A Little Doo Doo
Salacious Crumb
An unconventional man with unconventional methods.
Posts: 71,355
Member is Online
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Post by A Little Doo Doo on Jan 7, 2023 18:49:32 GMT -5
When his dumbass makes unnecessary tweaks to performers that are perfectly fine as they are, like Keith Lee and Damian Priest.
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Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Jan 7, 2023 18:56:05 GMT -5
He was terrible like 99% of the time only to fall ass backwards into something that caught on and then pretend like that was his plan all along. No, it wasn't because you've been an awful booker way more than you've been a good booker. Kind of makes me wonder how much guys like Patterson were coming up with back in the day because I find it hard to believe that Vince fell off that hard. The revisionism to try make Yesslemania seem like a cogent plan in the years following have been borderline tragic. It's especially galling considering just about everyone involved in Daniel Bryan's ascent have been pretty forthcoming about the fact the company had no such plans for him until the audience pretty much just took over the show and demanded it. Especially as the follow-up was basically Vince then going see I did what you wanted. Now you're going to accept what I want and youre going to f***ing like it
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2023 19:00:41 GMT -5
the one name thing
it may be a little thing in the whole whirlwind of it all but that shit made me wanna shake him and ask him how f***ing stupid are you
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Post by Gerard Gerard on Jan 7, 2023 19:18:13 GMT -5
The revisionism to try make Yesslemania seem like a cogent plan in the years following have been borderline tragic. It's especially galling considering just about everyone involved in Daniel Bryan's ascent have been pretty forthcoming about the fact the company had no such plans for him until the audience pretty much just took over the show and demanded it. Especially as the follow-up was basically Vince then going see I did what you wanted. Now you're going to accept what I want and youre going to f***ing like it Hell, even before we got to Reigns the intention was to have Bryan absolutely flattened by Lesnar at SSlam 2014. Like I get there was no shame losing to Brock, especially then, but it still stinks to high heaven of spite.
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Push R Truth
Patti Mayonnaise
Unique and Special Snowflake, and a pants-less heathen.
Perpetually Constipated
Posts: 39,372
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Post by Push R Truth on Jan 7, 2023 19:23:14 GMT -5
I don't know how else to explain this:
Wrestler I like has some minor flaw? Vince gives up on them sometimes within a single week and has them lost in the lower card masses for eternity. One chance to get over or it's jobberville.
Boring Wrestler with massive flaws/botch issues? Months of failed pushes. Get's 10 chances to get over.
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Post by Big DSR Energy on Jan 7, 2023 19:49:10 GMT -5
News: "IT'S MASSIVE CHAOS BACKSTAGE! RAW HAS BEEN RE-WRITTEN 10 SECONDS BEFORE AIR!"
Raw: *almost exactly the same episode I watched last week*
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Post by HMARK Center on Jan 7, 2023 19:52:10 GMT -5
I gave up on WWE over 15 years ago in large part due to the booking, and it does seem some of the worst aspects of it got worse as the 2000s wore on.
There's a lot of issues that have been hammered home pretty well here: overly scripted promos, the show format being repetitive (especially the super lengthy show-opening promos), running the same matches week after week in lieu of telling any kind of story, the list of well-told issues goes on and on.
For me, I used to sum up my big issue with his approach by saying that too much of what happened on WWE shows felt like when you could make your own cut scenes from 2K video games by taking a pre-made sequences and inserting any wrestlers into them. Vince liked to go on and on about "making movies", "telling stories", "building characters" or whatever, but way, way too often in WWE it just felt like most of the booking was "oh hey, some stuff happened." Not stuff directed by character motivation, not stuff that showed character or plot progression, not stuff that took into consideration past events to shape future developments, just...stuff. Again, like a 2K build-your-own cut scene where you could insert Big John Studd to fake a run-in on an Alberto Del Rio match or something so that Alberto gets rolled up by his opponent, it's just stuff that happens, not anything that's happening because of specific character motivations or goals.
What then made it worse is that WWE's in-ring style too often doesn't feel motivated by stories or past events or what have you; they're too often just built around the basic "hot babyface start, heel cuts off babyface, build heat for awhile, babyface comeback, build to finish" routine. That then created the feeling that the actual matches themselves, and the action that happened in them, weren't important, and then by WWE's own admission at the time "wins and losses don't matter", so you've got feuds that don't really tell a story, matches not really telling a story, and match results that don't matter, all adding up to, uh, what, exactly?
Getting into other promotions really made it sink in how lacking the storytelling felt in WWE, and a lot of that revolved around Vince's whole "shit just kinda happens on this show, I dunno" approach.
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Post by King Devitt and the Woke Mob on Jan 7, 2023 20:25:08 GMT -5
the way everyone talked the same way, as if they were robots reading a thesaurus - ffs no one says medical facility or words like Eviscerates or knocks off Abeyance. If I never hear that word again I would die a happier man. Drives me up the f***ing wall. Sociopath babyfaces and long ass matches where dude kicks out of a neckbreaker and commentary can't believe what they just saw OMG YES. And then the fact that so many people actually love and defend them, and it feels like you're wearing the They Live glasses thinking "do you not see it?"
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Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Jan 7, 2023 20:41:22 GMT -5
Heels can have factions and backups but faces have to be lone guns.
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Post by lockedontarget on Jan 8, 2023 1:12:51 GMT -5
The obsession with branding.
It led to no one talking like people. Everything everyone said had to always be said in a very specific way using very specific buzzwords. You couldn’t mention someone’s name with it also including their branded nickname. Commentators had to say the same lines every time someone made their entrance. Everything had a tagline, everything had a forced transparent brand forced onto it. We can’t ever talk about Wrestlemania without talking about how it will be Stupendous, Finn Balor can’t ever appear without someone saying he’s an Extraordinary man who does Extra-Ordinary things. We can’t go to commercial break without Raw Rolling On.
Even just when it came to match and promo structure, everything was the same. No matter what styles they worked, every wrestler basically wrestled the same match, just the moves were different. Everyone cut the same kind of promo, with the same cadence and emphatic style. Everything had to fit a very specific mold. There was no real variety. You had to work a WWE match. You had to cut a WWE promo. You had to use the WWE words at the right WWE moments.
Stale. Soulless.
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Post by theironyuppie on Jan 8, 2023 1:24:19 GMT -5
the one name thing it may be a little thing in the whole whirlwind of it all but that shit made me wanna shake him and ask him how f***ing stupid are you
Such an odd fixation of his, and it lead to some strange-sounding names like Theory and Riddle and Nox.
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Post by Finish Uncle Muffin’s Story on Jan 8, 2023 8:39:59 GMT -5
When his dumbass makes unnecessary tweaks to performers that are perfectly fine as they are, like Keith Lee and Damian Priest. Man, shout out to Damian Priest for overcoming "HIS DAMIEN SIDE!"
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fg
Unicron
Gaming
Posts: 3,330
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Post by fg on Jan 8, 2023 13:10:58 GMT -5
Booking at the last minute.
Start/stop pushes.
Halting storylines with no on air explanation.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2023 13:58:29 GMT -5
I gave up on WWE over 15 years ago in large part due to the booking, and it does seem some of the worst aspects of it got worse as the 2000s wore on. There's a lot of issues that have been hammered home pretty well here: overly scripted promos, the show format being repetitive (especially the super lengthy show-opening promos), running the same matches week after week in lieu of telling any kind of story, the list of well-told issues goes on and on. For me, I used to sum up my big issue with his approach by saying that too much of what happened on WWE shows felt like when you could make your own cut scenes from 2K video games by taking a pre-made sequences and inserting any wrestlers into them. Vince liked to go on and on about "making movies", "telling stories", "building characters" or whatever, but way, way too often in WWE it just felt like most of the booking was "oh hey, some stuff happened." Not stuff directed by character motivation, not stuff that showed character or plot progression, not stuff that took into consideration past events to shape future developments, just...stuff. Again, like a 2K build-your-own cut scene where you could insert Big John Studd to fake a run-in on an Alberto Del Rio match or something so that Alberto gets rolled up by his opponent, it's just stuff that happens, not anything that's happening because of specific character motivations or goals. What then made it worse is that WWE's in-ring style too often doesn't feel motivated by stories or past events or what have you; they're too often just built around the basic "hot babyface start, heel cuts off babyface, build heat for awhile, babyface comeback, build to finish" routine. That then created the feeling that the actual matches themselves, and the action that happened in them, weren't important, and then by WWE's own admission at the time "wins and losses don't matter", so you've got feuds that don't really tell a story, matches not really telling a story, and match results that don't matter, all adding up to, uh, what, exactly? Getting into other promotions really made it sink in how lacking the storytelling felt in WWE, and a lot of that revolved around Vince's whole "shit just kinda happens on this show, I dunno" approach.That is what broke the preverbial dam as a fan for me , that period of late 2014 till 2018 going into 19 is both what showed me and IMO changed the views of alot of fans. Because that was when the mainstream wrestling was really in a serious down turn and western fans were introdouced to how much better things could be and how much worse they are in WWE. NJPW blew open the doors to new eyes on how great outside WWE the in ring stuff could be. LU showed up and showed how creatively bankrupt WWE (and just mainsream wrestling as a whole at the time) was both in terms of telling cohesiv and consistent storytelling and the characters by putting out the best written wrestling show of all time. And the indies were in a golden age especially creatively. But it was IMO NJPW and LU that really showed how badly WWE is on both fronts...getting NJPW's rise with western audiences and LU's arrival at pretty much the same time just opened so many eyes to how much better things could be creatively. But Vince is an old carny f*** who lives in a bubble that only echos his own thoughts and views and everything has suffered because of it.
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thehottag
Don Corleone
We're here for one reason only: fame, fortune, & the World Wrestling Federation Tag Team Champions!
Posts: 1,668
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Post by thehottag on Jan 8, 2023 16:34:26 GMT -5
Just how formulaic it is. Like, you can miss months of programming & miss very little. Wrestlers very rarely go through any development,they have to look & act the same every week so they match their action figure.
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Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Jan 8, 2023 17:34:00 GMT -5
The obsession with branding. It led to no one talking like people. Everything everyone said had to always be said in a very specific way using very specific buzzwords. You couldn’t mention someone’s name with it also including their branded nickname. Commentators had to say the same lines every time someone made their entrance. Everything had a tagline, everything had a forced transparent brand forced onto it. We can’t ever talk about Wrestlemania without talking about how it will be Stupendous, Finn Balor can’t ever appear without someone saying he’s an Extraordinary man who does Extra-Ordinary things. We can’t go to commercial break without Raw Rolling On. Even just when it came to match and promo structure, everything was the same. No matter what styles they worked, every wrestler basically wrestled the same match, just the moves were different. Everyone cut the same kind of promo, with the same cadence and emphatic style. Everything had to fit a very specific mold. There was no real variety. You had to work a WWE match. You had to cut a WWE promo. You had to use the WWE words at the right WWE moments. Stale. Soulless. Yeah, everyone had the Ric Flair style of match (which is not a knock against Ric) but he always said he made sure to hit all of his classic spots in all of his matches because he didn't want to make any of the fans feel cheated... but then everyone has moves that they have to do because it's there move... whether it makes sense to happen or not... see something like when Ambrose would hit the rebound clothesline EVERY match regardless of if it killed the momentum or not. Or Charlotte always doing a moonsault to the outside... and when it came time to big matches she turned it into a corkscrew moonsault literally every time... so they would HAVE to get knocked to the outside for a long enough period of time for Charlotte to get into position and do the move... I don't mind wrestlers having signature spots and having things being X's move does help with pops... but... you don't need to do them EVERY time. .
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Post by zrowsdower on Jan 8, 2023 19:11:01 GMT -5
That it reminds me of EA Games.
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Dub H
Crow T. Robot
Captain Pixel: the Game Master
I ❤ Aniki
Posts: 48,468
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Post by Dub H on Jan 8, 2023 19:16:52 GMT -5
When his dumbass makes unnecessary tweaks to performers that are perfectly fine as they are, like Keith Lee and Damian Priest. Man, shout out to Damian Priest for overcoming "HIS DAMIEN SIDE!" The best part of that story is when Damien said it's Damiening time and Damiened all over his opponent
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Post by HMARK Center on Jan 8, 2023 19:36:23 GMT -5
I gave up on WWE over 15 years ago in large part due to the booking, and it does seem some of the worst aspects of it got worse as the 2000s wore on. There's a lot of issues that have been hammered home pretty well here: overly scripted promos, the show format being repetitive (especially the super lengthy show-opening promos), running the same matches week after week in lieu of telling any kind of story, the list of well-told issues goes on and on. For me, I used to sum up my big issue with his approach by saying that too much of what happened on WWE shows felt like when you could make your own cut scenes from 2K video games by taking a pre-made sequences and inserting any wrestlers into them. Vince liked to go on and on about "making movies", "telling stories", "building characters" or whatever, but way, way too often in WWE it just felt like most of the booking was "oh hey, some stuff happened." Not stuff directed by character motivation, not stuff that showed character or plot progression, not stuff that took into consideration past events to shape future developments, just...stuff. Again, like a 2K build-your-own cut scene where you could insert Big John Studd to fake a run-in on an Alberto Del Rio match or something so that Alberto gets rolled up by his opponent, it's just stuff that happens, not anything that's happening because of specific character motivations or goals. What then made it worse is that WWE's in-ring style too often doesn't feel motivated by stories or past events or what have you; they're too often just built around the basic "hot babyface start, heel cuts off babyface, build heat for awhile, babyface comeback, build to finish" routine. That then created the feeling that the actual matches themselves, and the action that happened in them, weren't important, and then by WWE's own admission at the time "wins and losses don't matter", so you've got feuds that don't really tell a story, matches not really telling a story, and match results that don't matter, all adding up to, uh, what, exactly? Getting into other promotions really made it sink in how lacking the storytelling felt in WWE, and a lot of that revolved around Vince's whole "shit just kinda happens on this show, I dunno" approach.That is what broke the preverbial dam as a fan for me , that period of late 2014 till 2018 going into 19 is both what showed me and IMO changed the views of alot of fans. Because that was when the mainstream wrestling was really in a serious down turn and western fans were introdouced to how much better things could be and how much worse they are in WWE. NJPW blew open the doors to new eyes on how great outside WWE the in ring stuff could be. LU showed up and showed how creatively bankrupt WWE (and just mainsream wrestling as a whole at the time) was both in terms of telling cohesiv and consistent storytelling and the characters by putting out the best written wrestling show of all time. And the indies were in a golden age especially creatively. But it was IMO NJPW and LU that really showed how badly WWE is on both fronts...getting NJPW's rise with western audiences and LU's arrival at pretty much the same time just opened so many eyes to how much better things could be creatively. But Vince is an old carny f*** who lives in a bubble that only echos his own thoughts and views and everything has suffered because of it. For me it was getting into ROH back circa late 2004/early 2005 that blew open my perception of what wrestling storytelling could be, specifically when I picked up the Joe vs. Punk II DVD. I went in knowing it'd end in a 60 minute draw, but I still found myself completely into this match involving two guys I had never actually watched before that point, where the key was "they've already gone 60 minutes once, so Punk is retrying his 'headlock first, wear Joe down' strategy but realizing it's trending towards a draw again and tries to change it up, only for Joe to make enough adjustments to bring it to the time limit." Like, there: that was a story, and it was incredible to watch unfold. What modern NJPW showed me was twofold: one was the way that, much like when I got into ROH, you could see the matches telling stories, but beyond that was how the key to the booking wasn't "these two wrestlers had a run-in backstage, so now they have a match/feud" (though that's not unheard of), but instead "these characters are going through arcs and rivalries, and the matches they're in will help develop those arcs based on what happens in the ring and the match outcomes". Like just this past week, watching Ospreay and Jay White having their post-loss meltdowns were great, but they weren't just great promos, they drew from the stories told in their matches, and it just made them resonate as you watched these two guys snap and fall apart in their own ways. And yeah, Lucha Underground then showed "Oh, so you want to see how a scripted wrestling show could actually be done *well*? You want to see over-the-top gimmicks and 'sports entertainment' done in a way where the matches still matter but you get all the insanity you like, too? Here."
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J. Hova
Don Corleone
Emotionally exhausted and morally bankrupt
Posts: 2,051
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Post by J. Hova on Jan 8, 2023 19:48:13 GMT -5
Brand over breakout stars. VKM never wants another star that can walk away and not need the WWE.
Lack of risk taking. I get that some sponsors don't want to be affiliated with more risky content, but there are other sponsors if you are a viable enterprise. I'm not advocating intergender matches, objectifying women, etc. like the downsides of the attitude era, but good lord, take a risk once in a while. The stunning thing is that when the WWE has been its biggest has been when risks were taken (i.e. Hulkamania, Stone Cold, etc.). Now instead of Austin 3:16 we get suffering succotash.
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