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Post by An Dog On An Skateboard on Apr 13, 2023 7:12:27 GMT -5
I'm not a regular watcher so I might be wrong about this, but the way I view it is that for a long time people said that the IC title had lost value and that the company didn't care about it anymore, so by giving a hot prospect a long and dominant run it's sort of made it matter again, there's a deegree of anticipation around IC title matches because of who might end that long run, and it's 300 days rather than 900 like Reigns' Universal title run, so there's still that sense of possibility.
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salz4life
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Post by salz4life on Apr 13, 2023 8:34:22 GMT -5
I'd love to see Sheamus beat him in a hard hitting match and Gunther gives him a handshake at the end of the match. Respect shown between the two... not necessarily a face turn, but respect.
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msc
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Post by msc on Apr 13, 2023 9:04:51 GMT -5
Everyone who has taken on Gunther for the belt has looked better in doing so. Even though he's beaten nearly all of them clean. He gives every opponent moments where the crowd think they're going to win. It's putting over a maligned but liked title.
There's lots of intangibles too but the reign has done a lot of the basics very well.
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Post by Friday Night SmackOwn on Apr 13, 2023 9:48:46 GMT -5
I'd love to see Sheamus beat him in a hard hitting match and Gunther gives him a handshake at the end of the match. Respect shown between the two... not necessarily a face turn, but respect. And it’d fit so well with Gunther’s “the mat is sacred” thing.
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Post by mistery on Apr 13, 2023 9:54:59 GMT -5
Yeah the big differences between Gunther's reign and Bianca's runs are:
- Gunther makes everyone he works with look good even when they lose.
- Bianca makes everyone she works with look like shit, and not in a good way. She no sells them as threats in the buildup, and then dominates like 95% of the match.
- Gunther has an intimidating presence, and toadies who can eat beatdowns for him.
- Bianca has had the same presentation for 2+ years now, and you can probably count on two hands how many times she has been laid out over the past few years, and probably even less when you count how many matches she has been pinned in.
Gunther has a much deeper division to draw upon as well, where with Bianca she's beaten damn near everyone on the main roster outside of Ronda, Charlotte, and Raquel.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2023 10:03:08 GMT -5
Does Gunther cheat to win?
No.
Get back to me when he does.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2023 10:13:26 GMT -5
Does Gunther cheat to win? No. Get back to me when he does.
In fairness, I'm 100% for heels cheating to win. That's been a wrestling booking staple going back decades, and it's what made Ric Flair arguably the GOAT, his personal shittiness aside.
The problem is in presentation. In Roman's case, he's presented as like this badass conquering monster, you know.. "God Mode" this, "Tribal Chief" that, but he can't get the job done without his family. If it were JUST Roman saying that, then I'd buy it as heel delusion, but the announcers buy into it, too, and it's just mixed signal bullshit booking. Is Roman a badass monster heel or a chickenshit coward? Because it's illogical for him to be both, and being fed that for 3 years while he obliterates the upper part of the roster is what makes his booking absolutely misery.
Gunther is just a big, mean monster who caves your chest in.
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Post by Friday Night SmackOwn on Apr 13, 2023 10:37:31 GMT -5
Does Gunther cheat to win? No. Get back to me when he does. In fairness, I'm 100% for heels cheating to win. That's been a wrestling booking staple going back decades, and it's what made Ric Flair arguably the GOAT, his personal shittiness aside.
The problem is in presentation. In Roman's case, he's presented as like this badass conquering monster, you know.. "God Mode" this, "Tribal Chief" that, but he can't get the job done without his family. If it were JUST Roman saying that, then I'd buy it as heel delusion, but the announcers buy into it, too, and it's just mixed signal bullshit booking. Is Roman a badass monster heel or a chickenshit coward? Because it's illogical for him to be both, and being fed that for 3 years while he obliterates the upper part of the roster is what makes his booking absolutely misery.
Gunther is just a big, mean monster who caves your chest in.
The heat for Gunther comes in that he is a monster who is dominant and not afraid to boast about it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2023 10:48:51 GMT -5
Why Gunthers reign works so well and isn't exhausting after 300 days now is because everyone he wrestles comes out better , everyone feels like they have a chance to beat him some more than others of course.
I reference this because I believe it his reign is very similar in fashion to IYO's NXT title reign where she just went in there did her thing and everyone she faced was better for it because again unless it was someone like Aaliyah who is a single step above useless she always had great highly competitive matches with them and there has not been a better womens title reign across any brand since for that reason.
When you have a talent that is the preverbial tide lifting all boats it just feels like everything runs smoother which is what Gunther is , a talent does not feel less from losing to him instead it was it just was not their night.
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Post by Some Baritone guy IS REDEEMED! on Apr 13, 2023 10:52:00 GMT -5
WHen he wins like a coward like Roman does for 3 years, so far he hasn't But Bianca doesn't win like a coward. Or do the "rules" apply differently to faces? To me misery booking is less about the alignment of the character and more about the way those who feud with them look in the end. For instance Bianca has, since last Wrestlemania won pretty much every feud, match, confrontation and promo convincingly. If anybody ever got one over on her it was immediately followed by her convincingly beating them repeatedly until there is absolutely no way to take them seriously and robbing them of all momentum. Take Bayley for instance. People were happy to have her back and she got a six woman tag team win at Clash at the Castle. And then she ended up losing title matches at back to back pay per views, pretty much every match they had on RAW and then they lose Wargames. This effectively ruined any chance of Bayley ever looking like a star again. Compare WALTER who has had banger after banger after banger, with nobody who wrestled him ever coming out looking worse for it. It revitalized Sheamus' career, and re-established the Intercontinental title's prestige. It's a big difference.
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asuka007
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Post by asuka007 on Apr 13, 2023 10:54:02 GMT -5
For me it comes down to:
1. His matches are always great and are different enough to not get stale.
2. It still feels like he has plenty of challengers left. That’s the big issue with Roman and Bianca by contrast.
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fw91
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Post by fw91 on Apr 13, 2023 11:51:42 GMT -5
Good insight here guys, appreciate it.
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Post by 06vwgti on Apr 13, 2023 12:03:15 GMT -5
But Bianca doesn't win like a coward. Or do the "rules" apply differently to faces? To me misery booking is less about the alignment of the character and more about the way those who feud with them look in the end. For instance Bianca has, since last Wrestlemania won pretty much every feud, match, confrontation and promo convincingly. If anybody ever got one over on her it was immediately followed by her convincingly beating them repeatedly until there is absolutely no way to take them seriously and robbing them of all momentum. Take Bayley for instance. People were happy to have her back and she got a six woman tag team win at Clash at the Castle. And then she ended up losing title matches at back to back pay per views, pretty much every match they had on RAW and then they lose Wargames. This effectively ruined any chance of Bayley ever looking like a star again. Compare WALTER who has had banger after banger after banger, with nobody who wrestled him ever coming out looking worse for it. It revitalized Sheamus' career, and re-established the Intercontinental title's prestige. It's a big difference. The matches with doudrop, before she came back as piper niven come to mind. I could have sworn she had a few matches with Bianca with the same result
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Apr 13, 2023 12:15:20 GMT -5
At least dude has minions who can take losses for him every once in awhile, that in its own right helps a lot. That said I can't see any reason unless it's to drop the belt to Sheamus at Money in the Bank for him to have retained at Mania. He's over, he's positioned as a major threat, he didn't need to take the pin, he's beaten everyone there really is of interest for him to beat at the moment, it feels like he just retained because everything must be a record. I feel like if Sheamus had beat Drew, or vice versa, it'd have been big for either guy, sure, but also would have been deflating. I think Gunther's got a big future, but a former world champion beating him isn't going to wreck his credibility. So yeah, I do hope Sheamus wins it at MITB.
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Post by Zombie Mod on Apr 13, 2023 12:33:17 GMT -5
Gunther hasn't been over-exposed yet, he's not been the focus of raw, smackdown and ppv's for his entire reign. Roman's been put on the poochie level of "if he's not on screen he must be mentioned repeatedly" presentation which is where a good chunk of the resentment of Roman being champ. throw in the trope of ref bump leading to screwy wins for Roman being the blueprint for a lot of his reign, people got sick of the formula quickly.
once Gunther gets to that level he'll be complained about as much as Roman is.
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Apr 13, 2023 12:46:44 GMT -5
the fact that in his matches, the opponent comes out looking good even in defeat and that Gunther's wins are just relatively clean without extra bullshit seems to help his case. Roman's title reign would be a great deal more tolerable if it was booked even half as good as Gunther's IC title reign instead of being "Jinder Mahal's, only longer"
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Post by Fake Jesus on Apr 13, 2023 12:49:54 GMT -5
It's a strange question. The answer is "when it makes people miserable".
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Post by theironyuppie on Apr 13, 2023 12:51:52 GMT -5
Yeah the big differences between Gunther's reign and Bianca's runs are: - Gunther makes everyone he works with look good even when they lose. - Bianca makes everyone she works with look like shit, and not in a good way. She no sells them as threats in the buildup, and then dominates like 95% of the match. - Gunther has an intimidating presence, and toadies who can eat beatdowns for him. - Bianca has had the same presentation for 2+ years now, and you can probably count on two hands how many times she has been laid out over the past few years, and probably even less when you count how many matches she has been pinned in. Gunther has a much deeper division to draw upon as well, where with Bianca she's beaten damn near everyone on the main roster outside of Ronda, Charlotte, and Raquel.
Bianca's already beaten Charlotte twice by DQ. Not the same as a pin, but both times she was clearly presented as about to win, and the second time she laid out Charlotte after the match for good measure.
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asuka007
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Post by asuka007 on Apr 13, 2023 12:59:00 GMT -5
Bianca doesn’t really sell her opponents as threats. And the few times she does lose/get beat down she doesn’t sell it either. I remember a time when she, Asuka, and Alexa got beat down to end Raw. And not only did she come out doing her same entrance the next week regardless. But as they were showing a replay of that beating, you see her smiling, and laughing, and joking around with the other two in the ring.
When it feels like nothing ever gets to her or bothers her, it makes things boring and her opponents look lesser.
Also most of Bianca’s matches are like 90+% just booked as athletic showcases for her. It’s all about showing how cool she is, which also doesn’t help her opponents.
Gunther has mastered the balance of selling really well for his opponents while still coming across as a dominant monster at the same time.
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DichEvans
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Post by DichEvans on Apr 13, 2023 13:07:28 GMT -5
the fact that in his matches, the opponent comes out looking good even in defeat and that Gunther's wins are just relatively clean without extra bullshit seems to help his case. His matches often being the best of the night really helps him
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