The Cody Rhodes Story Thread (IT'S OVER)

[Kalmia]

What is Heyman talking about? Wrestlemania is the biggest box office. There is no bigger box office than a Wrestlemania.

[Final Countdown Jones]

Heyman really showing his ass on the idea that the narrative equivalent of being stuck in a circular interchange you keep not being able to off-ramp out of is 'storytelling at its best'. Using your absolute biggest show ever to cliffhanger somethign for four months down the line is awful storytelling and it's awful business because you can't make Summerslam as big as Wrestlemania. It won't happen. It's not going to happen. It made all the sense in the world to do it on Sunday and it would have been a huge, crowning moment for Cody instead of playing grab-ass with his momentum. It's okay to give people the result on that first go. It's okay to find a new story to tell for the rematch and actually break out pf the same pattern and playbook you think is solid because it's the shit you saw firsthand in the '80s. They have now introduce a whole four month period for Cody to lose steam in and they just have to pray that he stays this hot all the way through to Summerslam. He might not! They went from a sure thing to the words of soothsayers and just expected it to pay off.

Wrestling promoters have this really fascinating lack of care for fans when it comes to stories because their thought is they can frustrate you to bleed you dry for more money and string you along with promises and disappointment and setup. That it's better to tank a story and kick the can forward until soem later date you can sell another stadium, at the expense of actually giving the audience the moment of catharsis and joy they want. But Cody vs. Roman at Summerslam woudln't sell worse because it's Cody defending against a Roman on the verge of breakdown. It wouldn't be a worse show for pitching a fresher dynamic between the two men. It's just up-its-ass nonsense because wrestling industry lifers learn all their concept of story building from each other and it's just riddled with holes and decisions built around selling tickets in an entirely different media landscape.

[EP 54 is banned from Collision]

This reign is turning into a similar thing to The Streak. Where they squandered perfect moment after perfect moment to end it, then when they finally do, it was underwhelming.

I'm saying Roman with be rolled up by Austin Theory in 2025. That's how they'll book it.

[Nosnorb]

Apr 4, 2023 23:33:31 GMT -5 asuka007 said:

Oh and another problem is that actual finish to the Mania match was the same lazy, overused, boring finish we’ve also been getting for years.

I would say that is the biggest problem with the current Reigns reign. It's either the Usos or Solo sticking their noses in so Roman can win, which means that not only do most of his matches feel the same and therefore each of his feuds feel much the same, it also makes his opponents look like idiots and bottle jobs.

Apart from Sami and Logan Paul, nobody has been elevated by facing Roman.

[polarbearpete]

Apr 4, 2023 23:33:48 GMT -5 Red Mage Riot said:

Apr 4, 2023 23:15:49 GMT -5 polarbearpete said:

Heyman on the booking:

......Is this an "Emperor has no clothes" moment for Heyman? All these years, we've talked about what a genius booker he was/is/could be, but if he had a hand in THIS, and THIS BS is his justification for it......was he always a dope?

Heyman is said to be integral to the booking of the Bloodline stories, though I’m sure he has nothing to do with determining who wins or loses.

[polarbearpete]

Apr 5, 2023 7:04:59 GMT -5 Kalmia said:

What is Heyman talking about? Wrestlemania is the biggest box office. There is no bigger box office than a Wrestlemania.

It reads like he’s saying they made that money already and so there’s more money to be made in continuing with another chase than there is with Cody on top (that’s the “and then what” part of his quote).

[Feargus McReddit]

Apr 5, 2023 7:10:51 GMT -5 Final Countdown Jones said:

It's just up-its-ass nonsense because wrestling industry lifers learn all their concept of story building from each other and it's just riddled with holes and decisions built around selling tickets in an entirely different media landscape.

And even now, the media landscape says that their own logic is faulty. Most mainstream Hollywood blockbusters have the heroes win at the end whilst being affected by the events of the movie because the audience want an escape and want to see good guys triumph. Most TV shows have characters overcome adversity and yeah, not everyone comes out alive or not unchanged but you still have people to root for or want to see how their story goes.

And yeah, there are exceptions to every rule but as mentioned countless times, Infinity War’s ending wasn’t surprising because the heroes lost but because they were so used to the heroes winning so much that a significant loss lead you to what happens next. Roman beating Cody isn’t going to lead people to want to see him triumph because you set things up throughout your months and months of TV to do that because the bad guy kept winning.

[Kalmia]

Apr 5, 2023 7:21:11 GMT -5 polarbearpete said:

Apr 5, 2023 7:04:59 GMT -5 Kalmia said:

What is Heyman talking about? Wrestlemania is the biggest box office. There is no bigger box office than a Wrestlemania.

It reads like he’s saying they made that money already and so there’s more money to be made in continuing with another chase than there is with Cody on top (that’s the “and then what” part of his quote).

Sounds like someone is making excuses for keeping the status quo. I don't blame him, he knows who is signing his cheques. It's just dumb seeing these word salads to try and explain a decision that is being rejected by more of the fanbase than it's being accepted by.

[Bo Rida]

Arguments like Heyman's are so short-term even if wasn't just company line bollocks. You get more money another ppv, great, well done.

The value of Cody winning at wm isn't just for that show it's cementing the whole mythology of the company. It's a big moment that can be shown over and over again for years and in turn sell the idea more big moments can happen at subsequent Wrestlemanias. Kids watching stick around and even if they drift away are more likely to return at some point. Long-term fans are happy to travel across the world to see WM on the promise of what the show is about before a match is announced. When the moment is old enough it can be sold back as nostalgia in various forms.

Reigns winning does almost none of that. The kids leave crying and don't come back, the international fan watches the next wm at home, nobody wants to relive the wm. But hey you sell a few more tickets for a random month.

[Allie Kitsune]

WWE wants you to forever anticipate, but never give to you.

Just forever anticipation, as if people's patience doesn't run out.

[khali]

Heyman is right, I can’t wait for the next chapter:

The next chapter of the story when Drew McIntyre got screwed over in his big hometown moment.

Or when Seth was getting in Roman’s head and got a DQ win.

Or when Finn Balor had the title won until the rope snapped.

This whole storyline sucks because it makes every single face Roman goes up against look like a dork. They get screwed out of their title match and then they just move on with their lives.

Cody talked forever about how he needed to finish the story and win the title his dad never won. And then he got screwed when he had the title won. He came out on Raw and wasn’t even angry! He politely asked for a title shot and didn’t get it! Just another dork.

[Deleted]

Apr 5, 2023 7:21:11 GMT -5 polarbearpete said:

Apr 5, 2023 7:04:59 GMT -5 Kalmia said:

What is Heyman talking about? Wrestlemania is the biggest box office. There is no bigger box office than a Wrestlemania.

It reads like he’s saying they made that money already and so there’s more money to be made in continuing with another chase than there is with Cody on top (that’s the “and then what” part of his quote).

"... and then what?" is kind of Booker's job to figure out. 

It's just craptacular storytelling.  I don't care if they made 8 billion off Wrestlemania and 14 million people hate-watched RAW the next night, it's still craptacular storytelling that's gonna come back to bite them eventually.

[schma]

There was so much wrong with what Heyman said but this bit got me the most:

That’s promotion at its very best. That’s storytelling at its very best. That’s what you want. You want the challenger to come out a bigger star than he would have been if he won because then, where do you go from there? What’s the story to tell? Now, you know the story. It’s Cody’s redemption. It’s coming back from what was just taken from him. From the defeat he just suffered that he didn’t deserve to have inflicted upon him.

If he won, where do you go from there? Really? You talk about Cody's redemption, where does Roman go from there. If Roman loses, that's a compelling story. How does he react? Does he fall to his paranoia like you've been hinting for a year? Does he come back stronger? Does his Bloodline finally man up and break away from him? If Cody wins, his story is that he beat the unbeatable* (I put an asterisk because really when is the last time Roman won without cheating and ref bumps?). A brand new champion to start a brand new era. Roman has been champion for longer than anyone in the past 30+ years. What is the story for the guy who beats him? Really?

Also, what about the other guys. Did Drew get redemption? Seth? Sami? Finn?

What a giant load of crap, but then it's Paul Heyman, so hardly surprising.

[polarbearpete]

Apr 5, 2023 8:28:40 GMT -5 schma said:

There was so much wrong with what Heyman said but this bit got me the most:

That’s promotion at its very best. That’s storytelling at its very best. That’s what you want. You want the challenger to come out a bigger star than he would have been if he won because then, where do you go from there? What’s the story to tell? Now, you know the story. It’s Cody’s redemption. It’s coming back from what was just taken from him. From the defeat he just suffered that he didn’t deserve to have inflicted upon him.

If he won, where do you go from there? Really? You talk about Cody's redemption, where does Roman go from there. If Roman loses, that's a compelling story. How does he react? Does he fall to his paranoia like you've been hinting for a year? Does he come back stronger? Does his Bloodline finally man up and break away from him? If Cody wins, his story is that he beat the unbeatable* (I put an asterisk because really when is the last time Roman won without cheating and ref bumps?). A brand new champion to start a brand new era. Roman has been champion for longer than anyone in the past 30+ years. What is the story for the guy who beats him? Really?

Also, what about the other guys. Did Drew get redemption? Seth? Sami? Finn?

What a giant load of crap, but then it's Paul Heyman, so hardly surprising.

It’s definitely not a hugely popular philosophy, but there are those that love the “heel territory” type of booking. Where the redemption arc would usually be saved for a face and not for a heel like Roman (though I agree with you that the Bloodline falling apart without the titles could have been a fun route to go the rest of the year).

This is obviously getting to be a crazy long reign, but they have still been able to actually grow the product and interest metrics (ratings, attendance, merch) by a large margin since the storyline started and had the fans at a fever pitch for a title switch at least 3 times in the last 8 months (Drew, Sami, Cody), all more than 2 years into the reign.

They just have to be careful that they don’t wait so long that they hurt business. They could be reaching that point soon so I wouldn’t hold off much longer (Summerslam at the latest).

[Final Countdown Jones]

Apr 5, 2023 8:26:54 GMT -5 @thelongandtheshort said:

Apr 5, 2023 7:21:11 GMT -5 polarbearpete said:

It reads like he’s saying they made that money already and so there’s more money to be made in continuing with another chase than there is with Cody on top (that’s the “and then what” part of his quote).

"... and then what?" is kind of Booker's job to figure out. 

It's just craptacular storytelling.  I don't care if they made 8 billion off Wrestlemania and 14 million people hate-watched RAW the next night, it's still craptacular storytelling that's gonna come back to bite them eventually.

"And then what" exposes how many wrestling bookers suck at telling stories, because there's no way they should be this bad at just writing a hero. It's pathetic. That they just can't wrap their heads around tellign a compelling story about a good guy is not only embarrassing, it's completely ahistoric. Look at the business WWE has done with faces on top. Hogan was the hero. Cena was the hero. Austin still manages the tenth most combined days with the WWE title in history despite being on top in the car crash TV era. It's not that there's "more money" in the chase, it's that hack bookers don't know how to do anything but the chase so they fumble the landing when they get past the finish line, realize they forgot to write the rest of the story, and then it underwhelms and everyone goes "Oh I guess he wasn't meant to be on top, at least the chase was worth it". No! It's the booker's fault! Every leg of that is directly the fault of a 'creative mind' that didn't know how to create a situation where the hero wins and it goes somewhere interesting. It's just happened so much that we now internalize the same questions asked to themselves yb people who are bad writing as like, direct truths of the business.

[polarbearpete]

Apr 5, 2023 8:43:28 GMT -5 Final Countdown Jones said:

Apr 5, 2023 8:26:54 GMT -5 @thelongandtheshort said:

"... and then what?" is kind of Booker's job to figure out. 

It's just craptacular storytelling.  I don't care if they made 8 billion off Wrestlemania and 14 million people hate-watched RAW the next night, it's still craptacular storytelling that's gonna come back to bite them eventually.

"And then what" exposes how many wrestling bookers suck at telling stories, because there's no way they should be this bad at just writing a hero. It's pathetic. That they just can't wrap their heads around tellign a compelling story about a good guy is not only embarrassing, it's completely ahistoric. Look at the business WWE has done with faces on top. Hogan was the hero. Cena was the hero. Austin still manages the tenth most combined days with the WWE title in history despite being on top in the car crash TV era. It's not that there's "more money" in the chase, it's that hack bookers don't know how to do anything but the chase so they fumble the landing when they get past the finish line, realize they forgot to write the rest of the story, and then it underwhelms and everyone goes "Oh I guess he wasn't meant to be on top, at least the chase was worth it". No! It's the booker's fault! Every leg of that is directly the fault of a 'creative mind' that didn't know how to create a situation where the hero wins and it goes somewhere interesting. It's just happened so much that we now internalize the same questions asked to themselves yb people who are bad writing as like, direct truths of the business.

It must be something beyond “bad booking” unless nearly everyone is a bad booker. The face champion problem has existed for a long time in modern wrestling in nearly every company.

[Final Countdown Jones]

Apr 5, 2023 8:47:06 GMT -5 polarbearpete said:

Apr 5, 2023 8:43:28 GMT -5 Final Countdown Jones said:

"And then what" exposes how many wrestling bookers suck at telling stories, because there's no way they should be this bad at just writing a hero. It's pathetic. That they just can't wrap their heads around tellign a compelling story about a good guy is not only embarrassing, it's completely ahistoric. Look at the business WWE has done with faces on top. Hogan was the hero. Cena was the hero. Austin still manages the tenth most combined days with the WWE title in history despite being on top in the car crash TV era. It's not that there's "more money" in the chase, it's that hack bookers don't know how to do anything but the chase so they fumble the landing when they get past the finish line, realize they forgot to write the rest of the story, and then it underwhelms and everyone goes "Oh I guess he wasn't meant to be on top, at least the chase was worth it". No! It's the booker's fault! Every leg of that is directly the fault of a 'creative mind' that didn't know how to create a situation where the hero wins and it goes somewhere interesting. It's just happened so much that we now internalize the same questions asked to themselves yb people who are bad writing as like, direct truths of the business.

It must be something beyond “bad booking” unless nearly everyone is a bad booker. The face champion problem has existed for a long time in modern wrestling in nearly every company.

Yes. Unironically yes. People make that same mistake and keep f***ing it up because they wrote a shit storyline, because when someone actually gets it right, it goes over huge.

[krozor]

Heyman's the best bullshit artist on the payroll and he's a guy who understands exactly what he's getting paid to do. They've been going to him to come in and cut promos to prop up and try to spin their terrible booking decisions about Roman specifically since 2015.

[polarbearpete]

Apr 5, 2023 8:48:13 GMT -5 Final Countdown Jones said:

Apr 5, 2023 8:47:06 GMT -5 polarbearpete said:

It must be something beyond “bad booking” unless nearly everyone is a bad booker. The face champion problem has existed for a long time in modern wrestling in nearly every company.

Yes. Unironically yes. People make that same mistake and keep f***ing it up because they wrote a shit storyline, because when someone actually gets it right, it goes over huge.

Beyond booking (or at least why it is so hard to book), I think a lot of the issue stems from the way companies in recent times have to have a delicate balance of pushing the face but also not seeming like they’re “overpushing” the face, because then the audience has the non-kayfabe notion that this person is only champion because he’s the company’s “chosen one” and then there’s backlash because of that. It’s why the wildly popular faces tend to be the ones that the audience also thinks aren’t really company favorites, like Punk, Bryan, Kofimania, etc.

[chrom]

If Heyman wasn't there, he'd be ranting how it was an idiotic decision and they wasted an entire year and did irreversible damage.

But since he's getting a check from them, of course he'll say it's genius.