tirtefaa
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If you wanna know the truth, you gotta dig up Johnny Booth.
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Post by tirtefaa on Feb 6, 2023 12:24:39 GMT -5
Bray would make for a great manager , leading a new Wyatt like group where he only occasionally gets involved in ring This should have been the plan all along. The guy doesn't strike me as a World title calibre wrestler, or even a guy who should be winning feuds. In fact, sticking to a managerial role would have protected him from a lot of the issues that have hurt his character, especially since any time a member of his family lost a feud, he could easily kick them out of the family and maintain his aura, then recruit someone else.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2023 12:58:50 GMT -5
I say this as someone who 100% was a diehard Undertaker mark growing up to the point that my 6 year old pudgy ass went as him for Halloween one year:
I don't understand how Bray's character translates into a wrestling match. Like... what are his goals? What use does someone with supernatural powers have with a title belt? Lucha Underground somehow managed to blend wrestling as an athletic contest with spoopy shit amazingly well, but WWE has only ever really made it work with Undertaker and Kane, imo.
At least with 'Taker, you had a guy who was just a few inches shy of legit giant territory that could do flying clotheslines, walking the ropes, and cool spectacle things in ring to make you enjoy the match and not think about the absurdity of the whole premise.
So, no. I don't think Bray can carry a wrestling feud. I think he's a great mind at coming up with characters, and he is fantastic at delivery of promos and the like... but in the ring? nah, I'll pass.
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Feb 6, 2023 13:13:58 GMT -5
Conceptually I like a number of Bray’s ideas, he comes off sometimes to me like a modern day Kevin Sullivan in a sense. The issue with some of his programs IMO is how he tries to push some stuff into Lucha Underground territory, and it’d be fine if Bray was in LU but he’s doing magical alternate dimension angles with normally realistic wrestlers like Bryan, Seth, etc, even with Cena in the funhouse it was out of John’s normal element.
Yeah, there was the Undertaker, but Bray’s surviving getting lit on fire, summoning visions with the Wyatt Family and being indestructible years after Taker switched to a more reality-rooted style of wrestling. He still had the theatrics but he became the Hell’s gate, hard punching Taker even after dropping American Badass. So that makes Bray’s stuff on WWE TV even more jarring.
But Uncle Howdy as of now cracks me up, so he doesn’t bother me too much ATM. When he’s at peak health I think he’s a solid and believable brawler.
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Fade
Patti Mayonnaise
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Post by Fade on Feb 6, 2023 13:16:22 GMT -5
I say this as someone who 100% was a diehard Undertaker mark growing up to the point that my 6 year old pudgy ass went as him for Halloween one year: I don't understand how Bray's character translates into a wrestling match. Like... what are his goals? What use does someone with supernatural powers have with a title belt? Lucha Underground somehow managed to blend wrestling as an athletic contest with spoopy shit amazingly well, but WWE has only ever really made it work with Undertaker and Kane, imo. At least with 'Taker, you had a guy who was just a few inches shy of legit giant territory that could do flying clotheslines, walking the ropes, and cool spectacle things in ring to make you enjoy the match and not think about the absurdity of the whole premise. So, no. I don't think Bray can carry a wrestling feud. I think he's a great mind at coming up with characters, and he is fantastic at delivery of promos and the like... but in the ring? nah, I'll pass. Read a thing on wreddit lil while back where they surmised Brays character wasn’t as grounded into the “athletic competition” aspect in wrestling as much as other “dark” characters. Like, since Bray came back, what does he want? Seems like he’s conflicted and wants inner peace. Needs to be translated to make sense as far as wrassling goes.
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Post by poodoojenkins on Feb 6, 2023 13:22:24 GMT -5
I think Bray has a phenomenal mind for the business. But they execution just seems to be a miss more often than not. It looks better on paper than the final product does. I still love Bray though! Having ideas you can't execute doesn't mean you have a great mind for the business. It actually means the opposite.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2023 13:32:37 GMT -5
I am always on this hill.
What works completely against Bray is the enviroment...his ideas (for the most part) are fine but the enviroment in which he tries to blend this stuff into is completely at odds with what he wants to do and no WWE show is structered to make what he wants to do make sense.
LU made it work better than any other company because they created a world in which such things like murder , time travel and literal gods can work along side more grounded characters like a nomad biker , a talent agent and former military special ops and it works and they did not compromise their show just to shove a cool idea on , if they could logically fit it into their world they would.
I am gonna catch flack for this from around here surely but this is why to me Kross works better than Bray does...Kross has got this supernatural aura to him but within WWE he has not crossed that line where as Bray has both crossed the line and jumped 200 sharks at this point.
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Post by Red Mage Riot on Feb 6, 2023 13:33:58 GMT -5
Conceptually I like a number of Bray’s ideas, he comes off sometimes to me like a modern day Kevin Sullivan in a sense. The issue with some of his programs IMO is how he tries to push some stuff into Lucha Underground territory, and it’d be fine if Bray was in LU but he’s doing magical alternate dimension angles with normally realistic wrestlers like Bryan, Seth, etc, even with Cena in the funhouse it was out of John’s normal element. Yeah, there was the Undertaker, but Bray’s surviving getting lit on fire, summoning visions with the Wyatt Family and being indestructible years after Taker switched to a more reality-rooted style of wrestling. He still had the theatrics but he became the Hell’s gate, hard punching Taker even after dropping American Badass. So that makes Bray’s stuff on WWE TV even more jarring. But Uncle Howdy as of now cracks me up, so he doesn’t bother me too much ATM. When he’s at peak health I think he’s a solid and believable brawler. And also, a lot of Taker's theatrics, you could still tie into a match. His signature gimmick match was a Casket Match, and even though they were rarely great, at least wrestling-wise, a Casket match makes sense, you can tie it back to what happens in the ring. Bray doesn't have that. All of his blow-off matches are these overly complex, conceptual messes that don't really have a "hook".
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pinja
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Post by pinja on Feb 6, 2023 14:17:46 GMT -5
I say this as someone who 100% was a diehard Undertaker mark growing up to the point that my 6 year old pudgy ass went as him for Halloween one year: I don't understand how Bray's character translates into a wrestling match. Like... what are his goals? What use does someone with supernatural powers have with a title belt? Lucha Underground somehow managed to blend wrestling as an athletic contest with spoopy shit amazingly well, but WWE has only ever really made it work with Undertaker and Kane, imo. At least with 'Taker, you had a guy who was just a few inches shy of legit giant territory that could do flying clotheslines, walking the ropes, and cool spectacle things in ring to make you enjoy the match and not think about the absurdity of the whole premise. So, no. I don't think Bray can carry a wrestling feud. I think he's a great mind at coming up with characters, and he is fantastic at delivery of promos and the like... but in the ring? nah, I'll pass. If "spoopy" isn't already a word to describe the awful spookiness Bray delivers, you should get inducted into a dictionary.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2023 14:21:43 GMT -5
Conceptually I like a number of Bray’s ideas, he comes off sometimes to me like a modern day Kevin Sullivan in a sense. The issue with some of his programs IMO is how he tries to push some stuff into Lucha Underground territory, and it’d be fine if Bray was in LU but he’s doing magical alternate dimension angles with normally realistic wrestlers like Bryan, Seth, etc, even with Cena in the funhouse it was out of John’s normal element. Yeah, there was the Undertaker, but Bray’s surviving getting lit on fire, summoning visions with the Wyatt Family and being indestructible years after Taker switched to a more reality-rooted style of wrestling. He still had the theatrics but he became the Hell’s gate, hard punching Taker even after dropping American Badass. So that makes Bray’s stuff on WWE TV even more jarring. But Uncle Howdy as of now cracks me up, so he doesn’t bother me too much ATM. When he’s at peak health I think he’s a solid and believable brawler. And also, a lot of Taker's theatrics, you could still tie into a match. His signature gimmick match was a Casket Match, and even though they were rarely great, at least wrestling-wise, a Casket match makes sense, you can tie it back to what happens in the ring. Bray doesn't have that. All of his blow-off matches are these overly complex, conceptual messes that don't really have a "hook".
If professional wrestling is, as JR put it, "Play fighting", then Casket Matches make sense because at least it's still about a personal issue being blown off by both participants wanting to beat the f*** out of each other so badly that they can be put into a casket or be buried alive.
I think part of it is that they started off with Taker as a heel, and on top of that they kept the supernatural part of it ambiguous for a while. It wasn't clear if the character was actually something not human, or just some big bastard who's not all there and has necro-fixation. He was also introduced as being in the pocket of Ted Dibiase, originally, which meant that greed was the main motivation for him attacking babyfaces.
The Fiend... has nothing that simple. Frankly, there's nothing "simple" about the Fiend character at all.
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Feb 6, 2023 14:23:26 GMT -5
I say this as someone who 100% was a diehard Undertaker mark growing up to the point that my 6 year old pudgy ass went as him for Halloween one year: I don't understand how Bray's character translates into a wrestling match. Like... what are his goals? What use does someone with supernatural powers have with a title belt? Lucha Underground somehow managed to blend wrestling as an athletic contest with spoopy shit amazingly well, but WWE has only ever really made it work with Undertaker and Kane, imo. At least with 'Taker, you had a guy who was just a few inches shy of legit giant territory that could do flying clotheslines, walking the ropes, and cool spectacle things in ring to make you enjoy the match and not think about the absurdity of the whole premise. So, no. I don't think Bray can carry a wrestling feud. I think he's a great mind at coming up with characters, and he is fantastic at delivery of promos and the like... but in the ring? nah, I'll pass. Read a thing on wreddit lil while back where they surmised Brays character wasn’t as grounded into the “athletic competition” aspect in wrestling as much as other “dark” characters. Like, since Bray came back, what does he want? Seems like he’s conflicted and wants inner peace. Needs to be translated to make sense as far as wrassling goes. Let’s take Miz for example, know how Meltz always complains about him listing his championships and achievements? See I never minded him doing that, because for all of the wacky segments (they’re not supernatural, but they’re still over the top) Miz will do, him noting those historical things helps his character stay “believable” and rooted in traditional wrestling. I think if Bray made it clearer that he’s a multi time world champion, he’s the son of Mike Rotunda and the ominous aura is part of how he wants to psyche opponents out as a pro wrestler, he wouldn’t come off as “show-breaking” as he sometimes does.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2023 14:45:00 GMT -5
Funny how IMO the best supernatural characters in wrestling Mil and Catrina in recent memory are born out of a grounded realistic tragedy.
Where Bray wants to get way too complex to his own detriment.
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Fade
Patti Mayonnaise
Posts: 38,519
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Post by Fade on Feb 6, 2023 14:51:31 GMT -5
And also, a lot of Taker's theatrics, you could still tie into a match. His signature gimmick match was a Casket Match, and even though they were rarely great, at least wrestling-wise, a Casket match makes sense, you can tie it back to what happens in the ring. Bray doesn't have that. All of his blow-off matches are these overly complex, conceptual messes that don't really have a "hook". If professional wrestling is, as JR put it, "Play fighting", then Casket Matches make sense because at least it's still about a personal issue being blown off by both participants wanting to beat the f*** out of each other so badly that they can be put into a casket or be buried alive.
I think part of it is that they started off with Taker as a heel, and on top of that they kept the supernatural part of it ambiguous for a while. It wasn't clear if the character was actually something not human, or just some big bastard who's not all there and has necro-fixation. He was also introduced as being in the pocket of Ted Dibiase, originally, which meant that greed was the main motivation for him attacking babyfaces.
The Fiend... has nothing that simple. Frankly, there's nothing "simple" about the Fiend character at all.
That’s why his return has been so frustrating. The story was right there: he was excised from the company on a supernatural (whatever the Alexa bliss moment was at WM) and realistic (the alleged Vince creative issues) level. The “follow the white rabbit” thing screamed of a cult leader making his way back & influencing others on a vendetta and crusade against the company. Instead, we’ve gotten some weird therapy-hour with a dude in a hat who may or may not be his brother, an alter ego, or height-distance jumping enthusiast.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2023 15:13:02 GMT -5
Funny how IMO the best supernatural characters in wrestling Mil and Catrina in recent memory are born out of a grounded realistic tragedy. Where Bray wants to get way too complex to his own detriment.
Mil Muertes was the best f***ing "monster" character ever done in professional wrestling, and it was done by a guy that's only 6'1 and 250. And in his matches with Fenix, especially, you really thought he was trying to straight up kill his opponent.
That's how amazing Lucha Underground was.
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Post by sportatorium on Feb 6, 2023 16:48:28 GMT -5
I think he can carry a wrestling feud, but I also think he wants to evolve and color outside the lines all the time. The company he works for really isn't good at supporting that. He's a great creator who needs an editor that he trusts.
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Post by Starshine on Feb 6, 2023 18:32:23 GMT -5
I think Bray has a phenomenal mind for the business. But they execution just seems to be a miss more often than not. It looks better on paper than the final product does. I still love Bray though! Having ideas you can't execute doesn't mean you have a great mind for the business. It actually means the opposite. Adding to that, having ideas on their own is not creativity. Creativity is taking those ideas and managing to make them work within confines of the medium you're working with. If Bray was truly creative, his angles wouldn't come off like complete nonsense.
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Post by canceled4truth on Feb 6, 2023 18:47:59 GMT -5
I’m just glad Bray’s shit stinking under both Vince and HHH has disabused most people of the notion that he’s some misunderstood creative genius being held back by Vince
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tirtefaa
Unicron
If you wanna know the truth, you gotta dig up Johnny Booth.
Posts: 3,271
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Post by tirtefaa on Feb 6, 2023 19:24:09 GMT -5
He's a great creator who needs an editor that he trusts. I disagree. If he was such a great creator, we would see at least an element of that in his performance. Plus, if he wanted to prove anything, then he could have done so during his time away from the company. Also, it seems like he's been provided far more rope than most of the rest of the roster, and so many others have proved more with far less.
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Post by stoptheclocks on Feb 6, 2023 19:36:23 GMT -5
I think wrestling is better off with him in it.
Good, bad, indifferent... just keep throwing shit at the wall my man.
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Chiral
Salacious Crumb
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Post by Chiral on Feb 6, 2023 19:54:22 GMT -5
I remember when he was away that I REALLY wanted him to go to a smaller company/start his own to do a like heightened reality cinematic wrestling show from the jump instead of in the aforementioned confines of WWE (you can prolly find like 30 posts of me saying as much). It's even more of a bummer in hindsight he didn't really ever attempt anything in wrestling outside the WWE bubble while he was away.
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Schizo
Dennis Stamp
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Post by Schizo on Feb 6, 2023 20:22:23 GMT -5
He’s still over as hell with the crowd, rather it makes sence or not, fans outside the IWC still eat that shit up, his act is probably the most diverse in WWE, either you absolutely hate his act, or you just go along with the insanity, Bray’s stuff is just all spectacle and special effects, and Iam not afraid to admit Iam a fan of Bray and his brand or insanity
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