The Problem With EST(V) Matches

[theironyuppie]

In addition to being disappointing, Bianca/Alexa tonight brought some notable issues with Bianca's matches to the surface. They work well when she's against someone good or experienced (which I feel is part of why they've had her in so many matches with women like Bayley/Becky), but still get into rough territory when she's leading. There's a risk of spots falling apart, and it's difficult for heels to get any heat because they're structured with Bianca countering everything while both heel and face commentators sing her praises. Alexa was targeting the shoulder at points but it didn't work story-wise because even afterwards Bianca was still doing her deadlift spots with no issue.

I also don't think they're being helped by going so long, with tonight's hitting 18 minutes before the post-match beatdown. It reminded me of her matches with Iyo as well as that clunky second match with Sonya last year, where the match itself is long but has no suspense because Bianca's in control for most of it. Of course Bianca has strengths and WWE showcases them well, but it's just interesting to me that she's two years into her rocket push yet these issues are still there with her work.

[ThankGodForSidJustice]

As far as tonight goes that match had no business going 18 minutes. Alexa just isn't good enough in ring for that and it looks ridiculous for her to be able to last that long against someone like Bianca who overmatches her so much from a physical standpoint.

However I would agree that selling isn't a strong suit of Bianca's. She reminds me of Charlotte a lot in that aspect in that they are both athletic phenoms who can do pretty much anything especially Bianca but they are very poor at coming off as vulnerable and making their opponents look like a threat to them. You can blame that on them being booked so strong and that's fair but I think a lot it is on them too as they can still sell and emote pain and vulnerability even if they win pretty much all the time. Hulk Hogan was booked as an unbeatable superhero who was pinned only like three times in ten years but he could sell his ass off and make you feel he was in actual danger. It's simply an art and skill that they either aren't good and or just simply don't put much effort into because they think it will make them look "weak". However when you are going over all the time that shouldn't be a concern.

[Fade]

Shit was weird. Match came off very choreographed but both women were all over the place. Alexa..her ring work has never been her strong suit but it’s been rough. And Bianca came off flustered at points which might be the “leading” problem. ThankGodForSidJustice might have a point girl could work on her vulnerability a bit. She’s basically female John Cena (I say that complimentary) but she could always work on that part.

Didn’t help the crowd sucked and was kind of rooting Alexa on at points. And maybe they predicted Bianca would be super over and structured the match that way.

[Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]]

Bianca's matches do have severe issues, her complete lack of selling is really starting to show in every match she does and it feels like no one is telling her she shouldn't be going superhuman every time someone's working on a limb or hits her with a big move, it really takes people out of the moment to me when like Bayley would work on her arm for 10 minutes and then she's doing handsprings and not even grabbing at her arm when it's time for spots

But this is a huge issue with Alexa right now in the sense that her matches have her at like half the speed of her opponent. Both women were off, I don't know what exactly went wrong, but by the end of it, both were busted open hard way and it was a huge mess. Bliss is either out of ring shape from the long layoff or she's not 100 percent, it could be both, but getting her into spots and having her do spots feels like people are trying to drag her to the finish line, to very mixed results.

I had a bad feeling about this match going long and I was right, once they got out of the house show spots, it was a train wreck, idk where the Wyatt stuff is going, but Alexa might need to hang back in ring for awhile... and what I dread most is these two are absolutely wrestling again, they need a street fight or something to cover up Alexa's clear in ring issues at this point.

[Lizuka #BLM]

I do think Bianca consistently has a problem in her matches of being way too dominating to where it doesn't come off like anyone even kind of stands as anything resembling a threat to her and her character would be vastly improved by, like, a kayfabe knee injury for people to target or something to at least have a noticeable weak spot to build stories around.

That said the main problem with that match was Alexa. She just plain wasn't delivering.

[ThankGodForSidJustice]

Jan 3, 2023 2:49:18 GMT -5 Lizuka #BLM said:

I do think Bianca consistently has a problem in her matches of being way too dominating to where it doesn't come off like anyone even kind of stands as anything resembling a threat to her and her character would be vastly improved by, like, a kayfabe knee injury for people to target or something to at least have a noticeable weak spot to build stories around.

That said the main problem with that match was Alexa. She just plain wasn't delivering.

She had to abandon her CrossFit career due to intercostal chrondritis. So there's a built in story right there.

[mistery]

I think last night was one of the biggest indictments yet about Bianca losing steam. She couldn't even get sympathy cheers (in her own home state!) when she was beat down and instead of doing a stretcher job she was basically just grabbing her neck and looking irritated alongside Montez.

The fact that this feud is continuing does not fill me with confidence either. Doesn't help that Alexa complained about not getting the title either, despite intentionally getting herself disqualified.

[Final Countdown Jones]

I wonder if they've been telling her not to do this sort of stuff so she 'looks strong' or if they just taught her to never do it so she looked strong and therefore she never learned in the first place. Like where in the chain of this did the problem come from? Because it feels intentional and people have to be laying out her matches like this.

[Feargus McReddit]

Jan 3, 2023 6:21:14 GMT -5 Final Countdown Jones said:

I wonder if they've been telling her not to do this sort of stuff so she 'looks strong' or if they just taught her to never do it so she looked strong and therefore she never learned in the first place. Like where in the chain of this did the problem come from? Because it feels intentional and people have to be laying out her matches like this.

To play a bit of a conspiracy theorist of sorts, maybe they've told her what you said and lay the matches out because they know full well that the women's roster in general is not as stable as it could be.

It's sort of the same on Smackdown in some ways but some of this feels like they're waiting for people from NXT to be ready to go so they can get fresh talent onboard before deciding people's roles. Like, they probably saw what Vince did with people like Carmella and Zelina where they're GOATs one day and shit the next, and don't want that to happen?

I don't watch like others have but your post and others made me think this could be the logic.

[EoE: Well There's Your Problem]

It all frustrates me so much. Either a wrestler is winning too much and not vulnerable enough, which breeds resentment against that wrestler by the fanbase, or a wrestler doesn’t win enough and is too vulnerable, which breeds contempt from against that wrestler from the fanbase.

Like, I’m honestly not sure if there is one wrestler we can point to and, as a majority within this fanbase, say “This wrestler is being booked flawlessly”.

[SneakMan]

Jan 3, 2023 6:21:14 GMT -5 Final Countdown Jones said:

I wonder if they've been telling her not to do this sort of stuff so she 'looks strong' or if they just taught her to never do it so she looked strong and therefore she never learned in the first place. Like where in the chain of this did the problem come from? Because it feels intentional and people have to be laying out her matches like this.

I think it's a systemic problem, honestly. If you're selling then you can't hit your signature spots, and with WWE's philosophy that every show is potentially someone's first time watching, not hitting your signature spots (or doing your full entrance every time you come out, or...) is unthinkable. Bianca and Charlotte in particular only know what WWE has taught them, so it makes sense that the holes in their game would be way more obvious than, say, Asuka.

[HMARK Center]

Jan 3, 2023 7:13:17 GMT -5 SneakMan said:

Jan 3, 2023 6:21:14 GMT -5 Final Countdown Jones said:

I wonder if they've been telling her not to do this sort of stuff so she 'looks strong' or if they just taught her to never do it so she looked strong and therefore she never learned in the first place. Like where in the chain of this did the problem come from? Because it feels intentional and people have to be laying out her matches like this.

I think it's a systemic problem, honestly. If you're selling then you can't hit your signature spots, and with WWE's philosophy that every show is potentially someone's first time watching, not hitting your signature spots (or doing your full entrance every time you come out, or...) is unthinkable. Bianca and Charlotte in particular only know what WWE has taught them, so it makes sense that the holes in their game would be way more obvious than, say, Asuka.

It's been interesting to read people say lately that WWE is doing a better job of developing young talent than they have in awhile, because it did seem for a long stretch there that the development center and NXT were not really doing a very good job on that front; way too many people who'd come up and leave an impression like they didn't really know what they were doing, and even some who did come up and show they had a lot of talent/physical gifts and have lasted from that generation still seem to have very notable holes in their game (obviously the people who already had long indie/international/national TV experience came in fine). Wondering if the change in management at NXT (Michaels being in charge?) has led to improvements down there.

[msc]

Jan 3, 2023 7:03:05 GMT -5 EoE: Well There's Your Problem said:

It all frustrates me so much. Either a wrestler is winning too much and not vulnerable enough, which breeds resentment against that wrestler by the fanbase, or a wrestler doesn’t win enough and is too vulnerable, which breeds contempt from against that wrestler from the fanbase.

Like, I’m honestly not sure if there is one wrestler we can point to and, as a majority within this fanbase, say “This wrestler is being booked flawlessly”.

Gunther has a strong claim to that throne tbh.

Matt Riddle came closest tbh but also suffered from a terminal case of being Matt Riddle...

[Feargus McReddit]

Jan 3, 2023 7:29:41 GMT -5 HMARK Center said:

Jan 3, 2023 7:13:17 GMT -5 SneakMan said:

I think it's a systemic problem, honestly. If you're selling then you can't hit your signature spots, and with WWE's philosophy that every show is potentially someone's first time watching, not hitting your signature spots (or doing your full entrance every time you come out, or...) is unthinkable. Bianca and Charlotte in particular only know what WWE has taught them, so it makes sense that the holes in their game would be way more obvious than, say, Asuka.

It's been interesting to read people say lately that WWE is doing a better job of developing young talent than they have in awhile, because it did seem for a long stretch there that the development center and NXT were not really doing a very good job on that front; way too many people who'd come up and leave an impression like they didn't really know what they were doing, and even some who did come up and show they had a lot of talent/physical gifts and have lasted from that generation still seem to have very notable holes in their game (obviously the people who already had long indie/international/national TV experience came in fine). Wondering if the change in management at NXT (Michaels being in charge?) has led to improvements down there.

Like, you’d hope so, to be honest.

The big issue before was that NXT was doing what NXT did and the main roster wasn’t making it clear what they wanted from NXT until they got called up and got annoyed about what wasn’t there. So now that the process has one line and you can craft the main roster product to what will help integrate people from developmental easier, you hopefully have talents more prepared for that environment than before.

We’re nowhere near finding out if that’s the case yet but that’s how I see it.

[HMARK Center]

Jan 3, 2023 7:38:55 GMT -5 msc said:

Jan 3, 2023 7:03:05 GMT -5 EoE: Well There's Your Problem said:

It all frustrates me so much. Either a wrestler is winning too much and not vulnerable enough, which breeds resentment against that wrestler by the fanbase, or a wrestler doesn’t win enough and is too vulnerable, which breeds contempt from against that wrestler from the fanbase.

Like, I’m honestly not sure if there is one wrestler we can point to and, as a majority within this fanbase, say “This wrestler is being booked flawlessly”.

Gunther has a strong claim to that throne tbh.

Matt Riddle came closest tbh but also suffered from a terminal case of being Matt Riddle...

I also think when it comes to the bigger picture that you can't get caught up on if Individual Wrestler A or B is getting booked too strong, too weak, or just right, and it's mainly for two reasons:
1. You'll never please everyone, period. "Too strong" to one fan is "too weak" to another, etc. Some fans get irrationally attached to certain talent or irrationally antagonistic against others, and you're going to hear from them and they're going to create a perception, even if those fans are simply a vocal minority.
2. I think a bigger key is that how someone feels they're being booked, again on this line from "too weak" to "too strong", is most often not as much a product of what's impacting an individual wrestler, though that can be the case sometimes, but rather most of the time it's about the larger booking environment of an entire division or even entire promotions. Super simple example from a vastly different/hard to comapre era, of course, but Hulk Hogan was always booked strong, yet most of the time during his run didn't feel like his booking was keeping others from coming off well to the audience, too; but when someone feels *too* strong it likely reflects on how people feel about a larger group of wrestlers, and their booking, as a whole.

Translation: it's likely more of a systemic, institutional issue rather than anything concerning the booking of one particular act.

Jan 3, 2023 7:40:30 GMT -5 Feargus McReddit said:

Jan 3, 2023 7:29:41 GMT -5 HMARK Center said:

It's been interesting to read people say lately that WWE is doing a better job of developing young talent than they have in awhile, because it did seem for a long stretch there that the development center and NXT were not really doing a very good job on that front; way too many people who'd come up and leave an impression like they didn't really know what they were doing, and even some who did come up and show they had a lot of talent/physical gifts and have lasted from that generation still seem to have very notable holes in their game (obviously the people who already had long indie/international/national TV experience came in fine). Wondering if the change in management at NXT (Michaels being in charge?) has led to improvements down there.

Like, you’d hope so, to be honest.

The big issue before was that NXT was doing what NXT did and the main roster wasn’t making it clear what they wanted from NXT until they got called up and got annoyed about what wasn’t there. So now that the process has one line and you can craft the main roster product to what will help integrate people from developmental easier, you hopefully have talents more prepared for that environment than before.

We’re nowhere near finding out if that’s the case yet but that’s how I see it.

It did feel a bit like both back then: you'd get the people Triple H clearly had big plans for, only for Vince to go "the hell's this guy all about, pal?" and book them like shit, but there'd also be talent trained from the ground up by developmental, say, coming into battle royales and coming across like they didn't know how to do worked punches in a corner. It'd just get really weird sometimes.

I would certainly think that the continuity they have now will be a major help in that regard, but I have to imagine there was something off about the training system as a whole down there for awhile. Maybe it was there being way too many people signed at certain points and just not getting the kind of attention they needed, maybe it was training not being taken seriously enough by the office and/or some of the talent, I don't know, but the proof will all be in the pudding, I suppose.

[King Devitt and the Woke Mob]

Yeah, her "Cena-selling" has been irritating me a lot in the past few months.

All she's missing is popping up, and giving the camera a "f*** you" smirk before getting her shit in and no-selling

[Final Countdown Jones]

Jan 3, 2023 6:26:44 GMT -5 Feargus McReddit said:

Jan 3, 2023 6:21:14 GMT -5 Final Countdown Jones said:

I wonder if they've been telling her not to do this sort of stuff so she 'looks strong' or if they just taught her to never do it so she looked strong and therefore she never learned in the first place. Like where in the chain of this did the problem come from? Because it feels intentional and people have to be laying out her matches like this.

To play a bit of a conspiracy theorist of sorts, maybe they've told her what you said and lay the matches out because they know full well that the women's roster in general is not as stable as it could be.

It's sort of the same on Smackdown in some ways but some of this feels like they're waiting for people from NXT to be ready to go so they can get fresh talent onboard before deciding people's roles. Like, they probably saw what Vince did with people like Carmella and Zelina where they're GOATs one day and shit the next, and don't want that to happen?

I don't watch like others have but your post and others made me think this could be the logic.

It's possible, but it's tough for me not to get echoes of "Make sure you make Roman look strong". Getting really overbearing about trying to treat their pegged Big Dominant Stars in a specific way.

[Feargus McReddit]

Jan 3, 2023 8:05:08 GMT -5 Final Countdown Jones said:

It's possible, but it's tough for me not to get echoes of "Make sure you make Roman look strong". Getting really overbearing about trying to treat their pegged Big Dominant Stars in a specific way.

Oh, there is a specific mentality of the people in charge to completely forget what made their most successful years so memorable (having people on the roster across the card with stories and characters people are invested in) and going "Welp, we have one guy on top people want to watch on top and we'll hope the rest will follow".

[asuka007]

As others have said. Too many of Bianca’s matches are primarily about showing how “cool and powerful” she is. So you have this weird thing where the heels feel like the ones fighting from underneath.

Also her selling is very hit or miss. IDK if it’s her, or if they’re telling her to do it that way, but it’s very noticeable at times.

As for last night, I think Bianca also go legit frustrated/annoyed at how clunky the match was. You saw it before when she had a clunky match vs. Sonya awhile back as well. She struggles to hide her frustration when things go wrong at times.

[Some Baritone guy IS REDEEMED!]

Alexa relies very heavily on heat and crowd investment in her matches. She really does well on the Smoke and Mirrors of professional wrestling. Big matches for her need to have a story to them to compensate for the in ring work.

But in a situation like this where she's taking somebody on in what amounts to a random title match with an opponent who doesn't really adapt from opponent to opponent it doesn't exactly play to her strengths.