The WRESTLEMANIA 3 Attendance Debate

[ThatDudeThatExsists]

Aug 9, 2023 10:39:13 GMT -5 Sicho100 said:

Aug 9, 2023 9:53:01 GMT -5 firsttimelongtime said:

What motivation would Zane Bresloff have to lie about the number? He was the promoter. If anything, wouldn’t he want to boast a bigger number?

WWE also ended up giving Meltzer access to their internal books for a story he did. The books confirmed the 78,000 number. The arena even had to gimmick a number for the literal Pope, because the Pope outdrew WM 3, but still didn’t reach 93,000.

And, guys, let’s stop with the “This picture must be more than 78,000” argument. You can’t tell the difference between 78,000 or 93,000 in a picture. None of us can. If WWE had announced the attendance as 65,000, that’s how many people you would think were in that picture, because all you’re really saying is, “There are a lot of people in this picture.”

But can we actually take Meltzer at his word? He has a clear anti WWE bias.

Until someone in WWE comes out and says,"Yes. It was only 78,000. I won't believe it.

And by looking at the picture, you can clearly see the 80,000 regular seats are filled filled. Like... No you can't tell if it's 93,00, BUT, you can tell it's more than 78,000.

[Jindrak Mark]

The guy is kinda annoying but David Bixenspan a few years ago I remember doing probably the most comprehensive investigation into it. His conclusion was that the real number was higher than 78,000 but likely lower than 93,000. I'm pretty sure his estimate was around 87-88,000 in the building.

If Meltzer said that 78,000 tickets were sold and the rest were comps I'd buy that but he's always maintained that 78,000 is the total number of people in the building which just doesn't add up. There's probably 78,000 in the stands alone before you add all the floor seats (it held around 80,000 for football games). If you say there's nowhere close to 78,000 in the stands (which has to be the case if there's that amount in the building period including thousands of the floor sears) then there should be quite a lot of empty seats in those stands and there are photos from all angles of the stadium that night and no one has ever spotted them much less thousands of them.

[ThatDudeThatExsists]

Aug 9, 2023 11:11:46 GMT -5 Jindrak Mark said:

The guy is kinda annoying but David Bixenspan a few years ago I remember doing probably the most comprehensive investigation into it. His conclusion was that the real number was higher than 78,000 but likely lower than 93,000. I'm pretty sure his estimate was around 87-88,000 in the building.

If Meltzer said that 78,000 tickets were sold and the rest were comps I'd buy that but he's always maintained that 78,000 is the total number of people in the building which just doesn't add up. There's probably 78,000 in the stands alone before you add all the floor seats (it held around 80,000 for football games). If you say there's nowhere close to 78,000 in the stands (which has to be the case if there's that amount in the building period including thousands of the floor sears) then there should be quite a lot of empty seats in those stands and there are photos from all angles of the stadium that night and no one has ever spotted them much less thousands of them.

Exactly. If there's just 78,000 people then there'd be noticable empty seats. But... There's not.

[YAKMAN is ICHIBAN]

Aug 9, 2023 11:11:46 GMT -5 Jindrak Mark said:

The guy is kinda annoying but David Bixenspan a few years ago I remember doing probably the most comprehensive investigation into it. His conclusion was that the real number was higher than 78,000 but likely lower than 93,000. I'm pretty sure his estimate was around 87-88,000 in the building.

If Meltzer said that 78,000 tickets were sold and the rest were comps I'd buy that but he's always maintained that 78,000 is the total number of people in the building which just doesn't add up. There's probably 78,000 in the stands alone before you add all the floor seats (it held around 80,000 for football games). If you say there's nowhere close to 78,000 in the stands (which has to be the case if there's that amount in the building period including thousands of the floor sears) then there should be quite a lot of empty seats in those stands and there are photos from all angles of the stadium that night and no one has ever spotted them much less thousands of them.

Here is the Bixenspan article.

Unfortunately, it doesn’t look like anyone will ever get down to the real number. It seems clear that WWE exaggerated by at least 5,000 people, but the idea that there was a significant gulf between the crowds at WrestleMania III and the papal mass seems unlikely based on newspaper reports and photos of both events. Meltzer has noted in the past that he believes that fixed seat capacities for many stadiums and arenas are already exaggerated based on accounting paperwork he got for wrestling sellouts in the era before staging blocked off much of the fixed seating. That is the only thing that could put the WrestleMania III crowd under 80,000 since the building was clearly full with minimal fixed seats blocked off, if any. But if that isn’t the case, then short of an eventual Secret Service FOIA response that includes capacity and/or attendance figures, there aren’t any clear options left beyond trying to count floor seats. The Detroit News’s website has the highest resolution version if you really want to try.

deadspin.com/how-many-people-were-actually-at-wrestlemania-iii-a-de-1824178481

Short of seeing the actual documents, I think that 78,000 figure has to be some sort of game of telephone gone wrong. But the carnies are of course going to inflate the attendance as they have done on numerous occasions. Vince has admitted in the past that the announced figures are for entertainment purposes only, or include staff like ushers, ticket takers, etc.

[YAKMAN is ICHIBAN]

Actually, I just found that Bixenspan did a follow up article here

babyfacevheel.substack.com/p/wrestlemania-iii-attendance-redux


He concludes that the documents Meltzer was given omitted suite and club level ticket holders.

Meanwhile, fan/historian Max Tamalie tried to count the floor seats using the high resolution photo of the crowd on the Detroit News website (mirror here) and came up with a tally of about 6,300; he came up with 6,568 for the mass more recently. He’s also repeatedly pointed out that according to the level by level breakdowns of Silverdome seating, there were 1,246 seats on the suite level and 7,342 club seats. If you subtract those 8,588 seats from the official fixed seat total—which has varied slightly with renovations but always sat at 80,000 and change (the final capacity was 80,311)—you get a figure in the 72,000 range. (71,723 for the final capacity and 72,050 for the circa WM3 capacity.) If you subtract the approximately 6,300 floor seats from the approximate internal WM3 attendance figure of 78,500, you get 72,200, a number in the same range as the stadium minus club and suite levels figures.

In other words? For some reason, it looks like the building settlement that Bresloff sent Meltzer (which Meltzer further verified in 2001 when WWE gave him access to internal records, although he’s never given an exact number) was missing the suite and club level ticket holders. It can’t be a coincidence that the math keeps taking us to the same place, with about 88,000 people there for both WM3 and the Papal mass. With Meltzer’s past claim that the mass somehow drew about 10,000 more people than WM3 (“They were more jammed in,” he said in 2005) clearly being inaccurate based on photos and video of both events, and I’m pretty confident that we more or less know what happened now:

WrestleMania III drew about 88,000 fans (about 85,000 paid), the number was worked up to 93,173, internal paperwork somehow omitted the club and suite levels (separate sales channels? separate entrances without turnstiles?), and the discrepancy fueled decades of arguments.

[Milkman Norm]

The only thing I have to add is that it seems that out of respect for his memory and for what he meant to his father's promotion Vince is very protective of the numbers associated with Andre, worked or not.

[ThatDudeThatExsists]

Aug 9, 2023 11:42:22 GMT -5 YAKMAN is ICHIBAN said:

Actually, I just found that Bixenspan did a follow up article here

babyfacevheel.substack.com/p/wrestlemania-iii-attendance-redux


He concludes that the documents Meltzer was given omitted suite and club level ticket holders.

Meanwhile, fan/historian Max Tamalie tried to count the floor seats using the high resolution photo of the crowd on the Detroit News website (mirror here) and came up with a tally of about 6,300; he came up with 6,568 for the mass more recently. He’s also repeatedly pointed out that according to the level by level breakdowns of Silverdome seating, there were 1,246 seats on the suite level and 7,342 club seats. If you subtract those 8,588 seats from the official fixed seat total—which has varied slightly with renovations but always sat at 80,000 and change (the final capacity was 80,311)—you get a figure in the 72,000 range. (71,723 for the final capacity and 72,050 for the circa WM3 capacity.) If you subtract the approximately 6,300 floor seats from the approximate internal WM3 attendance figure of 78,500, you get 72,200, a number in the same range as the stadium minus club and suite levels figures.

In other words? For some reason, it looks like the building settlement that Bresloff sent Meltzer (which Meltzer further verified in 2001 when WWE gave him access to internal records, although he’s never given an exact number) was missing the suite and club level ticket holders. It can’t be a coincidence that the math keeps taking us to the same place, with about 88,000 people there for both WM3 and the Papal mass. With Meltzer’s past claim that the mass somehow drew about 10,000 more people than WM3 (“They were more jammed in,” he said in 2005) clearly being inaccurate based on photos and video of both events, and I’m pretty confident that we more or less know what happened now:

WrestleMania III drew about 88,000 fans (about 85,000 paid), the number was worked up to 93,173, internal paperwork somehow omitted the club and suite levels (separate sales channels? separate entrances without turnstiles?), and the discrepancy fueled decades of arguments.

That makes so much sense.

[jason1980s]

If III's numbered were faked, then how many fans at the Big Event or Wrestlemania VI?
Those were large stadium shows that were packed. If III had 78,000 than what were those two-as they cited over 60,000 each.

[ThatDudeThatExsists]

Aug 9, 2023 11:54:10 GMT -5 jason1980s said:

If III's numbered were faked, then how many fans at the Big Event or Wrestlemania VI?
Those were large stadium shows that were packed. If III had 78,000 than what were those two-as they cited over 60,000 each.

According to official Canadian press, The Big Event drew legit 65,000.

[ThatDudeThatExsists]

Aug 9, 2023 11:58:54 GMT -5 booty2shoes said:

This has me Googling assorted articles about events at the Silverdome. Interesting that the Detroit Free Press lists the Pope's appearance (which outdrew Mania) as "90,000."

www.freep.com/story/sports/nfl/lions/2015/10/29/pontiac-silverdome-memories/74835284/

It also has photos from The Who drawing 76,000 (with way more people on the field than a wrestling setup has).

Aren't they're TONS of empty seats in the Who photo?

[Jindrak Mark]

Aug 9, 2023 11:46:41 GMT -5 booty2shoes said:

If someone told me there are 70,000 people in the permanent seats and about 8,000 chairs on the floor in that picture, I'd believe you.

[/div]

If someone told me there's 93,000 people in the picture, I'd also believe you.

[/quote]

If there were only 70,000 in the permanent seats then that would have to mean there's 8-12,000 empty seats. Where are they? It just doesn't add up. I can understand in a mass gathering like that how there could be random empty seats scattered throughout that are barely visible in photos but there's very clearly not thousands upon thousands empty which would have to be the case for the 78,000 total number to be accurate.

I agree that without context random photos can be hard to tell the difference. Depending on the angle you shot the photos you could show me pictures of a 60,000 seat stadium and a 100,000 seat stadium and I might not notice much difference at first. We do have context here though.

We know that the regular seats held around 80,000. We don't know the exact amount but I think most people would place the amount on the floor there as in the range of 5-10,000. So even if you take the low end estimate and say there were only 5,000 floor seats that would mean there's 73,000 in the stands if the 78k is accurate. Where are those 7,000 empty seats? Based on what we know it's just not humanly possible that there was 78,000 people. I don't know the real number but it's clearly more than 78,000. The Bixenspan research seems the most realistic to me and he ends up at around 88,000.

[ThatDudeThatExsists]

Aug 9, 2023 12:11:55 GMT -5 Jindrak Mark said:

Aug 9, 2023 11:46:41 GMT -5 booty2shoes said:

If someone told me there are 70,000 people in the permanent seats and about 8,000 chairs on the floor in that picture, I'd believe you.

[/div]

If someone told me there's 93,000 people in the picture, I'd also believe you.

[/quote]

If there were only 70,000 in the permanent seats then that would have to mean there's 8-12,000 empty seats. Where are they? It just doesn't add up. I can understand in a mass gathering like that how there could be random empty seats scattered throughout that are barely visible in photos but there's very clearly not thousands upon thousands empty which would have to be the case for the 78,000 total number to be accurate.

I agree that without context random photos can be hard to tell the difference. Depending on the angle you shot the photos you could show me pictures of a 60,000 seat stadium and a 100,000 seat stadium and I might not notice much difference at first. We do have context here though.

We know that the regular seats held around 80,000. We don't know the exact amount but I think most people would place the amount on the floor there as in the range of 5-10,000. So even if you take the low end estimate and say there were only 5,000 floor seats that would mean there's 73,000 in the stands if the 78k is accurate. Where are those 7,000 empty seats? Based on what we know it's just not humanly possible that there was 78,000 people. I don't know the real number but it's clearly more than 78,000. The Bixenspan research seems the most realistic to me and he ends up at around 88,000.[/quote]


Most of press before the event were reporting 88,000 to 90,000.

There's even a few that reported MORE then 93,000.

[cornettesracket]

Aug 9, 2023 11:42:22 GMT -5 YAKMAN is ICHIBAN said:

Actually, I just found that Bixenspan did a follow up article here

babyfacevheel.substack.com/p/wrestlemania-iii-attendance-redux


He concludes that the documents Meltzer was given omitted suite and club level ticket holders.

Meanwhile, fan/historian Max Tamalie tried to count the floor seats using the high resolution photo of the crowd on the Detroit News website (mirror here) and came up with a tally of about 6,300; he came up with 6,568 for the mass more recently. He’s also repeatedly pointed out that according to the level by level breakdowns of Silverdome seating, there were 1,246 seats on the suite level and 7,342 club seats. If you subtract those 8,588 seats from the official fixed seat total—which has varied slightly with renovations but always sat at 80,000 and change (the final capacity was 80,311)—you get a figure in the 72,000 range. (71,723 for the final capacity and 72,050 for the circa WM3 capacity.) If you subtract the approximately 6,300 floor seats from the approximate internal WM3 attendance figure of 78,500, you get 72,200, a number in the same range as the stadium minus club and suite levels figures.

In other words? For some reason, it looks like the building settlement that Bresloff sent Meltzer (which Meltzer further verified in 2001 when WWE gave him access to internal records, although he’s never given an exact number) was missing the suite and club level ticket holders. It can’t be a coincidence that the math keeps taking us to the same place, with about 88,000 people there for both WM3 and the Papal mass. With Meltzer’s past claim that the mass somehow drew about 10,000 more people than WM3 (“They were more jammed in,” he said in 2005) clearly being inaccurate based on photos and video of both events, and I’m pretty confident that we more or less know what happened now:

WrestleMania III drew about 88,000 fans (about 85,000 paid), the number was worked up to 93,173, internal paperwork somehow omitted the club and suite levels (separate sales channels? separate entrances without turnstiles?), and the discrepancy fueled decades of arguments.

I didn’t know he did a follow up article. And I know the papal mass took place there but I’ve never seen pictures of it. I might see if I can look at them because those would be very interesting.

[YAKMAN is ICHIBAN]

Aug 9, 2023 13:06:30 GMT -5 cornettesracket said:

Aug 9, 2023 11:42:22 GMT -5 YAKMAN is ICHIBAN said:

Actually, I just found that Bixenspan did a follow up article here

babyfacevheel.substack.com/p/wrestlemania-iii-attendance-redux


He concludes that the documents Meltzer was given omitted suite and club level ticket holders.

I didn’t know he did a follow up article. And I know the papal mass took place there but I’ve never seen pictures of it. I might see if I can look at them because those would be very interesting.

Not yet full in this one obviously but you can see the set-up well here, and why it would be roughly analogous to WM3

[cornettesracket]

Aug 9, 2023 12:11:55 GMT -5 Jindrak Mark said:

Aug 9, 2023 11:46:41 GMT -5 booty2shoes said:

If someone told me there are 70,000 people in the permanent seats and about 8,000 chairs on the floor in that picture, I'd believe you.

[/div]

If someone told me there's 93,000 people in the picture, I'd also believe you.

[/quote]

If there were only 70,000 in the permanent seats then that would have to mean there's 8-12,000 empty seats. Where are they? It just doesn't add up. I can understand in a mass gathering like that how there could be random empty seats scattered throughout that are barely visible in photos but there's very clearly not thousands upon thousands empty which would have to be the case for the 78,000 total number to be accurate.

I agree that without context random photos can be hard to tell the difference. Depending on the angle you shot the photos you could show me pictures of a 60,000 seat stadium and a 100,000 seat stadium and I might not notice much difference at first. We do have context here though.

We know that the regular seats held around 80,000. We don't know the exact amount but I think most people would place the amount on the floor there as in the range of 5-10,000. So even if you take the low end estimate and say there were only 5,000 floor seats that would mean there's 73,000 in the stands if the 78k is accurate. Where are those 7,000 empty seats? Based on what we know it's just not humanly possible that there was 78,000 people. I don't know the real number but it's clearly more than 78,000. The Bixenspan research seems the most realistic to me and he ends up at around 88,000.[/quote]

that’s my view of it also. I don’t think the 93,000 number is correct or even above 90,000, but yeah when we know that the fixed seating was 80,000 because remember the NFL had very strict local blackout rules and so you’d assume the teams and league would know the correct capacity of the stadium. 

[Feargus McReddit]

Aug 9, 2023 11:11:12 GMT -5 ThatDudeThatExsists said:

But can we actually take Meltzer at his word? He has a clear anti WWE bias.

He absolutely does not.

Hell, he's probably more likely the guy to say "Well, that's just how they work" to most of the booking decisions now.

[cornettesracket]

Aug 9, 2023 13:19:03 GMT -5 Feargus McReddit said:

Aug 9, 2023 11:11:12 GMT -5 ThatDudeThatExsists said:

But can we actually take Meltzer at his word? He has a clear anti WWE bias.

He absolutely does not.

Hell, he's probably more likely the guy to say "Well, that's just how they work" to most of the booking decisions now.

Yes he does certainly in terms of his star ratings.

[Feargus McReddit]

Aug 9, 2023 13:20:52 GMT -5 cornettesracket said:

Aug 9, 2023 13:19:03 GMT -5 Feargus McReddit said:

He absolutely does not.

Hell, he's probably more likely the guy to say "Well, that's just how they work" to most of the booking decisions now.

Yes he does certainly in terms of his star ratings.

The ones that are just his opinions and ones that he constantly says are his opinions and doesn't understand why people take them so seriously like most critics with star ratings?

I mean, that's different from reporting on something he's given.

[Dub H]

There is no way to visually differentiate between 93.000 and near 80.000.

[Feargus McReddit]

My view is, basically, if we take Bix's research into consideration with it involving skyboxes and such, 80,000+ at the Silverdome is still mightily impressive for that time period.

And they're also not going to admit it because, well, whose going to be the 2023 shareholder that's going to ask about it when there's more reason for them to care about the SummerSlam 2023 attendance and box office because that's what they're going to make their money from.