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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Jan 9, 2023 12:37:35 GMT -5
Have you seen the pinatta on a pole match? Have you heard the interview where he says that as an American he has no interest in any wrestler from Japan or Mexico?Even if I was to drop the race aspect, there is still how he writes every single woman as an unhinged skank? American: building up the feud, creating heat for the characters, having a story to follow along with. Mexican/Japanese (at least from back then when he said this): zero stories, car-crash cruiserweights, no selling the moves, how many flips and dives can you do in meaningless matches. He's said the exact same thing recently about today's wrestling/hunter's booking (just replace "mexican/japanese" with "today's style", and it's saying the same thing), about how the general public wants actual characters to latch onto and want to see win, where "today's wrestling fan" just wants "moves" with no rhyme or reason for anything that's happening. Just put bodies in a ring doing moves and that counts as wrestling, with no backstory for the actual match or anyone to root for. When he made that statement, it was in reaction to the cruiserweights in wcw, and the wwf doing it in return for awhile. If they're mexican/japanese, they couldn't cut promos or do interviews to build up the card, they were being used as "go send out the highfliers to wake up the crowd with a car crash to break up the show" in between the actual stories. Watch his recaps of stuff that he wrote/videos of him going over stuff that he wrote from twenty years ago, he wants lines being said, and promos, and "where's the heat in the story", not "there's no story, just go have a match and do moves". That's not race or skin color, that's style of show that you prefer. "the japanese/mexican style" vs "american style", which in today's world, has become "no stories/all workrate/only moves" vs "actual feuds and good guys/bad guys to root for" edit: from the same time period, think of chris jericho and lance storm working japan as a 100 miles an hour pure sport/doing moves style, and then coming to smoky mountain after that and having to learn how to slow down and work the crowd/"working american". That's what he's talking about. "I don't give a shit about a Mexican guy. I'm from America and that's what I want to see." "You will never ever, ever, ever, ever see the Japanese wrestler or the Mexican wrestler over in American mainstream wrestling." Words from Vince Russo's own dumbass bigot mouth. Nothing about flips, nothing about styles, nothing about any of your own tastes that you've projected onto his actions. He said outright that he is American and does not want to see Mexican wrestlers, full stop. That is absolutely about race. When he made trhat statement, it was in reaction to his own racism. EDIT: Also Gizzark is gone and won't see this but I love that they got slapped with accusations of 'bringing race into it' a few pages back just for calling Russo out on his blatant racism, as if his reputaiton isn't marred by shit exactly like the comments above.
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Post by TOK Is the Target Demo on Jan 9, 2023 12:40:51 GMT -5
I feel that "Pinata on a pole"/"Mexicans and Japanese won't get over here" is to "No one wants to just see flippy matches with no story" as "You people don't get to be world champion" is to "Hunter meant WCW guys." Just a hunch. The match is on youtube. You're free to go there and watch it, come back and explain here how it's racist and have actual discussion instead of taking veiled shots at people who can't fight back. If you cannot understand how "Mexican dude's entire gimmick is carrying around a piñata" and "white boss tells group of Mexican wrestlers that they're going to be competing in a match based around destroying said piñata while his two neo Nazi bodyguards sit in the background" are at the very least racially insensitive, then you're not living in this universe.
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Post by darbus alan on Jan 9, 2023 12:54:42 GMT -5
How is someone this much of a stan for a guy who had one good year of wrestling (that has aged extremely poorly) booking in his entire career followed by several years' worth of dogshit?
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Jan 9, 2023 13:08:55 GMT -5
Everyone went into more detail as to why and my break is almost up, so I’ll just state Russo was always ass cheeks and his writing drove me away from WCW in 2000 because I was baffled as to why the young guns were the frigging heels. When I look back on it it’s a fascinating car wreck, but at no point even if I’m laughing at how stupid an idea is, never do I ever think to myself “yeah, this is what wrestling needs today, more of this.”
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Jan 9, 2023 13:21:36 GMT -5
Everyone went into more detail as to why and my break is almost up, so I’ll just state Russo was always ass cheeks and his writing drove me away from WCW in 2000 because I was baffled as to why the young guns were the frigging heels. When I look back on it it’s a fascinating car wreck, but at no point even if I’m laughing at how stupid an idea is, never do I ever think to myself “yeah, this is what wrestling needs today, more of this.” It is weird to me how there are so many old heads in wrestling that hark to days that you couldn’t pull off now even if you wanted to for various wider global reasons along with the fact that those are the most prominent faces you hear from. Like, for as much as the film industry has relied on franchises and such, everyone trying to do their own MCU has been a concept only a decade old rather than trying to go back to the 30s Hollywood studio system or something.
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Post by DrBackflipsHoffman on Jan 9, 2023 13:38:02 GMT -5
f*** THE GIANTS, NETS SUCK, NICKS IN HELL 2023
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Post by darbus alan on Jan 9, 2023 13:38:05 GMT -5
Another thing is the actual wrestling during Vince Russo's WWF tenure sucked. No sense of in-ring storytelling or psychology. Outside of a few exceptions, the matches were entirely secondary to the crash TV segments.
Not exactly a coincidence that the in-ring product improved dramatically after Russo left for WCW.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2023 13:40:29 GMT -5
The match is on youtube. You're free to go there and watch it, come back and explain here how it's racist and have actual discussion instead of taking veiled shots at people who can't fight back. If you cannot understand how "Mexican dude's entire gimmick is carrying around a piñata" and "white boss tells group of Mexican wrestlers that they're going to be competing in a match based around destroying said piñata while his two neo Nazi bodyguards sit in the background" are at the very least racially insensitive, then you're not living in this universe. 1) when were they presented as neo nazis on wcw television, when turner corporate immediately shut down everything else that even went near a nazi reference. They were (to the best of my knowledge, if I'm wrong, you are free to correct me) presented as the boss' bodyguards, and the guys to go and get the people that the boss wanted to speak with in his office to make matches. In real life they might be nazis, but that (again, I might be wrong and you are free to correct me) wasn't their on screen role on the show itself in front of the audience. 2) what color skin would you like the boss to have to make you feel more comfortable? Russo is a new yawka stereotype himself. If you say "white guy" do you automatically think brooklyn new yawka who says yous guys? 3) This is wrestling, the entire show is racially insensitive. 5 years earlier, kamala couldn't figure out to pin people while the crowd chanted "you are a man" at him. Black people had hard heads so you couldn't hurt them by throwing their head into the turnbuckle. White guys are country bumpkins and southern dandy's, japanese guys throw rice and do karate, black guys love soul and dance, italians do every italian stereotype there is, evil russians, evil iraqis, country singers, farm boys, etc. Welcome to professional wrestling. Everything on the show is a stereotype of something. Is roddy piper wearing a kilt and playing bagpipes racist? Is british bulldog having hail britannia as his theme and carrying around a bulldog racist? Are iron sheik and nikolai volkolf racist? Or are all of those fine, and the mexican guy is different? To compare mexican guys, is el matador fine but juventude holding a pinata racist? Is the lwo "shove all the exact same mexican guys in the same group together" racist? The only thing that was exclusively "mexican" about any of these guys are their masks. Otherwise, they were just guys in tights doing moves like everyone else. 4) the mexican guys on wcw television had zero character qualities other than "mexican guy, some in masks, some not, having matches for no reason to get the crowd excited with the fast paced moves." "Guy who carries a pinata" was a step up as far as character development. The prematch set up is more character development than any of the mexican cruiserweight guys other than konan, eddie or rey had ever had. 5) the match itself is the "10,000 check on a pole battle royal" that has been around in wrestling for decades. Russo didn't create the match especially for them. No one in the match hated each other-no good guys/bad guys, so they need a reason to have a match and an incentive to want to win. The set up was: "the mid card guys are low paid, they don't have each other, so let's have a check on a pole battle royal, and lets put the check inside a prop that one of the people in the match is holding in front of me while I'm making the match". He didn't start singing la cucaracha and send them out in sombreros while doing a mexican hat dance. He didn't make them lawn mowers like the wwf did six years later. It's a match to fill a three hour show to throw everyone on the show, that is comparable to decades of other wrestling matches. So if you have a problem with this match, you'll have a problem with most of the wrestling in the 80s and 90s into the early 2000s. It's a random match to fill a three hour show from twenty years ago, and all of you are acting like it's the mexican revolution "come on you guys, let's fight for your freedom!". You're looking for something to be offended by, and/or you've never seen wrestling before this week.
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Jan 9, 2023 13:49:10 GMT -5
f*** THE GIANTS, NETS SUCK, NICKS IN HELL 2023 And Jeter couldn’t field!
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Post by Helen of Jasper Troy on Jan 9, 2023 13:49:40 GMT -5
My 10 page dissertation about why this totally isn't racist has raised more questions than answers
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Jan 9, 2023 13:51:58 GMT -5
It's a random match to fill a three hour show from twenty years ago, and all of you are acting like it's the mexican revolution "come on you guys, let's fight for your freedom!". You're looking for something to be offended by, and/or you've never seen wrestling before this week. I feel confident in saying that the only person trying to make this a huge huge deal and not just one single, pointable-to case of Vince Russo booking shit in poor taste on a racial basis is you.
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Post by aka Cthulhu on Jan 9, 2023 13:54:38 GMT -5
I'm kinda baffled that a pinata match would be considered "a step up in character development". Arguing that the Mexicools were bad is moot, since that's also bad. As are any other matches or gimmicks that play upon racial stereotypes.
And arguing that wrestling is carny is also pretty moot. Just because it was, doesn't mean that it should continue. World keeps changing, no reason that pro wrestling should not. Like any other form of media, it shouldn't stick to the old ways. New ways should always adjust and try to be better.
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Post by darbus alan on Jan 9, 2023 13:54:49 GMT -5
Vince Russo is a piece of shit from Long Island, not Brooklyn. Only borough of NYC he'd fit in with is Staten Island. Maybe some of the scummier neighborhoods of Queens.
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Post by Stu on Jan 9, 2023 13:55:15 GMT -5
@batfanman Dude, I'm just going to suggest you take a break and move on from this thread. This is a battle you clearly won't win. And one more suggestion regarding your posting style: Sometimes less is more.
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Ben Wyatt
Crow T. Robot
Are You Gonna Go My Way?
I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
Posts: 41,801
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Jan 9, 2023 14:09:04 GMT -5
If you cannot understand how "Mexican dude's entire gimmick is carrying around a piñata" and "white boss tells group of Mexican wrestlers that they're going to be competing in a match based around destroying said piñata while his two neo Nazi bodyguards sit in the background" are at the very least racially insensitive, then you're not living in this universe. 1) when were they presented as neo nazis on wcw television, when turner corporate immediately shut down everything else that even went near a nazi reference. They were (to the best of my knowledge, if I'm wrong, you are free to correct me) presented as the boss' bodyguards, and the guys to go and get the people that the boss wanted to speak with in his office to make matches. In real life they might be nazis, but that (again, I might be wrong and you are free to correct me) wasn't their on screen role on the show itself in front of the audience. 2) what color skin would you like the boss to have to make you feel more comfortable? Russo is a new yawka stereotype himself. If you say "white guy" do you automatically think brooklyn new yawka who says yous guys? 3) This is wrestling, the entire show is racially insensitive. 5 years earlier, kamala couldn't figure out to pin people while the crowd chanted "you are a man" at him. Black people had hard heads so you couldn't hurt them by throwing their head into the turnbuckle. White guys are country bumpkins and southern dandy's, japanese guys throw rice and do karate, black guys love soul and dance, italians do every italian stereotype there is, evil russians, evil iraqis, country singers, farm boys, etc. Welcome to professional wrestling. Everything on the show is a stereotype of something. Is roddy piper wearing a kilt and playing bagpipes racist? Is british bulldog having hail britannia as his theme and carrying around a bulldog racist? Are iron sheik and nikolai volkolf racist? Or are all of those fine, and the mexican guy is different? To compare mexican guys, is el matador fine but juventude holding a pinata racist? Is the lwo "shove all the exact same mexican guys in the same group together" racist? The only thing that was exclusively "mexican" about any of these guys are their masks. Otherwise, they were just guys in tights doing moves like everyone else. 4) the mexican guys on wcw television had zero character qualities other than "mexican guy, some in masks, some not, having matches for no reason to get the crowd excited with the fast paced moves." "Guy who carries a pinata" was a step up as far as character development. The prematch set up is more character development than any of the mexican cruiserweight guys other than konan, eddie or rey had ever had. 5) the match itself is the "10,000 check on a pole battle royal" that has been around in wrestling for decades. Russo didn't create the match especially for them. No one in the match hated each other-no good guys/bad guys, so they need a reason to have a match and an incentive to want to win. The set up was: "the mid card guys are low paid, they don't have each other, so let's have a check on a pole battle royal, and lets put the check inside a prop that one of the people in the match is holding in front of me while I'm making the match". He didn't start singing la cucaracha and send them out in sombreros while doing a mexican hat dance. He didn't make them lawn mowers like the wwf did six years later. It's a match to fill a three hour show to throw everyone on the show, that is comparable to decades of other wrestling matches. So if you have a problem with this match, you'll have a problem with most of the wrestling in the 80s and 90s into the early 2000s. It's a random match to fill a three hour show from twenty years ago, and all of you are acting like it's the mexican revolution "come on you guys, let's fight for your freedom!". You're looking for something to be offended by, and/or you've never seen wrestling before this week. Swing and a miss.
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Post by TOK Is the Target Demo on Jan 9, 2023 14:26:39 GMT -5
If you cannot understand how "Mexican dude's entire gimmick is carrying around a piñata" and "white boss tells group of Mexican wrestlers that they're going to be competing in a match based around destroying said piñata while his two neo Nazi bodyguards sit in the background" are at the very least racially insensitive, then you're not living in this universe. 1) when were they presented as neo nazis on wcw television, when turner corporate immediately shut down everything else that even went near a nazi reference. They were (to the best of my knowledge, if I'm wrong, you are free to correct me) presented as the boss' bodyguards, and the guys to go and get the people that the boss wanted to speak with in his office to make matches. In real life they might be nazis, but that (again, I might be wrong and you are free to correct me) wasn't their on screen role on the show itself in front of the audience. 2) what color skin would you like the boss to have to make you feel more comfortable? Russo is a new yawka stereotype himself. If you say "white guy" do you automatically think brooklyn new yawka who says yous guys? 3) This is wrestling, the entire show is racially insensitive. 5 years earlier, kamala couldn't figure out to pin people while the crowd chanted "you are a man" at him. Black people had hard heads so you couldn't hurt them by throwing their head into the turnbuckle. White guys are country bumpkins and southern dandy's, japanese guys throw rice and do karate, black guys love soul and dance, italians do every italian stereotype there is, evil russians, evil iraqis, country singers, farm boys, etc. Welcome to professional wrestling. Everything on the show is a stereotype of something. Is roddy piper wearing a kilt and playing bagpipes racist? Is british bulldog having hail britannia as his theme and carrying around a bulldog racist? Are iron sheik and nikolai volkolf racist? Or are all of those fine, and the mexican guy is different? To compare mexican guys, is el matador fine but juventude holding a pinata racist? Is the lwo "shove all the exact same mexican guys in the same group together" racist? The only thing that was exclusively "mexican" about any of these guys are their masks. Otherwise, they were just guys in tights doing moves like everyone else. 4) the mexican guys on wcw television had zero character qualities other than "mexican guy, some in masks, some not, having matches for no reason to get the crowd excited with the fast paced moves." "Guy who carries a pinata" was a step up as far as character development. The prematch set up is more character development than any of the mexican cruiserweight guys other than konan, eddie or rey had ever had. 5) the match itself is the "10,000 check on a pole battle royal" that has been around in wrestling for decades. Russo didn't create the match especially for them. No one in the match hated each other-no good guys/bad guys, so they need a reason to have a match and an incentive to want to win. The set up was: "the mid card guys are low paid, they don't have each other, so let's have a check on a pole battle royal, and lets put the check inside a prop that one of the people in the match is holding in front of me while I'm making the match". He didn't start singing la cucaracha and send them out in sombreros while doing a mexican hat dance. He didn't make them lawn mowers like the wwf did six years later. It's a match to fill a three hour show to throw everyone on the show, that is comparable to decades of other wrestling matches. So if you have a problem with this match, you'll have a problem with most of the wrestling in the 80s and 90s into the early 2000s. It's a random match to fill a three hour show from twenty years ago, and all of you are acting like it's the mexican revolution "come on you guys, let's fight for your freedom!". You're looking for something to be offended by, and/or you've never seen wrestling before this week. My dude, the first thing in your 1000 word defense of how Russo's booking wasn't extraordinarily racist by wrestling standards is "yeah he booked the Nazis as Nazis until the network made him stop but they weren't explicitly Nazis when they were standing watch over the Mexican guys." I can't even formulate a response to this gish gallop because I'd be screaming into the void.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2023 14:42:08 GMT -5
It's a random match to fill a three hour show from twenty years ago, and all of you are acting like it's the mexican revolution "come on you guys, let's fight for your freedom!". You're looking for something to be offended by, and/or you've never seen wrestling before this week. I feel confident in saying that the only person trying to make this a huge huge deal and not just one single, pointable-to case of Vince Russo booking shit in poor taste on a racial basis is you. When you call me personally a racist, I'm going to respond back and defend myself. Keep it on topic to the thread and I'll leave you alone. Simple. I was called a racist in the thread earlier this morning, so I responded back to that specific post to speak to me directly instead of veiled speaking like I'm not supposed to understand english, and everyone else jumped on me for responding back. I came here to discuss professional wrestling. Not play "how are you a victim" with people seeing racism everywhere. There was an argument in this thread yesterday between two other posters. One brought up the american/mexican/japanese quote that I believe he was using it disingenuously to literally mean "american" "mexican" "japanese", meaning the nationalities and skin color, to which I made a post arguing, watch wcw from the time period to see what the american/mexican/japanese guys were doing on screen and be alive at the time to have seen the years previous of wrestling leading up to this, to know what he was speaking in reference to, as well as the fact that on youtube recently, he has been saying the exact the same thing (if you swap out the words "mexican and japanese" with "today's wrestling) , so his view point has not changed in twenty years and that it is in reference to the style of presentation on the show to the audience, adding credibility to my argument. I thought that that would have been the end of it last night and we could start fresh this morning. I wake up, and I was called a racist in this thread this morning, so I responded back directly to that person, he wrote back, and that was the end of it, until everyone else in the thread jumped on me for responding back and I'm getting accused of causing trouble for responding back to posts that are attacking me personally, rather than debating the topic of the thread. The pinata on a pole match: I keep getting called racist for defending/at least writing about why it isn't racist. I wrote two long paragraphs yesterday, and I just responded to another post about it today just before I started writing this. The response I get back is "RACIST!". I have written previously, and I will again state, that you are free to watch the match on youtube, come back here and write your point of view on why it is racist and why I'm so horrible for not believing that it is racist, and we can have an actual discussion about it, but no one has seemed to actually do so. I defended one quote of russo's that someone else brought up, and I responded to the same poster who was asking about one specific match, both yesterday, both I thought would be done yesterday and we'd be starting new today. I have spoken nicely in this thread with another poster this morning about the 1991 iraq war and the 1993 evil japnese wwf characters, so I didn't come here looking for trouble. I was called a racist, I responded directly back to the person, they wrote back, and that would've been the end of it until everyone else jumped on me for daring to defend myself. I'm not "defending russo" I responded to two specific things and that was it. I'm defending myself against people speaking personally about me. Leave me out of it, and I will stay out it. I have been told that I cannot defend myself, any attack on me the mods have said that they will hold a blindfold over their eyes and pretend that they didn't see anything, and people are pretending to not understand the english language so that I can be used as a punching bag. I don't care what skin color or nationality that people were both with. A large number of you do. I'm arguing the merits of a professional wrestling show, all of you are concerned about what people were born as and how can you be offended to make yourselves feel better. If you don't mention me or talk about me like I'm not supposed to know that you are talking about me, I will happily stay out of this thread and you can have all the fun you want amongst yourselves. Leave me out of it and I'll go away. I was responding to a post directly mentioning me. If you want to ban me because I'm not a racist, that I don't care what people were born as, and that I don't go around seeing race in everything and how can I be offended by it, then go ahead. Leave me out of this thread. I will stay out of this thread. Any mention of me in this thread from here on is on you.
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Post by Stu on Jan 9, 2023 14:46:29 GMT -5
Okay, everyone. Time to move on. This is the final word on the matter. Now, if we need to at least try to shift things into a positive direction, let's talk about Survivor Series 1998.
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Jan 9, 2023 14:50:12 GMT -5
Okay, everyone. Time to move on. This is the final word on the matter. Now, if we need to at least try to shift things into a positive direction, let's talk about Survivor Series 1998. Still weird to me that Vince Russo isn’t just constantly bragging about this one because it’s the most highly regarded thing he’s done. It’d be like if Steven Spielberg ignored Jaws and bragged about directing Ready Player One.
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Post by TOK Is the Target Demo on Jan 9, 2023 14:51:55 GMT -5
Bossman and Shamrock botching the baton toss at SurSer 1998 is Russo saying that all white people are unathletic and no I will not explain further
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