Kalmia
King Koopa
Happy to be here
Posts: 11,710
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Post by Kalmia on Dec 16, 2022 13:08:12 GMT -5
I did say in the live thread that he reminded me of Ospreay, but that was just the hairstyle.
This whole idea of "generic guys" being a business killer is ridiculous because the hottest period in pro-wrestling was headlined by Goldberg and Austin. Two bald guys in black trunks.
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Post by Cyno on Dec 16, 2022 13:08:48 GMT -5
The Jericho-Andretti match had a nice bump in viewership and the highest rated quarter hour after the first quarter among the 18-49 demo. The facts don't care about your obsolete feelings. Yeah, he isn’t going to respond to this but man, the moment the quarters came out and it was basically confirmed his match was top overrules any and all “casual fans” argument because those people might have heard from their friends to watch the show and clearly they did. Oh and Negan, my offer in another thread is open. Prove your findings or stop talking about it. He responded to it, just in a way that doesn't really get what made the segment appealing. I'd just block the guy but he derails every single thread he posts in with his "CaSuAl ViEwErS" gimmick, so it won't actually accomplish anything.
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Post by eJm on Dec 16, 2022 13:11:09 GMT -5
Here’s my question, Negan, and this’ll be the last time I ask;
Why do you care? Why are you so desperate for mainstream acceptance? Why does it matter to you personally?
The industry is in a healthy place, at least in the West. WWE and AEW are doing well, Impact’s doing well, ROH’ll be back in January touring, the indies are in a good place for the most part. And in the East, AJPW is making a slow comeback, NOAH has associations with the big two American companies, hell, NJPW are in such a good place, they outbidded WWE for Sasha Banks. It’s not a perfect industry but it’s better than two years ago.
If the industry is healthy and people can make money regardless of if they’re on Kelly Clarkson’s talk show or whatever, why does it concern you that it isn’t? Why is all of this important to you that you’re not able to escape 1985?
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Post by Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby on Dec 16, 2022 13:11:48 GMT -5
I did say in the live thread that he reminded me of Ospreay, but that was just the hairstyle. This whole idea of "generic guys" being a business killer is ridiculous because the hottest period in pro-wrestling was headlined by Goldberg and Austin. Two bald guys in black trunks. Plus, building on how this is a story where his generic look was important to how the story played out, it's an echo of a story beat that was done previously with X-Pac and John Cena. Y'know. Probably two of the most mainstream hit wrestlers to ever be mainstream hits. (Yes, X-Pac didn't last the test of time, but if we're talking about hitting the mainstream, X-Pac was one of the most well known names in wrestling at the height of the Monday Night Wars. That matters to this conversation.)
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Post by Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby on Dec 16, 2022 13:21:10 GMT -5
Here’s my question, Negan, and this’ll be the last time I ask; Why do you care? Why are you so desperate for mainstream acceptance? Why does it matter to you personally? The industry is in a healthy place, at least in the West. WWE and AEW are doing well, Impact’s doing well, ROH’ll be back in January touring, the indies are in a good place for the most part. And in the East, AJPW is making a slow comeback, NOAH has associations with the big two American companies, hell, NJPW are in such a good place, they outbidded WWE for Sasha Banks. It’s not a perfect industry but it’s better than two years ago. If the industry is healthy and people can make money regardless of if they’re on Kelly Clarkson’s talk show or whatever, why does it concern you that it isn’t? Why is all of this important to you that you’re not able to escape 1985? I just want to echo this sentiment. I've talked before about how I'm a big Marvel fan, and that I can't say that the MCU being the biggest thing in pop culture feels like a triumph or whatever. It just is. It's people I don't know being into a version of the thing I like that isn't the version I like. It's only relevant when it means that people I do know are interested in talking with me about the two versions and comparing and contrasting them together - which, y'know what, is a really nice bonus. But I'd still be reading 80's Iron Man and 00's She-Hulk instead of watching the newest shows and movies, because ultimately, that's what I'm actually there for. I'm a big Transformers fan. I could not care less about the Transformers movies being some of the biggest hits of the last 20 years, except insofar as that has funneled money into the Transformers stuff that I care about: toys of non-movie characters, and thoughtful comic books that are probably some of the best things I've ever read. (No, seriously. If you don't know what is up with Transformers comics, I will happily explain, but some really genuinely special stuff happened in the 10's.) In fact, the parts I care about have actually wormed their way into the mainstream more and more over time, which has some interesting parallels to wrestling that I think are worth talking about if we want to talk about the place things have in mainstream US pop culture. But...well, if that's the topic, I'd rather talk about what is, and this conversation is very rarely about what actually is. If what someone wants is to have friends be into the show they're into...that's pretty much independent of what is actually mainstream. I have friends that would love brutal Stardom main event matches, and that's true regardless of whether Syuri would be a mainstream hit in the US. There are absolutely people who want their wrestlers huge and jacked, but the data just isn't there to suggest that huge and jacked wrestlers would do numbers in 2022 (and citing their success in the 80's ignores the sheer, overwhelming popularity of that physique in other parts of pop culture, which has not been a thing since and ignores parallels to other pop cultural trends). "A show I like" is not the same thing as a successful show, and that applies to everybody. Whatever your tastes are, they are not 100% lined up with "the mainstream," because "the mainstream" is a broad aggregate of many many many many people all having their own independent tastes, none of which are actually in lockstep with the statistical average.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Dec 16, 2022 13:24:02 GMT -5
I just don't understand the expenditure of energy in "I literally don't care if anyone liked the show, people who don't watch the show theoretically might not". Even if it wasn't just a weird smokescreen for trying to turn your own preferences into some kind of broader value statement on the industry and how actually your opinions are the 'right ones that really matter'. Action Andretti doesn't need to have movies calling for him to be in them. He's still relatively new to wrestling and only just landing in AEW, not given any opportunity to develop an identity or refine himself as a character yet. He doesn't need to be the top star premiere talent who is seen as a marketable name to the mainstream. THat's not just unrealistic for today, that was unrealistic back in any boom era anyone wants to lionize; the bulk of any given roster never penetrated the mainstream to people who didn't watch the show. Hell, the biggest stars in wrestling have almost universally bombed and sucked when Hollywood came knocking because the interest in them was always real minimal. Steve Austin's megastar crossover appeal, one of the most clear cases of a wrestler becoming a pop culture institution, f***ing bombed in the lead role and most of his film career is scattered direct to video crap. John Cena's film career was mostly off-beat comedies and kid's movies for the longest time and it took him breaking away from wrestling for moreshow business pursuits to change that and find some more lead roles. They may mesmerize the smark fans with their very obviously chereographed acrobatics but thats all they will do. That's literally all they need to do and the fact that you somehow see this as a bad thing means that maybe AEW just isn't for you, and instead of trying to turn that into some kind of philosophical statement about how actually that's their loss and problem and it means they're never going to make it, just take it on the chin? "Guy who doesn't like wrestling and posts on a wrestling forum about how wrestling should be less like wrestling" is such a baffling guy to be.
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FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Particularly fond of muffins.
Posts: 16,435
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Post by FinalGwen on Dec 16, 2022 13:26:28 GMT -5
Do you think a casual TV viewer would see the guy in your profile pic and name and think "boy, another middle aged white guy with a beard and leather jacket, very original" and switch over? If Negan was called "John" and he showed up without the barbed wire bat, wearing a plain white t shirt and jeans and had absolutely no charisma whatsoever? Yes. No way would anyone remember him or take him seriously. Infact, I'd argue Negan wouldn't even still be alive in the show if it wasn't for the presence and charisma of Jeffrey Dean Morgan. No disrespect intended to JDM, but like, the casual viewer who's just flicking through is gonna be no more captivated by the guy looking like he's going through a midlife crisis than a guy flying around the ring in bespoke colourful tights. Truth be told, he's not even the only guy I've seen from that year of media who was a middle aged white guy with a beard, leather jacket and barbed wire baseball bat, and I preferred the other one, he had more of a distinctive costume.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2022 13:49:09 GMT -5
Here’s my question, Negan, and this’ll be the last time I ask; Why do you care? Why are you so desperate for mainstream acceptance? Why does it matter to you personally? The industry is in a healthy place, at least in the West. WWE and AEW are doing well, Impact’s doing well, ROH’ll be back in January touring, the indies are in a good place for the most part. And in the East, AJPW is making a slow comeback, NOAH has associations with the big two American companies, hell, NJPW are in such a good place, they outbidded WWE for Sasha Banks. It’s not a perfect industry but it’s better than two years ago. If the industry is healthy and people can make money regardless of if they’re on Kelly Clarkson’s talk show or whatever, why does it concern you that it isn’t? Why is all of this important to you that you’re not able to escape 1985? Because I want wrestling to be popular again. The wrestling we are getting today pales in comparison to the wrestling I grew up watching. Even now when I look back and compare the two, it's night and day. That's not nostalgia either. It's pretty obvious. Most wrestlers these days are just spot monkeys who barely look any different to the guys I see in the gym. That's not body shaming either. These guys look in shape for the most part... but if they're standing across the ring from prime Hulk Hogan or prime Ultimate Warrior, they would've been laughed out of the building. Look at a Will Osperay match when he does that whole "We're gonna reverse our moves for 1 minute and then pose" - It's chereographed, cringey rubbish that basically sums up everything that's wrong with the business these days. Everyone does a Canadian Destroyer now. Sometimes it's even through a table and that would be perfectly fine if it actually ENDED THE MATCH... But no. They get up like it's absolutely no problem and then the match ends with a roll up or some other anti climactic garbage. There's zero psychology whatsoever. I'm not saying the wrestling business is on its knees or whatever. There's plenty of companies to work for now. I'm saying in terms of popularity in the mainstream world, it's fallen off massively. The reason for this is very clear but the problem is, most of these internet fans relate more to these skinny, spot monkey Indy guys so they will never admit it to themselves. To these fans, it's "Thank god we don't have guys like Warrior, Batista, Goldberg and Hogan anymore" ... When in reality, when we had those guys, wrestling actually mattered. Now it's just a "niche". No different to things like Anime or Doctor Who or whatever other "out there interest" a small minority of people might have. I can't remember the last time I met a wrestling fan who just started watching. It's always somebody who watched since the 80s, 90s or Ruthless Aggression era. Ask yourself why that is. It's because the guys who were on top back then were actually special. That's my explanation.
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Post by Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby on Dec 16, 2022 14:02:03 GMT -5
I can't remember the last time I met a wrestling fan who just started watching. It's always somebody who watched since the 80s, 90s or Ruthless Aggression era. Ask yourself why that is. It's because the guys who were on top back then were actually special. Do you think, maybe, just maybe, that has something to do with the fact that you're an adult (in your 40's from the sound of it) and most adults have pretty set preferences for entertainment and that most people get into wrestling when they're younger than you are now? How many teens and preteens are in this informal survey, perchance?
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Dec 16, 2022 14:07:30 GMT -5
I've met people who only recently got into wrestling. They exist. They exist a lot, and the entire cognitive bias of "I don't see them but I'm going to project what I think they want or like" is and has always been the entire issue here.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2022 14:09:09 GMT -5
I can't remember the last time I met a wrestling fan who just started watching. It's always somebody who watched since the 80s, 90s or Ruthless Aggression era. Ask yourself why that is. It's because the guys who were on top back then were actually special. Do you think, maybe, just maybe, that has something to do with the fact that you're an adult (in your 40's from the sound of it) and most adults have pretty set preferences for entertainment and that most people get into wrestling when they're younger than you are now? How many teens and preteens are in this informal survey, perchance? I am 29. And I have a pretty large following on Twitter where I sometimes bring up the topic of wrestling and as you'd expect, the people in my mentions who stopped watching always tell me they stopped watching for the exact reasons I constantly mention. 1. The wrestlers are too generic and small 2. There's no blood (Only from the WWE fans) 3. The storylines are boring 4. It's too predictable 5. Usually some comment about some spot looking ridiculous (Ricochet vs Will Osperay was one they mentioned a lot but any time something looks "fake" gets battered too. A recent example would be the New Day/Pretty Deadly chair throw spot.)
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FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Particularly fond of muffins.
Posts: 16,435
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Post by FinalGwen on Dec 16, 2022 14:13:55 GMT -5
Here’s my question, Negan, and this’ll be the last time I ask; Why do you care? Why are you so desperate for mainstream acceptance? Why does it matter to you personally? The industry is in a healthy place, at least in the West. WWE and AEW are doing well, Impact’s doing well, ROH’ll be back in January touring, the indies are in a good place for the most part. And in the East, AJPW is making a slow comeback, NOAH has associations with the big two American companies, hell, NJPW are in such a good place, they outbidded WWE for Sasha Banks. It’s not a perfect industry but it’s better than two years ago. If the industry is healthy and people can make money regardless of if they’re on Kelly Clarkson’s talk show or whatever, why does it concern you that it isn’t? Why is all of this important to you that you’re not able to escape 1985? Because I want wrestling to be popular again. The wrestling we are getting today pales in comparison to the wrestling I grew up watching. Even now when I look back and compare the two, it's night and day. That's not nostalgia either. It's pretty obvious. Most wrestlers these days are just spot monkeys who barely look any different to the guys I see in the gym. That's not body shaming either. These guys look in shape for the most part... but if they're standing across the ring from prime Hulk Hogan or prime Ultimate Warrior, they would've been laughed out of the building. Look at a Will Osperay match when he does that whole "We're gonna reverse our moves for 1 minute and then pose" - It's chereographed, cringey rubbish that basically sums up everything that's wrong with the business these days. Everyone does a Canadian Destroyer now. Sometimes it's even through a table and that would be perfectly fine if it actually ENDED THE MATCH... But no. They get up like it's absolutely no problem and then the match ends with a roll up or some other anti climactic garbage. There's zero psychology whatsoever. I'm not saying the wrestling business is on its knees or whatever. There's plenty of companies to work for now. I'm saying in terms of popularity in the mainstream world, it's fallen off massively. The reason for this is very clear but the problem is, most of these internet fans relate more to these skinny, spot monkey Indy guys so they will never admit it to themselves. To these fans, it's "Thank god we don't have guys like Warrior, Batista, Goldberg and Hogan anymore" ... When in reality, when we had those guys, wrestling actually mattered. Now it's just a "niche". No different to things like Anime or Doctor Who or whatever other "out there interest" a small minority of people might have.
I can't remember the last time I met a wrestling fan who just started watching. It's always somebody who watched since the 80s, 90s or Ruthless Aggression era. Ask yourself why that is. It's because the guys who were on top back then were actually special. That's my explanation. The highest rated episode of Doctor Who was getting 16.1 million people to tune in. For context, the UK had a population of 56.25 million people at that point, so that's over a third of the population, not bad for an out there interest for a small minority. Now, does that mean that when Doctor Who's last episode gets a rating of 5.295 million that it's failing? No, because back in 1979 there were only a few channels and one of the competitors was on strike. We have to look at the media ecosystem to see why Doctor Who, and indeed wrestling, isn't as big as it used to be. There are no big, all encompassing audience of casual fans that will turn one show into the zeitgeist any more. No episode of Game Of Thrones, The Walking Dead or any prestige series ever got or likely will ever get the ratings that the Doctor Who story "City Of Death" once got in the UK, a much much smaller country. The landscape is just too fractured, there's too much competition from the internet, from streaming services, from a vast world of different culture to explore. And you know this, this is brought up every time this tired argument happens, but you're still convinced that if we just had a few more big roidy guys around the whole world would suddenly be focused on wrestling again like it was once upon a time.
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Zone Was Wrong
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Currently living off the high that AEW brings every Wednesday and Friday
Posts: 16,200
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Post by Zone Was Wrong on Dec 16, 2022 14:14:58 GMT -5
AEW's 18-whatever numbers are exactly the reason TNT/TBS love them so much. They're attracting new fans no matter what anyone thinks. Overall viewership means squat when compared to those key viewership and they're doing great in those. Those are probably the best measurement in "casual fans" and overall growth as can be imo.
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Post by Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby on Dec 16, 2022 14:17:07 GMT -5
Do you think, maybe, just maybe, that has something to do with the fact that you're an adult (in your 40's from the sound of it) and most adults have pretty set preferences for entertainment and that most people get into wrestling when they're younger than you are now? How many teens and preteens are in this informal survey, perchance? I am 29. And I have a pretty large following on Twitter where I sometimes bring up the topic of wrestling and as you'd expect, the people in my mentions who stopped watching always tell me they stopped watching for the exact reasons I constantly mention. 1. The wrestlers are too generic and small 2. There's no blood (Only from the WWE fans) 3. The storylines are boring 4. It's too predictable 5. Usually some comment about some spot looking ridiculous (Ricochet vs Will Osperay was one they mentioned a lot but any time something looks "fake" gets battered too. A recent example would be the New Day/Pretty Deadly chair throw spot.) Y'know what, credit where credit is due: this is the most substantive reply you've ever made to my arguments with you. I still think "what my Twitter followers think" is...pretty much as filtered as you're going to get for a wide question like this, but hey, at least this is an answer. Still doesn't really address this question though: would you prefer if wrestling were the way you like it, or would you prefer if wrestling were more popular? Do you accept that those are not 100% the same thing?
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Post by kingoftheindies on Dec 16, 2022 14:17:52 GMT -5
I know a lot of people who got into wrestling because of guys like Will Ospreay, but find wrestling in North America boring because they cannot do what Will can.
Popularity is rather subjective and it feels like someone is projecting his beliefs
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Kalmia
King Koopa
Happy to be here
Posts: 11,710
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Post by Kalmia on Dec 16, 2022 14:19:02 GMT -5
Do you think, maybe, just maybe, that has something to do with the fact that you're an adult (in your 40's from the sound of it) and most adults have pretty set preferences for entertainment and that most people get into wrestling when they're younger than you are now? How many teens and preteens are in this informal survey, perchance? I am 29. And I have a pretty large following on Twitter where I sometimes bring up the topic of wrestling and as you'd expect, the people in my mentions who stopped watching always tell me they stopped watching for the exact reasons I constantly mention. 1. The wrestlers are too generic and small 2. There's no blood (Only from the WWE fans) 3. The storylines are boring 4. It's too predictable 5. Usually some comment about some spot looking ridiculous (Ricochet vs Will Osperay was one they mentioned a lot but any time something looks "fake" gets battered too. A recent example would be the New Day/Pretty Deadly chair throw spot.) So even if you still amazingly made every single wrestler into a 6'4" generic monster, the other issues would still be there and people wouldn't watch. If AEW did turn into the land of giants with Attitude Era booking, I'd stop watching it. That's not what I want from wrestling. I'd suspect many others on this board might stop too. They might pick up some new watchers, but they'd lose a lot of old ones. There is no single monolith of wrestling fans and to act like all that's holding wrestling back from being mega-hot again is the size of the wrestlers is really close-minded. If modern wrestling isn't for you, that's fine. But it is what many others want. Find a promotion that suits your likes instead of trying to shape AEW into it.
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Zone Was Wrong
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Currently living off the high that AEW brings every Wednesday and Friday
Posts: 16,200
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Post by Zone Was Wrong on Dec 16, 2022 14:21:39 GMT -5
Really wish some people would stop derailing every thread around here with this "casual fan" shit all the damn time. I'd so much rather discuss this awesome and historic moment. I know the whole point of forums is discussion but this topic has been beaten to death in other threads. Make a catch all thread for this crap and stop bringing it up in every other thread. PLEASE.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Dec 16, 2022 14:23:37 GMT -5
AEW's 18-whatever numbers are exactly the reason TNT/TBS love them so much. They're attracting new fans no matter what anyone thinks. Overall viewership means squat when compared to those key viewership and they're doing great in those. Those are probably the best measurement in "casual fans" and overall growth as can be imo. AEW and WWE consistently place in the top cable shows for the night! Consistently! AEW loses some nights only to basketball! A regularly reposted/screencapped tweet I see is "Welcome to Twitter. Here is your copy of the Communist Manifesto and a season pass to Monday Night RAW for some reason" from back in 2015 and which still gets used today because wrestling will trend strong and consistently. It's one of the most active weekly fanbases on the website and it's a year-round juggernaut because it doesn't take breaks. There's a lot of people who watched wrestling when it was mega popular and a fad many years ago who aren't watching again. That isn't a failure on wrestling for the same reason that heavy metal not being played on MTV anymore isn't some condemnation against its existence. Trends change. Tastes change. But what's insanely frustrating here is how much wrestling is still big and strong in the modern media landscape, but because some people don't understand the modern media landscape and think people still channel surf in any meaningful numbers, it's somehow not really big anymore.
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XIII
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 18,569
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Post by XIII on Dec 16, 2022 14:24:08 GMT -5
Even at its peak periods wrestling was niche. To pretend like it wasn’t is a romanticization.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2022 14:24:12 GMT -5
I am 29. And I have a pretty large following on Twitter where I sometimes bring up the topic of wrestling and as you'd expect, the people in my mentions who stopped watching always tell me they stopped watching for the exact reasons I constantly mention. 1. The wrestlers are too generic and small 2. There's no blood (Only from the WWE fans) 3. The storylines are boring 4. It's too predictable 5. Usually some comment about some spot looking ridiculous (Ricochet vs Will Osperay was one they mentioned a lot but any time something looks "fake" gets battered too. A recent example would be the New Day/Pretty Deadly chair throw spot.) Y'know what, credit where credit is due: this is the most substantive reply you've ever made to my arguments with you. I still think "what my Twitter followers think" is...pretty much as filtered as you're going to get for a wide question like this, but hey, at least this is an answer. Still doesn't really address this question though: would you prefer if wrestling were the way you like it, or would you prefer if wrestling were more popular? Do you accept that those are not 100% the same thing? The way I like my wrestling just so happens to be the way it was when it was at its most popular. Big muscley men slapping meat. That's what I like to see. Give me Bruno Sammartino vs Billy Graham any day over two guys who are skinnier than me doing a chereographed acrobatics routine.
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