markymark
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 18,516
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Post by markymark on Jan 27, 2023 8:10:29 GMT -5
So they were expecting her to be as over as Britt and Jamie and since she couldnt they turned her heel?
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Jan 27, 2023 8:26:04 GMT -5
Didn’t help that they were pairing her off against Hayter, the one that the fanbase has latched onto as their ace more than anyone (even though she’s still nominally heel herself?) and was potentially about to be paired off against Shida, where it almost certainly could’ve happened again. That’s not a knock against Storm, it’s just a bit of a “Wait your turn, they got here first and I’m not done with them” thing… Although I’m not sure that accounts for Dr. Baker, but that’s probably just being cool with her as long as she’s associated with Hayter.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2023 8:28:14 GMT -5
The whole turn with Toni and Saraya has been like the unholy amalgamation of Vince and TNA booking rolled into one.
- Nonsensical heel turns outta nowhere with terms like "homegrowns" being used? We got you.
- Hikaru Shida being considered a homegrown despite having a whole-ass career in Japan prior to AEW? Yeah, sure.
- Teasing a Britt Baker face turn despite the fact that Britt has done nothing remotely face like? Oh hell yeah
- And my personal favorite Vince-ism out of this debacle, DISTRACTION FINISH OFF OF THE THEME MUSIC? f*** yeah buddy let's get it!!
Seriously, the women's division had been trending upward but this is a huge misstep
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Post by Hypnosis on Jan 27, 2023 8:43:25 GMT -5
The whole turn with Toni and Saraya has been like the unholy amalgamation of Vince and TNA booking rolled into one. - Nonsensical heel turns outta nowhere with terms like "homegrowns" being used? We got you. - Hikaru Shida being considered a homegrown despite having a whole-ass career in Japan prior to AEW? Yeah, sure. - Teasing a Britt Baker face turn despite the fact that Britt has done nothing remotely face like? Oh hell yeah - And my personal favorite Vince-ism out of this debacle, DISTRACTION FINISH OFF OF THE THEME MUSIC? f*** yeah buddy let's get it!! Seriously, the women's division had been trending upward but this is a huge misstep I think the Mercedes Mone plans falling through may have been a factor with all these changes.
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asuka007
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 21,134
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Post by asuka007 on Jan 27, 2023 9:12:20 GMT -5
They put her up against Jamie Hayter, who NO ONE is getting cheered against right now. They could have just, given her someone else to do.
Toni!/ heel turn just feels so rushed and out of nowhere. Like at least with Saraya she’s given off those vibes for awhile now. Toni literally did nothing until like two weeks ago. She went from 0-100 in like the span of a week.
Also there ARE pieces in place to make Toni and interesting heel. But they needed to build it up over more time (the women still only getting limited time on the show is an issue here).
And judging by her little promo on Dynamite, that’s not what they’re doing. Wrestletalk called her turn “on dimensional” and yeah that’s basically what it is.
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on Jan 27, 2023 9:14:13 GMT -5
It makes sense. If Jamie is going to be the face champion, she needs heels to work against so turning Saraya/Toni works.
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asuka007
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 21,134
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Post by asuka007 on Jan 27, 2023 9:16:48 GMT -5
If anything AEW needs more top women babyfaces.
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Post by eJm on Jan 27, 2023 9:17:48 GMT -5
I really do feel like this is going to be one of those cases where we'll find out something happened down the line where stuff changed dramatically and they had to pivot in this way.
Is it perfect? No. Is it slightly rushed? Sure. But does it make sense with the landscape now? Especially with the fact that it's better than trying to fight the crowd over how over Hayter is? Honestly, yeah.
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Bo Rida
Fry's dog Seymour
Pulled one over on everyone. Got away with it, this time.
Posts: 23,662
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Post by Bo Rida on Jan 27, 2023 9:45:02 GMT -5
Sensible decision but the execution could have been a lot better. Might be a necessary evil though depends on the plans from here.
All the nonsensical "you people" turns we've suffered and we finally have one with a justifiable reason and they don't make the most of it.
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Post by SneakMan on Jan 27, 2023 9:54:12 GMT -5
The whole turn with Toni and Saraya has been like the unholy amalgamation of Vince and TNA booking rolled into one. - Nonsensical heel turns outta nowhere with terms like "homegrowns" being used? We got you. - Hikaru Shida being considered a homegrown despite having a whole-ass career in Japan prior to AEW? Yeah, sure. - Teasing a Britt Baker face turn despite the fact that Britt has done nothing remotely face like? Oh hell yeah - And my personal favorite Vince-ism out of this debacle, DISTRACTION FINISH OFF OF THE THEME MUSIC? f*** yeah buddy let's get it!! Seriously, the women's division had been trending upward but this is a huge misstep I agree with the distraction finish being very WWE-ish and that the rationale for Toni's heel turn was weak, but everything else is fine. "Outsiders vs originals" is a wrestling storyline that's been done for literal decades, going back to 1990's New Japan if not earlier. Shida is absolutely a homegrown AEW star in that A) she's been in AEW since Day 1, in contrast to Toni and Saraya and B) I doubt a vast majority of viewers knew who she was prior to her AEW run; if Ricky Starks considers himself a homegrown AEW star (and he does) then that term applies just as much to Shida. And Britt already gets cheered so teasing a face turn is just following the crowd reaction.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jan 27, 2023 10:09:30 GMT -5
I felt bad for Toni during Full Gear, girl's worked her tail off but the crowd was just totally behind Hayter...justified, since Hayter's awesome, but I was like "Shit, what did Toni do to deserve boos?"
But if that's what the crowd's doing, you've gotta adjust to it, no point forcing a reaction when it's not there. That said, I do hope in the coming weeks they let Toni speak on that and play up that she felt disrespected by the reaction and blames the "homegrowns" as an extension of blaming the crowd for doing that after all her hard work to keep the division stable after Rosa's injury. It's early enough in the story that I don't see the lack of an overt explanation as a problem yet, but it should be addressed at some point to provide context...and frankly to make it easier to turn Toni back face late on if they so choose, since a sympathetic motivation helps with that.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Jan 27, 2023 10:11:26 GMT -5
I really do feel like this is going to be one of those cases where we'll find out something happened down the line where stuff changed dramatically and they had to pivot in this way. Is it perfect? No. Is it slightly rushed? Sure. But does it make sense with the landscape now? Especially with the fact that it's better than trying to fight the crowd over how over Hayter is? Honestly, yeah. I think a few things happened so the "not getting over as they had hoped" is an oversimplification. Not necessarily wrong but let's look at timeline 1)Toni was pretty over but didn't get her true moment because of Rosa's injury 2)Jayme started getting insanely over 3)Saraya came in which clearly made them pivot away from what they were doing with Jayme 4)Toni did have to take some time off due to injuries from Full Gear 5)Mercedes deal likely fell through 6)Travel issues due to the winter storm around Christmas likely caused them to lose time building what they wanted to build. I think points 4 through 6 likely play most into it.
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Post by eJm on Jan 27, 2023 10:14:40 GMT -5
I really do feel like this is going to be one of those cases where we'll find out something happened down the line where stuff changed dramatically and they had to pivot in this way. Is it perfect? No. Is it slightly rushed? Sure. But does it make sense with the landscape now? Especially with the fact that it's better than trying to fight the crowd over how over Hayter is? Honestly, yeah. I think a few things happened so the "not getting over as they had hoped" is an oversimplification. Not necessarily wrong but let's look at timeline 1)Toni was pretty over but didn't get her true moment because of Rosa's injury 2)Jayme started getting insanely over 3)Saraya came in which clearly made them pivot away from what they were doing with Jayme 4)Toni did have to take some time off due to injuries from Full Gear 5)Mercedes deal likely fell through 6)Travel issues due to the winter storm around Christmas likely caused them to lose time building what they wanted to build. I think points 4 through 6 likely play most into it. Yeah, I think they really wanted Storm to win the belt off Rosa, leading to the match streak meaning a bit more rather than, until Hayter won, being a interim run then as you said, Storm had to take time off, the snow-in leading to not as much substance as they wanted. It was a chain of events that messed things up and forced a change in certain ways. And again, I get people thinking it was rushed but also...it's better to pivot before you're being forced to then dragging your heels and getting everyone fed up of it.
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salz4life
Grimlock
Prichard is a guy who gets that his job is to service his boss.
Posts: 14,045
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Post by salz4life on Jan 27, 2023 10:16:37 GMT -5
The whole turn with Toni and Saraya has been like the unholy amalgamation of Vince and TNA booking rolled into one. - Nonsensical heel turns outta nowhere with terms like "homegrowns" being used? We got you. - Hikaru Shida being considered a homegrown despite having a whole-ass career in Japan prior to AEW? Yeah, sure. - Teasing a Britt Baker face turn despite the fact that Britt has done nothing remotely face like? Oh hell yeah - And my personal favorite Vince-ism out of this debacle, DISTRACTION FINISH OFF OF THE THEME MUSIC? f*** yeah buddy let's get it!! Seriously, the women's division had been trending upward but this is a huge misstep As someone that really doesn't follow Japanese wrestling (and especially the Joshi scene), I consider Shida, even as a veteran of pro wrestling, to be a "homegrown" talent. It might not be officially true, but I really had no clue who she was prior to AEW. That's just me though.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2023 11:22:52 GMT -5
I really do feel like this is going to be one of those cases where we'll find out something happened down the line where stuff changed dramatically and they had to pivot in this way. Is it perfect? No. Is it slightly rushed? Sure. But does it make sense with the landscape now? Especially with the fact that it's better than trying to fight the crowd over how over Hayter is? Honestly, yeah.
I definitely feel like this was the women's division version of a pivot like what happened after MuffinGate, so I'm not entirely unsympathetic, but man it's some rough and cringey television to watch with Toni and Saraya right now, at least to me.
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Post by Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby on Jan 27, 2023 11:24:11 GMT -5
It's not like Toni had a very deep face character to begin with, which was half the problem, really. Not that Hayter is especially well defined, but we've had a year and a half of her being around, making funny faces during Britt promos, and looking awesome; it makes sense that when you have two great workers who are practically blank slates, the more familiar one who comes across as more of a person will get cheered.
Regardless of how it happened, Toni probably needed the heel turn just to try out the creative space where heels often find their voice by not needing to look good all the time.
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Kalmia
King Koopa
Happy to be here
Posts: 11,854
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Post by Kalmia on Jan 27, 2023 11:35:20 GMT -5
I don't mind the Toni heel turn but I do wish they'd give her a chance to explain why. She has reasons to be disgruntled in AEW (only being recognized as full women's champ after she dropped the belt for one) so let us hear it. I'd probably just go with her trying it the AEW way only to get disrespected by the company and the fans so now she's trying it Saraya's way and just taking what she wants. Her motivations don't have to be exactly the same as Saraya's to be on Saraya's side.
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Post by Cyno on Jan 27, 2023 11:50:45 GMT -5
The Britt/Saraya double turn has been hinted at since the buildup to their first match. Like the promos on Saraya's side got more and more selfish sounding and heelish while still ostensibly being a face. Meanwhile the last few promos Britt did had a babyface fire to them. And circumstances sorta force Jamie to turn face because no one is booing her now.
The Toni turn comes off the most "out of nowhere" but it's easy enough to turn her resentment of Jamie into a heel motivation when Jamie is fully on the good side of things. Or how she was only considered a "real" women's champion after she lost the belt to Hayter. Maybe that "boo-boo face" people were pointing out was foreshadowing I dunno.
And quite frankly people complaining about "outsiders versus originals" being too Vince or TNA just tells me the people haven't watched a whole lot of wrestling. It's a tried and true trope that's worked for decades going back to New Japan and the original run of the NWO.
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Post by Celexa Bliss 54 on Jan 27, 2023 11:52:32 GMT -5
Did anyone else click on this, expecting the "update" to be from Doo Doo Dickhead, saying "I hate it!" then unintelligible crying?
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Post by Hypnosis on Jan 27, 2023 12:21:58 GMT -5
Did anyone else click on this, expecting the "update" to be from Doo Doo Dickhead , saying "I hate it!" then unintelligible crying? I'm surprised WWE forcing a Shotzi heel turn back in 2021 didn't break him.
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