CMWaters
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Post by CMWaters on Apr 5, 2023 8:58:25 GMT -5
Yes. Unironically yes. People make that same mistake and keep f***ing it up because they wrote a shit storyline, because when someone actually gets it right, it goes over huge. Beyond booking (or at least why it is so hard to book), I think a lot of the issue stems from the way companies in recent times have to have a delicate balance of pushing the face but also not seeming like they’re “overpushing” the face, because then the audience has the non-kayfabe notion that this person is only champion because he’s the company’s “chosen one” and then there’s backlash because of that. It’s why the wildly popular faces tend to be the ones that the audience also thinks aren’t really company favorites, like Punk, Bryan, Kofimania, etc. I'd say the best one before all of them would be Bret Hart. He never seemed over-pushed (at least not to Hogan or later Cena levels), had just the right amount of vulnerability as well as credibility. You could buy him losing at any time, but he had the skills in ring to pull out a win at any time. And at least in his first two runs, he had the right mix of confidence but humbleness (it was only after he returned after losing at Survivor Series 94 that they started to get him the edge that would eventually lead to his heel turn a few years later). |
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Post by polarbearpete on Apr 5, 2023 9:03:36 GMT -5
Beyond booking (or at least why it is so hard to book), I think a lot of the issue stems from the way companies in recent times have to have a delicate balance of pushing the face but also not seeming like they’re “overpushing” the face, because then the audience has the non-kayfabe notion that this person is only champion because he’s the company’s “chosen one” and then there’s backlash because of that. It’s why the wildly popular faces tend to be the ones that the audience also thinks aren’t really company favorites, like Punk, Bryan, Kofimania, etc. I'd say the best one before all of them would be Bret Hart. He never seemed over-pushed (at least not to Hogan or later Cena levels), had just the right amount of vulnerability as well as credibility. You could buy him losing at any time, but he had the skills in ring to pull out a win at any time. And at least in his first two runs, he had the right mix of confidence but humbleness (it was only after he returned after losing at Survivor Series 94 that they started to get him the edge that would eventually lead to his heel turn a few years later). Yes but then we’re talking almost 30 years ago where the backstage machinations and “the machine” being behind someone being held against guys when they get in front of the crowd were not nearly (or at all) as prevalent as they are now, so that becomes tougher. But yeah the blueprint nowadays would probably be someone with some outside cred/not seeming like a handpicked champion groomed by the company, who also can go in the ring, take on all challengers in interesting matches and storylines, doesn’t get too corny for too long (this is where Cody may run into trouble), and then doesn’t keep the title for too long either. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2023 9:14:41 GMT -5
"... and then what?" is kind of Booker's job to figure out.
It's just craptacular storytelling. I don't care if they made 8 billion off Wrestlemania and 14 million people hate-watched RAW the next night, it's still craptacular storytelling that's gonna come back to bite them eventually.
"And then what" exposes how many wrestling bookers suck at telling stories, because there's no way they should be this bad at just writing a hero. It's pathetic. That they just can't wrap their heads around tellign a compelling story about a good guy is not only embarrassing, it's completely ahistoric. Look at the business WWE has done with faces on top. Hogan was the hero. Cena was the hero. Austin still manages the tenth most combined days with the WWE title in history despite being on top in the car crash TV era. It's not that there's "more money" in the chase, it's that hack bookers don't know how to do anything but the chase so they fumble the landing when they get past the finish line, realize they forgot to write the rest of the story, and then it underwhelms and everyone goes "Oh I guess he wasn't meant to be on top, at least the chase was worth it". No! It's the booker's fault! Every leg of that is directly the fault of a 'creative mind' that didn't know how to create a situation where the hero wins and it goes somewhere interesting. It's just happened so much that we now internalize the same questions asked to themselves yb people who are bad writing as like, direct truths of the business.
Wrestling bookers by and large have never moved beyond the territory days in terms of their thought processes and approach.
It made sense for long term heel champions going up against faces going on "The chase ™" when your champ was traveling everywhere and the point was to make YOUR promotion's babyface look good by coming a hair's breadth from beating the dastardly cheating heel.
Once there were no territories anymore, that booking paradigm should have gone extinct.
Or, to approach it another way... how did the WWE/F/WWWF become the biggest promotion in the world? Face champions. Bruno, Backlund, Hogan, Austin, Rock, Cena, etc. The whole booking philosophy was "Watch your hero finally get his hands on the bad guy and kick his ass", and it worked. It worked really well and Vince built his whole empire off of it, and it made the heat feel more visceral when the babyface actually DID lose. Don't even get me started on how WWE creative has forgotten that heels aren't supposed to be cool.
The only reason I can figure they're doing this is because someone higher up decided that "longer title reign = gooder" so that when Roman finally loses that belt after however many days they'll have toppled the insurmountable blah blah blah... and that's just lazy and shitty storytelling that doesn't work anymore now that Kayfabe is well and truly dead.
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thecrusherwi
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Post by thecrusherwi on Apr 5, 2023 9:14:49 GMT -5
"... and then what?" is kind of Booker's job to figure out.
It's just craptacular storytelling. I don't care if they made 8 billion off Wrestlemania and 14 million people hate-watched RAW the next night, it's still craptacular storytelling that's gonna come back to bite them eventually.
"And then what" exposes how many wrestling bookers suck at telling stories, because there's no way they should be this bad at just writing a hero. It's pathetic. That they just can't wrap their heads around tellign a compelling story about a good guy is not only embarrassing, it's completely ahistoric. Look at the business WWE has done with faces on top. Hogan was the hero. Cena was the hero. Austin still manages the tenth most combined days with the WWE title in history despite being on top in the car crash TV era. It's not that there's "more money" in the chase, it's that hack bookers don't know how to do anything but the chase so they fumble the landing when they get past the finish line, realize they forgot to write the rest of the story, and then it underwhelms and everyone goes "Oh I guess he wasn't meant to be on top, at least the chase was worth it". No! It's the booker's fault! Every leg of that is directly the fault of a 'creative mind' that didn't know how to create a situation where the hero wins and it goes somewhere interesting. It's just happened so much that we now internalize the same questions asked to themselves yb people who are bad writing as like, direct truths of the business. I think they like to convince themselves that this is more complicated than it is. Wrestling is a simulated sport and the story people are looking for is not some movie trilogy epic - it's a sports story. People want to tune in to watch people they like win and kick ass. That's about it. Think about it from a sports perspective. "If the Chiefs win, what will the fans look forward to?". They'll look forward to coming back next week and watching the Chiefs kick someone else's ass. And the week after. And the week after that. It's not hard. If you push a babyface people like, they'll never get tired of it. It took like 8 years for people to get tired of Hogan winning every single time. They arguably never got tired of Austin. |
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Apr 5, 2023 9:20:47 GMT -5
Yes. Unironically yes. People make that same mistake and keep f***ing it up because they wrote a shit storyline, because when someone actually gets it right, it goes over huge. Beyond booking (or at least why it is so hard to book), I think a lot of the issue stems from the way companies in recent times have to have a delicate balance of pushing the face but also not seeming like they’re “overpushing” the face, because then the audience has the non-kayfabe notion that this person is only champion because he’s the company’s “chosen one” and then there’s backlash because of that. It’s why the wildly popular faces tend to be the ones that the audience also thinks aren’t really company favorites, like Punk, Bryan, Kofimania, etc. I don't think they need to be the chosen one or get a long-term forever push and go on fifteen months with the belt or anything, but they failed to make even one compelling story for the likes of Bryan or Kofi. Brian got to enjoy a feud with Kane centered aorund him going after his wife, and Kofi got some pretty aimless and uninteresting material before the Brock shitshow. And frankly, other than Orton, he wasn't even really going up against any sort of uppercard caliber challengers in those defenses. They failed to tell interesting stories with Lofi, then it came time for Brock to shit him out in the middle of the ring and kick him back into the void because he hadn't ever been worthy of that spot. |
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Post by polarbearpete on Apr 5, 2023 9:29:45 GMT -5
Beyond booking (or at least why it is so hard to book), I think a lot of the issue stems from the way companies in recent times have to have a delicate balance of pushing the face but also not seeming like they’re “overpushing” the face, because then the audience has the non-kayfabe notion that this person is only champion because he’s the company’s “chosen one” and then there’s backlash because of that. It’s why the wildly popular faces tend to be the ones that the audience also thinks aren’t really company favorites, like Punk, Bryan, Kofimania, etc. I don't think they need to be the chosen one or get a long-term forever push and go on fifteen months with the belt or anything, but they failed to make even one compelling story for the likes of Bryan or Kofi. Brian got to enjoy a feud with Kane centered aorund him going after his wife, and Kofi got some pretty aimless and uninteresting material before the Brock shitshow. And frankly, other than Orton, he wasn't even really going up against any sort of uppercard caliber challengers in those defenses. They failed to tell interesting stories with Lofi, then it came time for Brock to shit him out in the middle of the ring and kick him back into the void because he hadn't ever been worthy of that spot. Those were my examples of faces done right that were accepted by the crowd! Kofi had Smackdown built around him pretty much that entire spring/summer. I thought it was a successful reign with a bad ending. Bryan they didn’t really get a chance to get beyond Kane and see what was next because he had to give up the title. |
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Post by canceled4truth on Apr 5, 2023 9:30:28 GMT -5
They failed to tell interesting stories with Lofi, But he had so many beats to chill and study to! |
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Nosnorb
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Post by Nosnorb on Apr 5, 2023 9:33:27 GMT -5
I don't think they need to be the chosen one or get a long-term forever push and go on fifteen months with the belt or anything, but they failed to make even one compelling story for the likes of Bryan or Kofi. Brian got to enjoy a feud with Kane centered aorund him going after his wife, and Kofi got some pretty aimless and uninteresting material before the Brock shitshow. And frankly, other than Orton, he wasn't even really going up against any sort of uppercard caliber challengers in those defenses. They failed to tell interesting stories with Lofi, then it came time for Brock to shit him out in the middle of the ring and kick him back into the void because he hadn't ever been worthy of that spot. Those were my examples of faces done right that were accepted by the crowd! Kofi had Smackdown built around him pretty much that entire spring/summer. I thought it was a successful reign with a bad ending. Bryan they didn’t really get a chance to get beyond Kane and see what was next because he had to give up the title. John Cena inherited Bryans title reign. It would have ended at Summerslam at the hands of Beastie Boy. |
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Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Apr 5, 2023 9:38:33 GMT -5
Also the way to make sure a face isn't"over pushed" is for them to have set backs.
Hogan was kayfabe injured a lot, Austin was made to jump through hoops by Vince, even Cena would usually get beaten down in segments.
Roman ( who is literally the only person this line fits) always came out on top in segments and matches.
No one wants a hero that never struggles. Even superman gets knocked down.
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Tom Turkey
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Post by Tom Turkey on Apr 5, 2023 9:44:12 GMT -5
Also the way to make sure a face isn't"over pushed" is for them to have set backs. Hogan was kayfabe injured a lot, Austin was made to jump through hoops by Vince, even Cena would usually get beaten down in segments. Roman ( who is literally the only person this line fits) always came out on top in segments and matches. No one wants a hero that never struggles. Even superman gets knocked down. The fun is seeing how the hero overcomes the struggles and win the day. Hogan would ultimately defeat those who hurt him. Austin would get his revenge on Vince more often than not, and usually in the most satisfying way imaginable. Cena… well, I don’t need to explain further about him. |
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Apr 5, 2023 9:50:10 GMT -5
I don't think they need to be the chosen one or get a long-term forever push and go on fifteen months with the belt or anything, but they failed to make even one compelling story for the likes of Bryan or Kofi. Brian got to enjoy a feud with Kane centered aorund him going after his wife, and Kofi got some pretty aimless and uninteresting material before the Brock shitshow. And frankly, other than Orton, he wasn't even really going up against any sort of uppercard caliber challengers in those defenses. They failed to tell interesting stories with Lofi, then it came time for Brock to shit him out in the middle of the ring and kick him back into the void because he hadn't ever been worthy of that spot. Those were my examples of faces done right that were accepted by the crowd! Kofi had Smackdown built around him pretty much that entire spring/summer. I thought it was a successful reign with a bad ending. Bryan they didn’t really get a chance to get beyond Kane and see what was next because he had to give up the title. Yeah but in both cases they're guys who the crowd loved, who got their big moment with a chase, and then there was a disappointing follow-up. They're victims of the "And then what?" where they won and there wasn't any story they found worth telling afterward. In my mind they stand as exactly the issues of bookers failing to know what to do after they go through with the big win. Fans loved them, fans coudl have been there every step fo the way for compelling stories, and we at least got to see Kofi's run live out in full, and it failed to really mean all that much. Both guys stand as amazing examples of how bookers f***ed it up when it was the easiest thing in the world. |
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Post by polarbearpete on Apr 5, 2023 9:51:01 GMT -5
Also the way to make sure a face isn't"over pushed" is for them to have set backs. Hogan was kayfabe injured a lot, Austin was made to jump through hoops by Vince, even Cena would usually get beaten down in segments. Roman ( who is literally the only person this line fits) always came out on top in segments and matches. No one wants a hero that never struggles. Even superman gets knocked down. Reigns as a face was booked as coming up short time and time again, though. He’s been booked more strongly as a heel than he was as a face. |
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Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Apr 5, 2023 9:55:28 GMT -5
Also the way to make sure a face isn't"over pushed" is for them to have set backs. Hogan was kayfabe injured a lot, Austin was made to jump through hoops by Vince, even Cena would usually get beaten down in segments. Roman ( who is literally the only person this line fits) always came out on top in segments and matches. No one wants a hero that never struggles. Even superman gets knocked down. Reigns as a face was booked as coming up short time and time again, though. He’s been booked more strongly as a heel than he was as a face. Like literally only against Brock. Everyone else Roman steamrolled. |
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Post by polarbearpete on Apr 5, 2023 9:56:21 GMT -5
Reigns as a face was booked as coming up short time and time again, though. He’s been booked more strongly as a heel than he was as a face. Like literally only against Brock. Everyone else Roman steamrolled. That’s true, those stand out the most though as they were big failures at Mania in matches he was expected to win. Kind of similar to Cody Sunday. He also had some high profile losses to Rollins, Bray, Sheamus, Owens, Strowman and Balor in that time period too. |
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khali
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Post by khali on Apr 5, 2023 9:57:18 GMT -5
Also the way to make sure a face isn't"over pushed" is for them to have set backs. Hogan was kayfabe injured a lot, Austin was made to jump through hoops by Vince, even Cena would usually get beaten down in segments. Roman ( who is literally the only person this line fits) always came out on top in segments and matches. No one wants a hero that never struggles. Even superman gets knocked down. The fun is seeing how the hero overcomes the struggles and win the day. Hogan would ultimately defeat those who hurt him. Austin would get his revenge on Vince more often than not, and usually in the most satisfying way imaginable. Cena… well, I don’t need to explain further about him. Austin would often get his revenge *on the same show*. If you watch a lot of those Raws, it’s very common for it to open with Vince getting something over on Austin, and Austin getting some measure of revenge or humiliation on Vince by the end of the show. Very rarely would Austin end the show in trouble. Somehow WWE knew then something they’ve forgotten: heels can always get their heat back. They can get theirs and things will be okay. |
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schma
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Post by schma on Apr 5, 2023 9:57:47 GMT -5
Yes. Unironically yes. People make that same mistake and keep f***ing it up because they wrote a shit storyline, because when someone actually gets it right, it goes over huge. Beyond booking (or at least why it is so hard to book), I think a lot of the issue stems from the way companies in recent times have to have a delicate balance of pushing the face but also not seeming like they’re “overpushing” the face, because then the audience has the non-kayfabe notion that this person is only champion because he’s the company’s “chosen one” and then there’s backlash because of that. It’s why the wildly popular faces tend to be the ones that the audience also thinks aren’t really company favorites, like Punk, Bryan, Kofimania, etc. Part of that comes down to being more flexible with plans. Too often they have their plans sketched out in advance and begrudge any deviation from that (biggest example would be Daniel Bryan culminating at Wrestlemania).
Really though, there are some tropes that are easy. Don't have a compelling story lined up for the face? Make them a fighting champion. Personally, I hate non-title matches. I figure if you beat the champ on any night, you should win the title (unless say, you beat a singles champ in a tag match). When we look back at some of the best reigns, they were fighting champ reigns. Look at John Cena's U.S. title reign where he issued open challenges every week. Even though he won all those challenges, he elevated several people and actually made them look good in defeat. That reign is almost universally looked on positively. It wasn't complex, just a guy coming out each week saying, I got something to prove and I want to give someone a chance.
The biggest thing is faces aren't truly interchangeable. What works for one won't necessarily work for another so you can't just do a one-size-fits-all approach.
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Post by EoE: Workin On My Night Cheese on Apr 5, 2023 10:06:25 GMT -5
Those were my examples of faces done right that were accepted by the crowd! Kofi had Smackdown built around him pretty much that entire spring/summer. I thought it was a successful reign with a bad ending. Bryan they didn’t really get a chance to get beyond Kane and see what was next because he had to give up the title. Yeah but in both cases they're guys who the crowd loved, who got their big moment with a chase, and then there was a disappointing follow-up. They're victims of the "And then what?" where they won and there wasn't any story they found worth telling afterward. In my mind they stand as exactly the issues of bookers failing to know what to do after they go through with the big win. Fans loved them, fans coudl have been there every step fo the way for compelling stories, and we at least got to see Kofi's run live out in full, and it failed to really mean all that much. Both guys stand as amazing examples of how bookers f***ed it up when it was the easiest thing in the world. I think the idea is that you should probably be building up multiple people simultaneously. Not just the prospective next champion, but maybe his first two or three challengers. It requires a lot of discipline, especially since you have to mix up credible TV opponents so not to be too repetitive, while at the same time not undercutting any other storylines those opponents may be in themselves. Like how many times historically have midcard champions been hobbled because they were used as credible bodies for the world title mix? F***, people have left the territory over that. (The inability to do these kinds of simultaneous builds due to sheer lack of numbers is something that really hampers the women’s division, for what it’s worth) |
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Tom Turkey
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Post by Tom Turkey on Apr 5, 2023 10:08:57 GMT -5
The fun is seeing how the hero overcomes the struggles and win the day. Hogan would ultimately defeat those who hurt him. Austin would get his revenge on Vince more often than not, and usually in the most satisfying way imaginable. Cena… well, I don’t need to explain further about him. Austin would often get his revenge *on the same show*. If you watch a lot of those Raws, it’s very common for it to open with Vince getting something over on Austin, and Austin getting some measure of revenge or humiliation on Vince by the end of the show. Very rarely would Austin end the show in trouble. Somehow WWE knew then something they’ve forgotten: heels can always get their heat back. They can get theirs and things will be okay. And even if a show ended with Austin in a tough predicament (i.e. losing the Royal Rumble due to Vince and Rock shenanigans), there'd be something he'd do on the next show to get one back on them (in this case, going to Commissioner Shawn Michaels and exploiting Vince's own loophole against him to set up the cage match at the next PPV). It would never feel like the story jerking Austin around for the sake of heat. |
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thecrusherwi
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Post by thecrusherwi on Apr 5, 2023 10:49:23 GMT -5
Austin would often get his revenge *on the same show*. If you watch a lot of those Raws, it’s very common for it to open with Vince getting something over on Austin, and Austin getting some measure of revenge or humiliation on Vince by the end of the show. Very rarely would Austin end the show in trouble. Somehow WWE knew then something they’ve forgotten: heels can always get their heat back. They can get theirs and things will be okay. And even if a show ended with Austin in a tough predicament (i.e. losing the Royal Rumble due to Vince and Rock shenanigans), there'd be something he'd do on the next show to get one back on them (in this case, going to Commissioner Shawn Michaels and exploiting Vince's own loophole against him to set up the cage match at the next PPV). It would never feel like the story jerking Austin around for the sake of heat. That was one of the biggest appeals of Austin. He was portrayed as a badass who was also the most clever guy in the room. So if he had a setback, the appeal was see how he would respond. And even if he didn't have a plan, he'd come up with something. I love the night after he lost the WWF Title to Kane. He comes out and basically says we all know you cheated and I want my rematch you coward. And then he proceeds to insult and/or threaten everyone until they accept his rematch. Then he wins. It was a perfect way to add a little drama to Austin's life without derailing him or his eventual big money collision with the Undertaker. |
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asuka007
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Post by asuka007 on Apr 5, 2023 12:19:41 GMT -5
So many wrestling bookers treat the babyface winning as the end of the story. As opposed to the middle chapter, which it should be.
“Then what?” IDK how about you PUT SOME THOUGHT into what comes after beforehand.
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