or whatever and how that means the show must not have been good, actually, or some variant thereof. "AEW's never been good at stories" is utter bunk, "AEW hasn't developed stars" doesn't hold up under any scrutiny, and yes, I will absolutely argue "AEW doesn't do it like WWE enough" is a major point of contention for many people for whom WWE is all that wrestling has ever been; I've even seen posts recently where people have contradicted themselves within a single comment about how AEW is trying too much to come off like WWE by hiring Edge or whatever else, while arguing it needs to be more like WWE, since that's where "stories get told", but obviously in that particular WWE way that AEW should totally copy. That's just universal any time you've got a second-place upstart against a long-established market leader. You're dealing with the secondary promotion, one which rode a major hot streak out of the pandemic after the leading company had fired or let walk a ton of high-end talent, plus ticket demand for live events was incredibly strong across many different events/sports/etc.; said promotion hit a major public perception issue about a year later (Brawl Out), a perception which has stuck around for a good while; said snag hit at a bad time given the market leader was getting hot again, at which point it's very tough to row against the tide regardless of the quality of your product, because no matter what you're number two, and there's not a Hulk Hogan around these days whose very presence could potentially flip a script like that for 83 weeks. If we want to talk about what in AEW's own actions is going to cause damage to their ticket sales, look to the simplest explanations, ones we've been over in this thread with both numbers and anecdotes: rising ticket prices and poor marketing in cities they're traveling to. WWE nails the latter seemingly every time, and I can't fathom why it took until a week before Grand Slam, for example, for me to hear anything about the show anywhere around where I live when they went out of their way to book a 20,000 seat venue. But it makes people feel better to say "it's the technical issues", "there's too much ROH", or "so and so isn't featured enough" as if any of that will amount to just about any difference whatsoever, because then we can feel like sleuths who've cracked the case of why the show isn't drawing great live attendance. Brought it up in another thread, but it's like getting to argue that the Finger-poke of Doom killed WCW instead of just TimeWarner just not wanting wrestling on their channels anymore; the former tells a much more compelling and satisfying story than the latter boring, corporate explanation. WWE got hot again; I'd argue it didn't take much for them to do so, but the big choices they did make have paid off - mainly letting Sami do his thing with the Bloodline, letting Gunther be the kind of act WWE never really has otherwise, giving Cody a strong push at a time when people are clamoring for a conquering babyface in the promotion. Some of that is because of legitimate overall improvements to their shows, like Triple H reducing some of the worst "Vince-isms" of the last 20 years, and some of it is that as the market leader that most fans grew up with it doesn't need to do a whole ton to bring back people who might've walked away for awhile. That, more than anything, is going to hurt the second place company, who again are doing themselves no favors with their ticket prices and lack of effective (or in some cases seemingly any) marketing for live shows. This turned into a rant, but the tl;dr is that we fans really know next to nothing about what moves the needles for these companies or what constitutes healthy business for any of them, so we like to think we can come up with all kinds of fantasy booking solutions instead of recognizing that a lot shit like this is the effect of a lot of factors that are hard to have control over. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2023 13:57:03 GMT -5
Last time they ran that venue they did just under 4000, so to be sitting at 2400 for Edge's debut match in AEW, its certainly a surprise. Fair enough I guess without including the history there it becomes a bit of a pile on. Yeah if so then it's a continued trend that can't just be whisked away. |
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Post by The Captain on Oct 9, 2023 14:09:11 GMT -5
As far as marketing goes, I think AEW is relying too much on social media as opposed to local marketing.
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markymark
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Post by markymark on Oct 9, 2023 14:17:56 GMT -5
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Post by SneakMan on Oct 9, 2023 14:37:06 GMT -5
That’s subjective thinking. People have different enjoyment level when it comes to the product no?, sence All In they had some great shows and some really slog ones as well but overall, the product isn’t exactly hitting on all cylinders right now Yes, of course "I liked the show/didn't like the show" is subjective, but the fairly universal vibe around the product (at least among people who discuss it) has been pretty loudly positive going back to All In, and especially the last two PPVs combined with the TV around it. What we're definitely getting in some places is people saying "wow, I really liked that show", then the follow-up discussion being all about how it didn't sell enough tickets or whatever and how that means the show must not have been good, actually, or some variant thereof. "AEW's never been good at stories" is utter bunk, "AEW hasn't developed stars" doesn't hold up under any scrutiny, and yes, I will absolutely argue "AEW doesn't do it like WWE enough" is a major point of contention for many people for whom WWE is all that wrestling has ever been; I've even seen posts recently where people have contradicted themselves within a single comment about how AEW is trying too much to come off like WWE by hiring Edge or whatever else, while arguing it needs to be more like WWE, since that's where "stories get told", but obviously in that particular WWE way that AEW should totally copy. That's just universal any time you've got a second-place upstart against a long-established market leader. You're dealing with the secondary promotion, one which rode a major hot streak out of the pandemic after the leading company had fired or let walk a ton of high-end talent, plus ticket demand for live events was incredibly strong across many different events/sports/etc.; said promotion hit a major public perception issue about a year later (Brawl Out), a perception which has stuck around for a good while; said snag hit at a bad time given the market leader was getting hot again, at which point it's very tough to row against the tide regardless of the quality of your product, because no matter what you're number two, and there's not a Hulk Hogan around these days whose very presence could potentially flip a script like that for 83 weeks. If we want to talk about what in AEW's own actions is going to cause damage to their ticket sales, look to the simplest explanations, ones we've been over in this thread with both numbers and anecdotes: rising ticket prices and poor marketing in cities they're traveling to. WWE nails the latter seemingly every time, and I can't fathom why it took until a week before Grand Slam, for example, for me to hear anything about the show anywhere around where I live when they went out of their way to book a 20,000 seat venue. But it makes people feel better to say "it's the technical issues", "there's too much ROH", or "so and so isn't featured enough" as if any of that will amount to just about any difference whatsoever, because then we can feel like sleuths who've cracked the case of why the show isn't drawing great live attendance. Brought it up in another thread, but it's like getting to argue that the Finger-poke of Doom killed WCW instead of just TimeWarner just not wanting wrestling on their channels anymore; the former tells a much more compelling and satisfying story than the latter boring, corporate explanation. WWE got hot again; I'd argue it didn't take much for them to do so, but the big choices they did make have paid off - mainly letting Sami do his thing with the Bloodline, letting Gunther be the kind of act WWE never really has otherwise, giving Cody a strong push at a time when people are clamoring for a conquering babyface in the promotion. Some of that is because of legitimate overall improvements to their shows, like Triple H reducing some of the worst "Vince-isms" of the last 20 years, and some of it is that as the market leader that most fans grew up with it doesn't need to do a whole ton to bring back people who might've walked away for awhile. That, more than anything, is going to hurt the second place company, who again are doing themselves no favors with their ticket prices and lack of effective (or in some cases seemingly any) marketing for live shows. This turned into a rant, but the tl;dr is that we fans really know next to nothing about what moves the needles for these companies or what constitutes healthy business for any of them, so we like to think we can come up with all kinds of fantasy booking solutions instead of recognizing that a lot shit like this is the effect of a lot of factors that are hard to have control over. No no no, this all makes too much sense. The answer clearly is that there are too many ROH titles on TV. Ignore the fact that a majority of those titles are held by wrestlers who are on Dynamite or Collision all the time anyway; show the casual fan silver belts instead of gold and they're gonna get confused and write the company off altogether. |
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Post by Denny Zen is Cooking™ on Oct 9, 2023 14:41:20 GMT -5
That’s subjective thinking. People have different enjoyment level when it comes to the product no?, sence All In they had some great shows and some really slog ones as well but overall, the product isn’t exactly hitting on all cylinders right now This turned into a rant, but the tl;dr is that we fans really know next to nothing about what moves the needles for these companies or what constitutes healthy business for any of them, so we like to think we can come up with all kinds of fantasy booking solutions instead of recognizing that a lot shit like this is the effect of a lot of factors that are hard to have control over. QFT. And, another factor, I think, is that AEW is still less than 5 years old as a company, and more than half of its existence was during an unprecedented pandemic. I would argue that AEW was so "hot" coming out of the pandemic, that we honestly don't even really have a good barometer for what constitutes being "cold" and what is simply the baseline for the #2 professional wrestling company in the modern entertainment landscape. We are currently quibbling about AEW drawing 3500-6000 houses for television because AEW has established an ability to draw 7500-10000. I hate to pile on poor TNA when it's down, but the context is very important here. TNA Bound for Glory 2011, TNA's biggest PPV of the year, smack dab in the middle of the period in which Impact had brought in Hogan and Bischoff, had tried the move to Monday nights, had talent like Kurt Angle, Ken Anderson, and RVD down the card, and had as much "mainstream" cache as the company had ever had only drew 3,585. To make the other obvious comparison, Starrcade 2000 only drew 6,596 and Greed only drew 5,030. Again, for PPVs. The Nitro after Starrcade 2000 on December 18, 2000 drew 2,872. It's all relative. If AEW is truly "cold" right now, then its "cold" period is substantially more successful than any non-WWE wrestling company has been in a literal quarter century. The honeymoon period for AEW has ended, and it seems like its audience has regressed to the mean. That's not a bad thing at all, particularly if it continues to ebb and flow as it has over the first four years of its existence. The problem as I see it, personally, is that there is such a large contingency of WWE stans online who, for whatever reason, enjoyed WWE's hegemonic status quo and felt threatened by AEW's success, so they are doing everything in their power to spin relatively normal ebbs and flows of a live entertainment business into sure signs that AEW is failing and dying, when that's just not the case. I swear, when NXT handily beats Dynamite in the ratings tomorrow night (and it absolutely will), I'm going to have to stay off of wrestling internet for a month or two. |
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Post by raymondo316 on Oct 9, 2023 15:09:59 GMT -5
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Fade
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Post by Fade on Oct 9, 2023 15:21:42 GMT -5
Going by this tweet it sounds like AEW are basically stuck running these big arenas for at least a year whether they like it or not. Welp |
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Post by DrBackflipsHoffman on Oct 9, 2023 15:47:22 GMT -5
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cjb01: Limited Edition Item!
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Post by cjb01: Limited Edition Item! on Oct 9, 2023 16:12:30 GMT -5
Going by this tweet it sounds like AEW are basically stuck running these big arenas for at least a year whether they like it or not. Welp This isn't a surprise, as this is usually how they book out, same with WWE This is like others have said, something they're gonna have to deal with likely until 2024, and they HAVE to sometimes book out that far because of other things booking the arenas if they don't act on it, and with previous metrics and expectation on when they did book these venues, the whole sudden decline wasn't really happening when they likely booked them in the Spring/Summer, things were more normal. Inflation has gotten worse, as has the economic situation, and just a lot of other factors as to why they're only filling out the arenas that they are I don't think it's going to do anything substantial in the end if and when they run some smaller venues. What they need to do is what they're doing, offering discounts for certain seating areas but above all else, they need to run local advertisements and events. It moves tickets, a lot. They don't need to even run local ads just have a street team do their thing, and it will pay dividends to have that kind of advertisement for your product. |
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Post by Mr Mario Mario on Oct 9, 2023 17:13:09 GMT -5
Well I’ll take my hypotoad suggestion and go cry in the corner thank you very much |
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