tafkaga
Samurai Cop
the Dogfather
Posts: 2,124
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Post by tafkaga on Jan 5, 2023 16:17:55 GMT -5
I would put Shawn in the same category as Roddy Piper. In his era, there was no better foil for whoever the top babyface happened to be, but he was never equipped to be the top guy. He could be the Joker like nobody else, but he could never be Batman no matter how hard they tried, but that doesn't make him a lesser character than Batman. I don't think you can rate talent or overall greatness by quantity, length, or quality of title reigns because, after all, pro wrestling is not a competitive sport. I am actually of the opposite belief and believe that wrestling is competitive even if it isn't a sport. Individuals for the most part are not usually just handed their spot unless of specific circumstances and Shawn had alot of people holding his head up. I believe stating that it is not competitive actually does a disservice to the people that have grinded and accomplished what they have. Sure, it's competitive. It's just not a competitive sport. It's theatre, which is also competitive. The difference being that the lead isn't chosen merely based on talent, but on a variety of factors, some of which might be purely aesthetic. That doesn't mean that the lead actor is necessarily better or more important than the supporting actor, because they are all an integral part of the production. Some actors just have those attributes to be a great lead while others have the attributes to be a great supporting star. As I said, Shawn was never going to be a great Batman, but few were as good at being Joker. Just like Roddy Piper could never be Hulk Hogan, but no one else could have played Hogan's foil at the MTV Rock & Wrestling level like Piper, and yet he never held a World title.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Jan 5, 2023 16:26:14 GMT -5
HBK was the guy Vince always wanted to be, the cool, handsome rebel who got all the women, who had a group of equally cool friends who would step on anyone's throat to get what they want. Instead he was an awkward guy who went to military school then worked for his dad.
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Post by eudypfohl on Jan 9, 2023 18:34:07 GMT -5
Fwiw there were always rumors at the time that Michaels was going to make the jump to WCW, as well as reports sometimes that Michaels was backstage at a Nitro. Also little signs sent by the wrestlers..Michaels on RAW would give the nWo hand gesture...Nash comes out on Nitro and right into the camera goes "Right back atcha HBK" holy shit did those late 90s wrestling message boards erupt
Vince fought like hell to stop him from making the jump moreso than he did with any other wrestler
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Post by eudypfohl on Jan 9, 2023 18:38:14 GMT -5
Exactly. He wouldn’t have tried it anywhere else because it wasn’t tolerated. Imagine it with ole Anderson or that ilk of surly mean spirited guys. Didn’t the Harris twins rough him up their last night in wwf ? The Harris twins are among a small number of people that are actually worse folks than Shawn on the 90s roster, they just luckily had no power I've heard about that. But was their backstage conduct at the time actually worse than Michaels? Because I hadnt heard anything one way or the other about how they were in interacting with the rest of the roster.
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fw91
Patti Mayonnaise
FAN Idol All-Star: FAN Idol Season X and *Gavel* 2x Judges' Throwdown winner
Tribe has spoken for 2024 Mets
Posts: 39,064
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Post by fw91 on Jan 9, 2023 18:44:39 GMT -5
Vince fought like hell to stop him from making the jump moreso than he did with any other wrestler Good that he did . He would have died otherwise.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Jan 9, 2023 18:44:48 GMT -5
The Harris twins are among a small number of people that are actually worse folks than Shawn on the 90s roster, they just luckily had no power I've heard about that. But was their backstage conduct at the time actually worse than Michaels? Because I hadnt heard anything one way or the other about how they were in interacting with the rest of the roster. I know basically nothing about their conduct backstage, I just know they are literally Nazis and that breaks the scale
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lionheart21
Patti Mayonnaise
Once did a thing...
Posts: 30,567
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Post by lionheart21 on Jan 9, 2023 19:20:52 GMT -5
At any other time and place in wrestling history outside of down years 90s WWF Shawn would probably be getting his ass whooped daily. Imagine Brock being around and Shawn pulling some shit. LMAO Shawn would only get a chance to do that once
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Post by Ganon83 on Jan 9, 2023 19:28:53 GMT -5
Shawn is such an interesting case to me...Always in peoples upper echelon...some even saying best ever but he never had particularly long runs with the WWE title or memorable ones. His second in ring stint is arguably better than his first and again he was focused on the World Heavyweight. I've just always felt like Michaels' overall importance is romanticized due to all of the outlandishness that surrounded it. I think the big change is that his style really hasn't stood the test of time. Not to say it's bad or anything, but matches of his like the Taker Mania series a decade later has not aged nearly as well as say Four Pillars AJPW from the early 90's or even the Tanahashi-Okada series from a few years after that string of Mania matches. If you want to look at America in comparison, Bret's matches with Owen and the Wembley match with Davey Boy have all aged better than most of Shawn's catalogue. Again, not a shot against Michaels, these are effectively the gold standard of great matches we're talking about here. But the people a decade ago who have put him in the top tier alone with Flair, namely Ross himself, are just wrong even on just a North American basis.
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Post by celtics543 on Jan 12, 2023 11:21:04 GMT -5
Would've been interesting if Vince let Shawn leave and used the money to keep Bret. In hindsight if Shawn had hurt his back at the 1997 Royal Rumble instead of 1998 then maybe that's what would've happened.
Vince loses a locker room headache, Bret never gets his career ended by Goldberg, and things probably still play out the same otherwise because Austin was clearly on the rise and Bret had no issues putting him over.
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tirtefaa
Unicron
If you wanna know the truth, you gotta dig up Johnny Booth.
Posts: 2,865
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Post by tirtefaa on Jan 12, 2023 13:08:39 GMT -5
Would've been interesting if Vince let Shawn leave and used the money to keep Bret. In hindsight if Shawn had hurt his back at the 1997 Royal Rumble instead of 1998 then maybe that's what would've happened. Vince loses a locker room headache, Bret never gets his career ended by Goldberg, and things probably still play out the same otherwise because Austin was clearly on the rise and Bret had no issues putting him over. That seems like very wishful thinking. In all honesty, WWF was better to be rid of Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels. Ushering in a completely fresh era with new stars was better than to try to find room for one of these guys, especially when you had breakout stars in Austin, Rock, Mankind and Triple H. Having either Hart or Michaels around jeopardizes the future of those guys. Add in Kane and Shamrock, and you definitely know someone is getting pushed off to the side. Undertaker already filled the role of the legendary vet. As a WWF fan, 1998 was such a breath of fresh air by not having the old guard around anymore, and I say that as a fan of both Hart and Michaels.
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Post by celtics543 on Jan 12, 2023 13:37:21 GMT -5
Would've been interesting if Vince let Shawn leave and used the money to keep Bret. In hindsight if Shawn had hurt his back at the 1997 Royal Rumble instead of 1998 then maybe that's what would've happened. Vince loses a locker room headache, Bret never gets his career ended by Goldberg, and things probably still play out the same otherwise because Austin was clearly on the rise and Bret had no issues putting him over. That seems like very wishful thinking. In all honesty, WWF was better to be rid of Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels. Ushering in a completely fresh era with new stars was better than to try to find room for one of these guys, especially when you had breakout stars in Austin, Rock, Mankind and Triple H. Having either Hart or Michaels around jeopardizes the future of those guys. Add in Kane and Shamrock, and you definitely know someone is getting pushed off to the side. Undertaker already filled the role of the legendary vet. As a WWF fan, 1998 was such a breath of fresh air by not having the old guard around anymore, and I say that as a fan of both Hart and Michaels. I agree to a point. I think Bret was enough of a professional and cared enough about the future to be a positive in that era. He'd put Austin over and when the time was right he'd put Rock over too.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2023 13:44:06 GMT -5
Is there anyone who can say a nice thing about Shawn from the 90s? The other Kliq guys act like he was just a mischievous little scamp instead of someone that made people's lives miserable.
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tirtefaa
Unicron
If you wanna know the truth, you gotta dig up Johnny Booth.
Posts: 2,865
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Post by tirtefaa on Jan 12, 2023 13:44:20 GMT -5
I think Bret was enough of a professional and cared enough about the future to be a positive in that era. He'd put Austin over and when the time was right he'd put Rock over too. Austin was already over, so it wouldn't make a difference if Hart decided to lose to him. I just genuinely don't see any value in having Hart or Michaels around given this was now the Austin era, and it would have really been tough to see him share the main event with these guys, because...let's be honest, neither of them were going to be shuffling down the card, and in Hart's case, he's made it abundant in numerous interviews and even his book that he was a title mark, so I always like to think who would be forced down the card in order to make Hart champion again? Neither guy was going to be the veteran whose job it was to get over the new guys. Both had egos that needed to be stroked, and at a time when your trying to get over a new batch of guys, you don't need that waiting in the wings. I'll reiterate that WWF in 1998 was way better without Hart or Michaels, and didn't need either of them to put over the new talent.
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Post by celtics543 on Jan 13, 2023 7:07:04 GMT -5
I think Bret was enough of a professional and cared enough about the future to be a positive in that era. He'd put Austin over and when the time was right he'd put Rock over too. Austin was already over, so it wouldn't make a difference if Hart decided to lose to him. I just genuinely don't see any value in having Hart or Michaels around given this was now the Austin era, and it would have really been tough to see him share the main event with these guys, because...let's be honest, neither of them were going to be shuffling down the card, and in Hart's case, he's made it abundant in numerous interviews and even his book that he was a title mark, so I always like to think who would be forced down the card in order to make Hart champion again? Neither guy was going to be the veteran whose job it was to get over the new guys. Both had egos that needed to be stroked, and at a time when your trying to get over a new batch of guys, you don't need that waiting in the wings. I'll reiterate that WWF in 1998 was way better without Hart or Michaels, and didn't need either of them to put over the new talent. We'll agree to disagree. I think Bret was a belt mark but he was also a business guy who enjoyed putting guys over and giving them great matches. Shawn was a malcontent who wouldn't put anyone over. 1998 WWF was better off without him but Bret would have been an asset. You can easily re-write history with the Hart Foundation in place of DX and it doesn't actually change much in the lead-up to Wrestlemania 14. After that Bret takes a little vacation until he comes back away from titles. Maybe a Mick Foley feud. Mick was doing nothing at the time apart from the weird Kane feud/tag team. Deadly Games tournament works out the same way with Rock winning the tournament. Rock and Austin headline Wrestlemania 15 with Bret/HHH on the undercard perhaps. That's off the top of my head but with some more time I think you can easily work Bret into that time period with his attitude than you can HBK. The way it worked out was great and clearly neither were needed for it but I think Bret adds some things. Plus a year or so later you get Bret/Angle, Bret/Benoit, Bret/Jericho, Bret/Malenko etc. Then he rides off into the sunset in 2003 or so.
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