Punk Scrum Thread II: Punk terminated from AEW

[XIII]

No one is ever going to get along with everyone, but for what you’re paying these people you need them to be professional enough to safely work with each other.

The longer you put off the inevitable the worse the fallout is going to be.

[Final Countdown Jones]

Aug 23, 2023 17:21:46 GMT -5 UN PLOMBIER NIGHTMARE #blm said:

Its fine not having everyone get along but when it has gotten so bad that the on screen product regularly takes a backseat to the off screen bullshit even to those not in this type of thread, you've got a real problem. You're creating a divide between two shows and two groups of people with no potential outcome besides both shows eventually doing worse.

Wouldn't you rather nip this shit in the bud and focus on not only being the best promotion out there but... competition instead of eroding from the inside? Just a thought?

Remember how they pretty much guaranteed Punk vs. Joe at Wembley and instead of talking about that we talked about an off-camera comment about toys that morphed into "Daniels and Nemeth were barred from entry to the building"? I think it's great how much we're able to just focus on the show, which is what matters. The show is what matters. Nothing's taking away from the show.

[The Ichi]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that wrestling has never in history benefited from guys not getting along, and that remains one of the single worst myths there is.

And before people point to their favourite example: Bret and Shawn, they forget that as soon as tensions went beyond trying to work everyone, they got in a fight where Bret tried to scalp Shawn and it only got worse from there.

[BorneAgain]

Aug 23, 2023 18:11:16 GMT -5 The Ichi said:

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that wrestling has never in history benefited from guys not getting along, and that remains one of the single worst myths there is.

And before people point to their favourite example: Bret and Shawn, they forget that as soon as tensions went beyond trying to work everyone, they got in a fight where Bret tried to scalp Shawn and it only got worse from there.

And what's also not mentioned is that that Bret/Shawn didn't even have matches against each other or even consistent week to week segments till close to Survivor Series. The narrative goes that the two were having Austin/McMahon like stuff every show when tensions were at their worst, but that really doesn't hold up that much when looking at Raw reports in 1997. They had some solid angles/interviews against each other sure, but they weren't that much more frequent than what Bret was doing with Austin, and even quality wise, Hitman vs Stone Cold segments worked just as well and the two of them got along famously.

[Venti]

Aug 23, 2023 18:18:44 GMT -5 BorneAgain said:

Aug 23, 2023 18:11:16 GMT -5 The Ichi said:

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that wrestling has never in history benefited from guys not getting along, and that remains one of the single worst myths there is.

And before people point to their favourite example: Bret and Shawn, they forget that as soon as tensions went beyond trying to work everyone, they got in a fight where Bret tried to scalp Shawn and it only got worse from there.

And what's also not mentioned is that that Bret/Shawn didn't even have matches against each other or even consistent week to week segments till close to Survivor Series. The narrative goes that the two were having Austin/McMahon like stuff every show when tensions were at their worst, but that really doesn't hold up that much when looking at Raw reports in 1997. They had some solid angles/interviews against each other sure, but they weren't that much more frequent than what Bret was doing with Austin, and even quality wise, Hitman vs Stone Cold segments worked just as well and the two of them got along famously.

I think ive said this in a different thread, but outside of their actual matches I never saw why Bret vs Shawn was considered such an iconic rivalry.

When I go back and watch 1997 WWF, the best stuff with these guys is Austin vs Bret, Austin and Shawn trying to coexist as tag champs, and Shawn forming DX and feuding with Undertaker, leading to Hell in a Cell.

That was all compelling stuff.

But then there's like, ten minute promos of Shawn whining about Bret, and Bret whining about Shawn and when I watched them, I just thought it was so boring.


And I've totally forgotten this is the Punk thread, I just got excited talking about 90s WWF, so I'll tie it back to the topic lol.

If we got an on screen rivalry between Punk and The Elite and Hangman, I don't think it will be compelling television. It will probably be a bunch of whining, personal attacks, and insider stuff. And even tho I'm not an Elite fan personally, I think all of that stuff would mostly be one-sided from Punk. Cause that dude just can't help himself.

[The Captain]

The Montreal Screwjob inadvertently leading to one of the hottest periods in wrestling history was way more happy accident than "See! REAL HEATZ works!"

[Finish Uncle Muffin’s Story]

It's healthy when people don't like each other but they're willing to do business. Case in point - HHH and Jericho. Genuine, genuine dislike. They still made it work at times for the sake of making money.

What's happening right now isn't healthy. I hope that Tony gets it.

[BorneAgain]

Aug 23, 2023 18:31:45 GMT -5 The Captain said:

The Montreal Screwjob inadvertently leading to one of the hottest periods in wrestling history was way more happy accident than "See! REAL HEATZ works!"

The most damning indictment of Montreal supposedly proving the value of genuine heat between wrestlers is that the real money from that came not from the two people in 1997 that despised each other (Bret and Shawn) but from two people in 1998/1999 who (despite having their occasional issues) did get along; Austin and McMahon.

Heck Hulk Hogan is one of the more polarizing figures in wrestling, and the vast majority of his money drawing feuds (vs. Bockwinkel in the AWA, vs. Orndorff, vs. Andre, vs. Earthquake, vs. Flair in WCW) were people he largely got along with. His most financially successful feud with Savage was notably during a period where they hadn't fallen out (1989).

The inherent upside of cooperating with your dance partner for feuds is that the overall instinct is to do what makes money rather than satisfying egos or settling scores.

[Final Countdown Jones]

Aug 23, 2023 18:42:50 GMT -5 BorneAgain said:

Aug 23, 2023 18:31:45 GMT -5 The Captain said:

The Montreal Screwjob inadvertently leading to one of the hottest periods in wrestling history was way more happy accident than "See! REAL HEATZ works!"

The most damning indictment of Montreal supposedly proving the value of genuine heat between wrestlers is that the real money from that came not from the two people in 1997 that despised each other (Bret and Shawn) but from two people in 1998/1999 who (despite having their occasional issues) did get along; Austin and McMahon.

Heck Hulk Hogan is one of the more polarizing figures in wrestling, and the vast majority of his money drawing feuds (vs. Bockwinkel in the AWA, vs. Orndorff, vs. Andre, vs. Earthquake, vs. Flair in WCW) were people he largely got along with. His most financially successful feud with Savage was notably during a period where they hadn't fallen out (1989).

The inherent upside of cooperating with your dance partner for feuds is that the overall instinct is to do what makes money rather than satisfying egos or settling scores.

It also just takes a specific kind of person to be willing to make someone you hate look good. Not just dislike, but to be at a point where you're taking shots in the media and turnng promos into shoots. So often, people in wrestling try to undermine people they don't like. People can't agree on who comes out on top, they fight over time or who looks good, they don't give as much as they should in a match, they try to get what they want out of a situation and are only concerned with how they look at the end of it. If you're not cooperating on-screen, it's clear that that's going to be an issue. Just look at how the Hangman vs. Punk match was because Punk got in his head some paranoid crap about Hangman trying to assault him, which put him in a mindset that hurt the match entirely.

[Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]]

Punk paid tribute to Terry Funk when Collision ended

No snark, no bullshit, just a nice moment

[Some Guy]

Aug 23, 2023 19:04:53 GMT -5 Final Countdown Jones said:

Aug 23, 2023 18:42:50 GMT -5 BorneAgain said:

The most damning indictment of Montreal supposedly proving the value of genuine heat between wrestlers is that the real money from that came not from the two people in 1997 that despised each other (Bret and Shawn) but from two people in 1998/1999 who (despite having their occasional issues) did get along; Austin and McMahon.

Heck Hulk Hogan is one of the more polarizing figures in wrestling, and the vast majority of his money drawing feuds (vs. Bockwinkel in the AWA, vs. Orndorff, vs. Andre, vs. Earthquake, vs. Flair in WCW) were people he largely got along with. His most financially successful feud with Savage was notably during a period where they hadn't fallen out (1989).

The inherent upside of cooperating with your dance partner for feuds is that the overall instinct is to do what makes money rather than satisfying egos or settling scores.

It also just takes a specific kind of person to be willing to make someone you hate look good. Not just dislike, but to be at a point where you're taking shots in the media and turnng promos into shoots. So often, people in wrestling try to undermine people they don't like. People can't agree on who comes out on top, they fight over time or who looks good, they don't give as much as they should in a match, they try to get what they want out of a situation and are only concerned with how they look at the end of it. If you're not cooperating on-screen, it's clear that that's going to be an issue. Just look at how the Hangman vs. Punk match was because Punk got in his head some paranoid crap about Hangman trying to assault him, which put him in a mindset that hurt the match entirely.

Punk/Hangman wasn't hurt at all by that, it was still a great match.

[Final Countdown Jones]

Aug 23, 2023 23:48:03 GMT -5 Some Guy said:

Aug 23, 2023 19:04:53 GMT -5 Final Countdown Jones said:

It also just takes a specific kind of person to be willing to make someone you hate look good. Not just dislike, but to be at a point where you're taking shots in the media and turnng promos into shoots. So often, people in wrestling try to undermine people they don't like. People can't agree on who comes out on top, they fight over time or who looks good, they don't give as much as they should in a match, they try to get what they want out of a situation and are only concerned with how they look at the end of it. If you're not cooperating on-screen, it's clear that that's going to be an issue. Just look at how the Hangman vs. Punk match was because Punk got in his head some paranoid crap about Hangman trying to assault him, which put him in a mindset that hurt the match entirely.

Punk/Hangman wasn't hurt at all by that, it was still a great match.

I mean aside from the fact I disagree in ways that are not going to change because someone said it was great, CM Punk in his own words said that he had a 'garbage match' because he was too unsure if he could trust Hangman to focus on the match like he wanted to.

"Page's comments during the segment -- a "shoot," in wrestling terms, meaning not a planned part of the show -- infuriated Punk. So much so that he considered not going through with the match out of concern that Page might intentionally attempt to hurt him. But Punk did go through with it and was booked to beat Page to win the AEW title on May 29, 2022.

"And I proceed to have what I think is a garbage match because I'm trying to protect myself on stuff instead of actually just working and trying to put on the best performance I can," Punk said. "I'm keeping an eye out. He chopped me in the mouth one time, and I'm just like, 'OK, did you do that on purpose?' You chip my tooth, and I'm like, 'All right, should I give him a receipt?' It changes the dynamic. It poisoned everything for me, and it made it all really, really ugly, and that was what set all of this off, and here we are over a year later and ain't s--- been done about it.""

If out of the guy's own mouth, the tension between them was a distraction that hurt the match, then clearly it was a distraction that hurt the match.

[Some Guy]

Aug 24, 2023 0:02:45 GMT -5 Final Countdown Jones said:

Aug 23, 2023 23:48:03 GMT -5 Some Guy said:

Punk/Hangman wasn't hurt at all by that, it was still a great match.

I mean aside from the fact I disagree in ways that are not going to change because someone said it was great, CM Punk in his own words said that he had a 'garbage match' because he was too unsure if he could trust Hangman to focus on the match like he wanted to.

"Page's comments during the segment -- a "shoot," in wrestling terms, meaning not a planned part of the show -- infuriated Punk. So much so that he considered not going through with the match out of concern that Page might intentionally attempt to hurt him. But Punk did go through with it and was booked to beat Page to win the AEW title on May 29, 2022.

"And I proceed to have what I think is a garbage match because I'm trying to protect myself on stuff instead of actually just working and trying to put on the best performance I can," Punk said. "I'm keeping an eye out. He chopped me in the mouth one time, and I'm just like, 'OK, did you do that on purpose?' You chip my tooth, and I'm like, 'All right, should I give him a receipt?' It changes the dynamic. It poisoned everything for me, and it made it all really, really ugly, and that was what set all of this off, and here we are over a year later and ain't s--- been done about it.""

If out of the guy's own mouth, the tension between them was a distraction that hurt the match, then clearly it was a distraction that hurt the match.

I don't really care if someone hates the thing they did if the end product was still good. Hitchock didn't like Rope and that movie rules. Colin Farrell doesn't like Miami Vice, etc etc. I get the general idea of him thinking that because sometimes shit didn't go exactly as planned, but the general consensus at the time was super high on the match for a reason.

[Mozenrath]

Aug 23, 2023 18:38:13 GMT -5 Finish Uncle Muffin’s Story said:

It's healthy when people don't like each other but they're willing to do business. Case in point - HHH and Jericho. Genuine, genuine dislike. They still made it work at times for the sake of making money.

What's happening right now isn't healthy. I hope that Tony gets it.

There's also Triple H and Rock. Maybe they got along more later, once they saw they had tremendous chemistry and made an enormous amount of money together, but initially? HBK (and probably Triple H himself, it's less clear with him because he's never been as stupid about making it obvious in the way Shawn did) tried to undermine Rock because he was seen as someone that'd likely land in the Hart camp, and because Rock and Triple H were coming up around the same time, so he was seen as a threat to Triple H's potential success. The irony of course being that, ultimately, they arguably wound up as each other's best opponents, between the IC title ladder match and later in 2000 where both were potentially at their physical peaks.

Also, honestly, I think Bret and Diesel had funner matches than Shawn and Bret did for the most part, maybe due to Nash's physical nature being so different from Bret's, so Bret would approach the match structure almost like a puzzle to solve, which has always been my favorite kind of Bret match. "Hate" is a strong word, the two always got along better than Shawn and Bret did, but there was definitely distrust between the two and major philosophical differences at that time.

By contrast, you have stuff like Batista and Booker T, two guys who really disliked each other and had really shitty matches together in no small part due to that, though for them, it was also just really bad chemistry, their styles did not go together at all.

[Chuck Conry]

Well said stuff by Punk off air tonight. Kudos to him for that.

[Bo Rida]

The stupid thing is the idea they can make money off real life issues only works if people are invested in the motives and want to see the match. You stole my girlfriend type stuff can work, many can relate to that.

The highlights from brawl out was Steel biting Omega, Bucks Vs a door and Kenny saving Larry. That doesn't make me want to see Punk against any of them. I certainly don't want another crappy Hangman fued and toy sale promos won't change that. The only thing I might be interested in is Colt Cabana kicking his ass because a guy looking after his aging mum is relatable but that won't happen.

Omega Vs Punk might be good purely in kayfabe but shooty comments will only detract from any desire to see it.

[Kalmia]

It was nice of Punk to pay tribute to Terry Funk.

I'm sure half of the roster would have been glad to do so given the opportunity though. Sting had some pretty legendary matches against Funk, for example.

[firsttimelongtime]

Aug 23, 2023 18:11:16 GMT -5 The Ichi said:

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that wrestling has never in history benefited from guys not getting along, and that remains one of the single worst myths there is.

And before people point to their favourite example: Bret and Shawn, they forget that as soon as tensions went beyond trying to work everyone, they got in a fight where Bret tried to scalp Shawn and it only got worse from there.

Hogan and Savage popped buyrates in WCW. Bret and Shawn led to the introduction of the Mr McMahon character. Punk and Ryback popped a PPV buyrate. Doesn’t Eddie actually hate Claudio?

[Mid-Carder]

Aug 23, 2023 23:14:28 GMT -5 Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] said:

Punk paid tribute to Terry Funk when Collision ended

No snark, no bullshit, just a nice moment

Terry Funk will be forever immortalised by having been mentioned in the Scrum!

[Final Countdown Jones]

Aug 24, 2023 0:10:04 GMT -5 Some Guy said:

Aug 24, 2023 0:02:45 GMT -5 Final Countdown Jones said:

I mean aside from the fact I disagree in ways that are not going to change because someone said it was great, CM Punk in his own words said that he had a 'garbage match' because he was too unsure if he could trust Hangman to focus on the match like he wanted to.

"Page's comments during the segment -- a "shoot," in wrestling terms, meaning not a planned part of the show -- infuriated Punk. So much so that he considered not going through with the match out of concern that Page might intentionally attempt to hurt him. But Punk did go through with it and was booked to beat Page to win the AEW title on May 29, 2022.

"And I proceed to have what I think is a garbage match because I'm trying to protect myself on stuff instead of actually just working and trying to put on the best performance I can," Punk said. "I'm keeping an eye out. He chopped me in the mouth one time, and I'm just like, 'OK, did you do that on purpose?' You chip my tooth, and I'm like, 'All right, should I give him a receipt?' It changes the dynamic. It poisoned everything for me, and it made it all really, really ugly, and that was what set all of this off, and here we are over a year later and ain't s--- been done about it.""

If out of the guy's own mouth, the tension between them was a distraction that hurt the match, then clearly it was a distraction that hurt the match.

I don't really care if someone hates the thing they did if the end product was still good. Hitchock didn't like Rope and that movie rules. Colin Farrell doesn't like Miami Vice, etc etc. I get the general idea of him thinking that because sometimes shit didn't go exactly as planned, but the general consensus at the time was super high on the match for a reason.

But in this case it's not just "It could have been better", it's him directly saying he wasn't able to give it the focus it deserved because he was distracted by the lack of trust he had in Hangman not hurting him. It's less "He hated the match so it was bad", but an objective fact that the guy's head was so consumed with that worry that he wasn't focused on his job enough.