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Post by theironyuppie on Aug 7, 2023 21:15:56 GMT -5
Honestly, I think she's been exposed as having had that "chosen one" armour, which now feels like a millstone around her and the company's neck. It was inevitable that she would embrace her father's legacy - all you need to do is look at her to know she's Ric's daughter. However, women's wrestling being what it's been on and off over the last 20 years, there's a bit of a Shakespeare's Sister (the Virginia Woolf passage, not the early 90s music duo) to her body of work - similar to Natalya, she's been limited somewhat by being among the best in a very mixed bag of competitors and hamstrung by having to work down to the level of lesser talents. And in both cases, they are saddled with legacies they may not have worked fully within. Yes, Nattie may have been stretched somewhat by her grandfather, but she was a daughter of a daughter in a clan from which she ended up being the only woman wrestler. At the same time, people are probably going to be kinder on Charlotte's legacy when they're not freaking about her being within breathing distance of a title. She's been involved in so many major and transformative matches in the division, going all the way back to her/Natalya's breakthrough Takeover match in 2014, to the NXT San Jose match with Sasha that convinced Vince to put more emphasis on women's wrestling, to the WM 32 triple-threat with Sasha/Becky and beyond, all the way to her classic at Mania this year. Of course she's had duds, but her catalogue of excellent matches runs deep.
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Post by Lizuka #BLM on Aug 7, 2023 21:16:09 GMT -5
14 main roster reigns in 8 years. That's asinine I don't like to throw around like pure, unleaded nepotism accusations. Charlotte's very talented, she definitely worked hard for what she can do and for the place she got, she was definitely a project from day one but there's no denying the effort she put in to live up to that expectation. But nobody can provide one genuine reason beyond her last name why she should have that many title reigns or why she should have that push. It can't be a big moment if all you have going for it is "Oh right because her dad did the thing yeah okay". That's meaningless. That's padding at its most egregious. Her last name is the only hook there and if she was Charlotte Smith it wouldn't even be on anyone's radar. If she's not actually worth that record, then giving her that record is utterly undeserved. I think that's a good way to put it. Charlotte Smith might be women's champion four or five times over, but she wouldn't have had it like 20 times on top of ending Asuka's streak and winning the Rumble.
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Post by grungesmurf on Aug 7, 2023 21:20:40 GMT -5
Is there a petition I can sign? As soon as her music hits I’ve lost all interest in the match, segment, promo.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Aug 7, 2023 22:07:45 GMT -5
I don't like to throw around like pure, unleaded nepotism accusations. Charlotte's very talented, she definitely worked hard for what she can do and for the place she got, she was definitely a project from day one but there's no denying the effort she put in to live up to that expectation. But nobody can provide one genuine reason beyond her last name why she should have that many title reigns or why she should have that push. It can't be a big moment if all you have going for it is "Oh right because her dad did the thing yeah okay". That's meaningless. That's padding at its most egregious. Her last name is the only hook there and if she was Charlotte Smith it wouldn't even be on anyone's radar. If she's not actually worth that record, then giving her that record is utterly undeserved. I think that's a good way to put it. Charlotte Smith might be women's champion four or five times over, but she wouldn't have had it like 20 times on top of ending Asuka's streak and winning the Rumble. Charlotte Smith would have a great career and even be one of the Four Horsewomen still, absolutely standing out as a big part of the company's push to take women's wrestling more seriously. And she'd have a normal amount of title reigns and probably not be the perennial eternal main event fixture who literally doesn't have the capacity to have something going that isn't about a belt.
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Post by theironyuppie on Aug 8, 2023 0:23:27 GMT -5
I don't like to throw around like pure, unleaded nepotism accusations. Charlotte's very talented, she definitely worked hard for what she can do and for the place she got, she was definitely a project from day one but there's no denying the effort she put in to live up to that expectation. But nobody can provide one genuine reason beyond her last name why she should have that many title reigns or why she should have that push. It can't be a big moment if all you have going for it is "Oh right because her dad did the thing yeah okay". That's meaningless. That's padding at its most egregious. Her last name is the only hook there and if she was Charlotte Smith it wouldn't even be on anyone's radar. If she's not actually worth that record, then giving her that record is utterly undeserved. I think that's a good way to put it. Charlotte Smith might be women's champion four or five times over, but she wouldn't have had it like 20 times on top of ending Asuka's streak and winning the Rumble.
Asuka's streak was doomed anyway, because they wanted to do the Carmella cash-in two nights later, which happened to Charlotte instead. I still feel in those circumstances, having the streak end in a great Mania match was the way to go.
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Post by Big DSR Energy on Aug 8, 2023 1:02:31 GMT -5
I think that's a good way to put it. Charlotte Smith might be women's champion four or five times over, but she wouldn't have had it like 20 times on top of ending Asuka's streak and winning the Rumble. Charlotte Smith would have a great career and even be one of the Four Horsewomen still, absolutely standing out as a big part of the company's push to take women's wrestling more seriously. And she'd have a normal amount of title reigns and probably not be the perennial eternal main event fixture who literally doesn't have the capacity to have something going that isn't about a belt. I don't know, I think Charlotte Smith having the gimmick of "Ric Flair, but as a woman" wouldn't really fly without the familial connection. Perhaps even the Four Horsewomen name would be something completely different (since her father was a Horseman). Not trying to take away from Charlotte's ability, but the character is so very very much a legacy character that removing the Flair connection changes so much about the presentation of the hypothetical Charlotte Smith. *shrug*
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schma
El Dandy
Who are you to doubt me?
Posts: 7,547
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Post by schma on Aug 8, 2023 2:46:26 GMT -5
Charlotte Smith would have a great career and even be one of the Four Horsewomen still, absolutely standing out as a big part of the company's push to take women's wrestling more seriously. And she'd have a normal amount of title reigns and probably not be the perennial eternal main event fixture who literally doesn't have the capacity to have something going that isn't about a belt. I don't know, I think Charlotte Smith having the gimmick of "Ric Flair, but as a woman" wouldn't really fly without the familial connection. Perhaps even the Four Horsewomen name would be something completely different (since her father was a Horseman). Not trying to take away from Charlotte's ability, but the character is so very very much a legacy character that removing the Flair connection changes so much about the presentation of the hypothetical Charlotte Smith. *shrug* I honestly wondered why she didn't try to shed some of the Flair presentation once she established herself. In my mind she comes off as a Ric Flair cosplayer. The relation may be what got her to the table, but she showed that she has what it takes to stay at the table on her own merits and yet, she's still doing the Ric Flair cosplay to a large degree.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Aug 8, 2023 4:44:32 GMT -5
Charlotte Smith would have a great career and even be one of the Four Horsewomen still, absolutely standing out as a big part of the company's push to take women's wrestling more seriously. And she'd have a normal amount of title reigns and probably not be the perennial eternal main event fixture who literally doesn't have the capacity to have something going that isn't about a belt. I don't know, I think Charlotte Smith having the gimmick of "Ric Flair, but as a woman" wouldn't really fly without the familial connection. Perhaps even the Four Horsewomen name would be something completely different (since her father was a Horseman). Not trying to take away from Charlotte's ability, but the character is so very very much a legacy character that removing the Flair connection changes so much about the presentation of the hypothetical Charlotte Smith. *shrug* She wouldn't be who she is presented as now, for sure, I just think that without the last name she could still be successful to a normal amount while still having this outrageously padded resume because of her last name and this predestiny that she needs to match or beat her father's record.
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Post by polarbearpete on Aug 8, 2023 8:36:10 GMT -5
I don't know, I think Charlotte Smith having the gimmick of "Ric Flair, but as a woman" wouldn't really fly without the familial connection. Perhaps even the Four Horsewomen name would be something completely different (since her father was a Horseman). Not trying to take away from Charlotte's ability, but the character is so very very much a legacy character that removing the Flair connection changes so much about the presentation of the hypothetical Charlotte Smith. *shrug* She wouldn't be who she is presented as now, for sure, I just think that without the last name she could still be successful to a normal amount while still having this outrageously padded resume because of her last name and this predestiny that she needs to match or beat her father's record. Being a legacy character is a hook for the audience in and of itself (talking about the presentation and performance aspect, not the winning of x number of titles). So removing the gimmick from her would be an issue whether or not her name was changed.
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Post by Banjo Is Broken on Aug 9, 2023 2:09:31 GMT -5
Charlotte in AEW is putting an evil on me so strong I will need to call several exorcists to my house You might actually say something negative about AEW. Do we really want to go down that road?
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Aug 9, 2023 2:15:06 GMT -5
Charlotte in AEW is putting an evil on me so strong I will need to call several exorcists to my house You might actually say something negative about AEW. Do we really want to go down that road? I say plenty negative about AEW, can you not try and start an argument at 3 AM Banjo? This is why I tell you to go to bed
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Post by Banjo Is Broken on Aug 9, 2023 2:17:43 GMT -5
You might actually say something negative about AEW. Do we really want to go down that road? I say plenty negative about AEW, can you not try and start an argument at 3 AM Banjo? This is why I tell you to go to bed It would all be worth Charlotte going to AEW if it means a big feud with Marina Shafurry.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
FANatic
Writer, Lover of all things Wrestling. Analytical, Critical, Lovable (hopefully). Lets all have fun!
Posts: 245,103
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Aug 9, 2023 2:18:54 GMT -5
I say plenty negative about AEW, can you not try and start an argument at 3 AM Banjo? This is why I tell you to go to bed It would all be worth Charlotte going to AEW if it means a big feud with Marina Shafurry. Marina is the Fox who throws her Socks
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Post by HMARK Center on Aug 9, 2023 5:06:04 GMT -5
I wonder if it would’ve been better if they’d just committed to having her be their Okada in the women’s division: an “ace” who’s kind of above being a true face or heel during matches, and instead is seen as the last mountain you need to climb to get to the top. Wouldn’t have to be that character all the time (e.g. Okada was clearly the protagonist of his record breaking title reign, then we got balloon Kazu when he lost the belt and it hurt his confidence), but it’d be a defined character and position within the roster hierarchy.
Instead, by trading around the belt so often the whole “we want her to catch her dad” thing is too obvious, and quickly brings up the big problem: you can’t get to 14 reigns in just a few years without dropping the title at least 13 times in that same period. Hard to be a top ace if you’re losing title matches that often.
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Post by theironyuppie on Aug 9, 2023 8:04:33 GMT -5
I wonder if it would’ve been better if they’d just committed to having her be their Okada in the women’s division: an “ace” who’s kind of above being a true face or heel during matches, and instead is seen as the last mountain you need to climb to get to the top. Wouldn’t have to be that character all the time (e.g. Okada was clearly the protagonist of his record breaking title reign, then we got balloon Kazu when he lost the belt and it hurt his confidence), but it’d be a defined character and position within the roster hierarchy. Instead, by trading around the belt so often the whole “we want her to catch her dad” thing is too obvious, and quickly brings up the big problem: you can’t get to 14 reigns in just a few years without dropping the title at least 13 times in that same period. Hard to be a top ace if you’re losing title matches that often. The thing is that people thinking Charlotte's short reigns were only to try and equal her dad's let WWE use them as ways of solving problems. The Summerslam 2018-HIAC 2018 reign did a lot to set up Becky's run, making it bigger than if she'd just beaten Carmella at Summerslam in the first place. The 12 day reign before WM 35 let 'Becky 2 Belts' become a thing. The four-minute one at MITB 2019 let them solve the problem of getting the SD title from Becky to Bayley without Bayley having to beat the company's top face. Then the five-day reign from HIAC 2019 was used as a way of completing Bayley's heel turn, regaining the title when she cut her hair and attacked the inflatable waving arm-men during her entrance.
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Post by mistery on Aug 9, 2023 8:30:16 GMT -5
Honestly, I think she's been exposed as having had that "chosen one" armour, which now feels like a millstone around her and the company's neck. It was inevitable that she would embrace her father's legacy - all you need to do is look at her to know she's Ric's daughter. However, women's wrestling being what it's been on and off over the last 20 years, there's a bit of a Shakespeare's Sister (the Virginia Woolf passage, not the early 90s music duo) to her body of work - similar to Natalya, she's been limited somewhat by being among the best in a very mixed bag of competitors and hamstrung by having to work down to the level of lesser talents. And in both cases, they are saddled with legacies they may not have worked fully within. Yes, Nattie may have been stretched somewhat by her grandfather, but she was a daughter of a daughter in a clan from which she ended up being the only woman wrestler. Honestly at this point, saying that she has to work down to match others is a bit misleading as Charlotte herself has shown she clearly does not give a damn 99% of the time. I knew the triple threat match at Summerslam was going to be a mess the moment she walked out and had the infamous "I'm losing" face. With only one real notable exception over the past couple of years (at Wrestlemania this year against Rhea), Charlotte has a habit of phoning it in or sandbagging whoever she's facing if she's not winning or standing tall at the end. At this point it feels more like the women in WWE will have to learn to work down to her level, as she clearly does not care about being there anymore unless it involves winning the title. I also feel like she has a lot of baggage around her in general, lest we forget the infamous Becky/Charlotte belt swap segment. Which while the segment was stupid, showed how unprofessional she actually was by going off script. There's also the fact that she comes across as unprofessional in even non-kayfabe interviews from time to time. Let's not forget her interview on After The Bell where Graves had asked if she could ever do non-title feuds, and she mentioned she HATES non-title feuds as she feels like she NEEDS to be in the title scene at all times as her ego demands it. Or the infamous TLC 2019 incident where she decided to shoot on KAIRI (despite KAIRI being concussed). If it were any other company, she would have been severely punished for that, but instead WWE gave her a Rumble win the following year and let her beat Rhea for the NXT Women's Title. It just adds to the pile of evidence that she is the company's chosen one despite there being women just as over, and far less obnoxious (personality wise) than her.
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Nosnorb
El Dandy
Nachos and Fraggle Rock are TIMELESS.
Posts: 8,375
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Post by Nosnorb on Aug 9, 2023 9:00:45 GMT -5
I wonder if it would’ve been better if they’d just committed to having her be their Okada in the women’s division: an “ace” who’s kind of above being a true face or heel during matches, and instead is seen as the last mountain you need to climb to get to the top. Wouldn’t have to be that character all the time (e.g. Okada was clearly the protagonist of his record breaking title reign, then we got balloon Kazu when he lost the belt and it hurt his confidence), but it’d be a defined character and position within the roster hierarchy. Instead, by trading around the belt so often the whole “we want her to catch her dad” thing is too obvious, and quickly brings up the big problem: you can’t get to 14 reigns in just a few years without dropping the title at least 13 times in that same period. Hard to be a top ace if you’re losing title matches that often. The thing is that people thinking Charlotte's short reigns were only to try and equal her dad's let WWE use them as ways of solving problems. The Summerslam 2018-HIAC 2018 reign did a lot to set up Becky's run, making it bigger than if she'd just beaten Carmella at Summerslam in the first place. The 12 day reign before WM 35 let 'Becky 2 Belts' become a thing. The four-minute one at MITB 2019 let them solve the problem of getting the SD title from Becky to Bayley without Bayley having to beat the company's top face. Then the five-day reign from HIAC 2019 was used as a way of completing Bayley's heel turn, regaining the title when she cut her hair and attacked the inflatable waving arm-men during her entrance. The 12 day reign before WM35 was pure padding and a way to get her into a match that everyone was perfectly fine with just being Becky taking on Ronda, one that people had been looking forward to for months. In a lot of those cases, there was no problem to solve. Then there was the period when Charlotte and Sasha banks played hot potato with the belt in the fall of 2016, and the literal title swap in 2021 14 title reigns in such a short time is still absolutely nuts.
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Post by clc on Aug 9, 2023 9:47:33 GMT -5
People make the comparison between Ric and Charlotte. The presentation is superficial. She's no Ric Flair. I WISH she would have stolen a very important aspect of her father's gimmick, "the dirtiest player in the game". You see, Ric Flair had the ability to make everyone he worked with look great. Win or lose, you come out of a match with Ric Flair looking like a hero. Nearly no one comes out of working with Charlotte looking better. (If it wasn't for the one recent match with Ripley, I wouldn't even need to qualify that with "Nearly")
Charlotte never loses clean. Charlotte always wins clean. Ric Flair would flop around the ring making his opponent look like a superhero. Charlotte takes 90% of the offense in her matches, and barely sells. Ric Flair was a promo genius. Charlotte's promos are like a text to voice app.
Her comparison to Ric ends at a name, a robe, blonde hair, and saying Woo. She's missing all of Ric's qualities where it matters. I give her credit for being athletic. She is very athletic and that physicality is what makes her matches good.
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Sephiroth
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Post by Sephiroth on Aug 11, 2023 13:37:18 GMT -5
It honestly feels like we're reaching that point with the four horsewomen in general. Becky's off mostly feuding with legends these days, Bayley's doing her best to get Iyo and Dakota over and Charlotte just seems like she's run out of juice. I suspect 2024-2025 WWE women's wrestling is going to be way different in terms of lead characters. If Tessa Blanchard were not such a trash human being, I could totally have envisioned The Four Horsewomen; Charlotte as the boss, Natalya as the veteran, Rhea as the muscle, and Tessa as the rookie
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Nosnorb
El Dandy
Nachos and Fraggle Rock are TIMELESS.
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Post by Nosnorb on Aug 17, 2023 21:01:52 GMT -5
I've never been a huge Charlotte fan, but I always understood her value. However, I think she's hit a point now where she's got nothing to really offer anymore. There's nothing compelling about her from a character standpoint. She's accomplished everything there is kayfabe-wise (except winning MITB). Some bad news, looks like she is going nowhere else, and she's going to spend the rest of her WWE career either holding a World Title or the Number One contender to one.
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