Zone Was Wrong
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Currently living off the high that AEW brings every Wednesday and Friday
Posts: 17,801
|
Post by Zone Was Wrong on Sept 17, 2024 13:00:56 GMT -5
It's easy to fall in to the trap of like, "Well he's under federal investigation" or "Maybe they didn't read the allegations in the Grant lawsuit", to see what's going on here as people being cautious about trying to deal with learning the man they respected was a sex creep, but like. Rita Chatterton accused Vince decades ago. The exploitative and sometimes retributive treatment of women on television happened during a time Foley was a full time talent. He spent a length of his booking going on what some felt was a bit too much paternalistic weirdness toward women he worked with. Women who have publicly stated their discomfort at having to make out with their boss in front of a camera or who were themselves abused by Vince or by others in the company. Frankly, I think a lot of people have been turning a blind eye to these things from the very start. Vince did not magically turn evil one day, he's been like this, and for people to have lived in that environment and not be able to connect the dots, to me, speaks of willfully disconnecting themselves from reality. Mick saw nothing then and Mick refuses to see things now, and it's patterns of behavior that set in long before the dementia did. Yes, loyalty to Vince has been baked into these peoples' minds, yes they too are victims of a manipulator, but at some point people are doing this at their own expense. Vince has never been a good guy and these people knew it firsthand. Saw it play out again and again. To see and live through all Vince is capable of, to be there for the behaviors that were him publicly power fantasy-ing the misdeeds did behind closed doors, and to still think "Gosh I dunno I need to see proof" is willful. At some point the idea that "they're brainwashed" needs to take a hike. People are ultimately in charge of their own actions and thoughts. At some point these adults that are defending Vince have to be considered masters of their own motivations and thought processes. People like Mick and Fatu above have to be be considered responsible for what they believe. I can only put up with, "a bunch of people have been brainwashed" by Vince for so long. They saw for DECADES what kind of person he is, better than us. I can guarantee he was more overt backstage about his vileness than just Kiss My Ass segments or making divas bark like dogs. These people saw how terrible dude was and just continue to shrug their shoulders about it no matter how many people come out with evidence and accusations. |
|
|
|
Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Sept 17, 2024 13:01:13 GMT -5
Mick is such a weird dude in the sense that he's either incredibly progressive or he says really stupid shit like this his brain is also likely swiss cheese due to his career |
|
Ben Wyatt
Crow T. Robot
Are You Gonna Go My Way?
I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
Posts: 41,864
Member is Online
|
Post by Ben Wyatt on Sept 17, 2024 13:17:07 GMT -5
Mick is such a weird dude in the sense that he's either incredibly progressive or he says really stupid shit like this his brain is also likely swiss cheese due to his career Respectfully, that excuse is kinda letting Mick off the hook and as much as I generally like the guy, I just feel icky handwaving it off. |
|
|
|
Post by Feargus McReddit on Sept 17, 2024 13:21:44 GMT -5
his brain is also likely swiss cheese due to his career Respectfully, that excuse is kinda letting Mick off the hook and as much as I generally like the guy, I just feel icky handwaving it off. Yeah, especially in an area with guys just as beaten up, if not more so, being able to not come off as assholes. |
|
|
|
Post by Final Countdown Jones on Sept 17, 2024 13:24:38 GMT -5
It's easy to fall in to the trap of like, "Well he's under federal investigation" or "Maybe they didn't read the allegations in the Grant lawsuit", to see what's going on here as people being cautious about trying to deal with learning the man they respected was a sex creep, but like. Rita Chatterton accused Vince decades ago. The exploitative and sometimes retributive treatment of women on television happened during a time Foley was a full time talent. He spent a length of his booking going on what some felt was a bit too much paternalistic weirdness toward women he worked with. Women who have publicly stated their discomfort at having to make out with their boss in front of a camera or who were themselves abused by Vince or by others in the company. Frankly, I think a lot of people have been turning a blind eye to these things from the very start. Vince did not magically turn evil one day, he's been like this, and for people to have lived in that environment and not be able to connect the dots, to me, speaks of willfully disconnecting themselves from reality. Mick saw nothing then and Mick refuses to see things now, and it's patterns of behavior that set in long before the dementia did. Yes, loyalty to Vince has been baked into these peoples' minds, yes they too are victims of a manipulator, but at some point people are doing this at their own expense. Vince has never been a good guy and these people knew it firsthand. Saw it play out again and again. To see and live through all Vince is capable of, to be there for the behaviors that were him publicly power fantasy-ing the misdeeds did behind closed doors, and to still think "Gosh I dunno I need to see proof" is willful. At some point the idea that "they're brainwashed" needs to take a hike. People are ultimately in charge of their own actions and thoughts. At some point these adults that are defending Vince have to be considered masters of their own motivations and thought processes. People like Mick and Fatu above have to be be considered responsible for what they believe. I can only put up with, "a bunch of people have been brainwashed" by Vince for so long. They saw for DECADES what kind of person he is, better than us. I can guarantee he was more overt backstage about his vileness than just Kiss My Ass segments or making divas bark like dogs. These people saw how terrible dude was and just continue to shrug their shoulders about it no matter how many people come out with evidence and accusations. How many 'crazy Vince' stories don't get passed around because they didn't have some funny component to them? How many people witnessed Vince going off the rails and were chilled into just not saying anything about it? How many little things do you think people saw and just quietly filed away? The segments where Vince sexaully assaulted female wrestlers in kayfabe while in real life those women were uncomfortable as f*** were awkward to watch in the actually cut for television fake part, imagine how much more dour they were with Vince's behavior before and after, with the people who had to do that standing around, with production people giving orders or Vince taking the reins to say he wanted things done in (X) way. These things didn't become rumours out of nowhere, Vince's reputation isn't some homunculus the fanbase crafted because they were angry about John Cena's push. This is a man who made a big deal of him being ally and friend to the abuser's victims going "I dunno you guys" despite everything he knows about Vince, it takes a certain level of intent to not see anything. |
|
Chiral
Salacious Crumb
Posts: 77,410 
|
Post by Chiral on Sept 17, 2024 13:35:09 GMT -5
Mick condemned Vince more for yelling at him on commentary and treated that like a major breach of character of the Vince he thought he knew than he did for this.
|
|
The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
Posts: 37,713 
|
Post by The Ichi on Sept 17, 2024 13:40:04 GMT -5
Yeah Mick gets zero free passes just because he's been hit in the head a lot, unless someone can scientifically prove that a side effect of that is being a rape-apologist.
He's probably smarter still than 50 Rybacks, who coincidentally is one of the few wrestlers not afraid to call Vince out.
|
|
XIII
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 19,051
|
Post by XIII on Sept 17, 2024 13:41:47 GMT -5
I get that Vince is a big reason these guys made a lot of money…but the money has long been in their bank accounts it’s okay to call him out as a creepy rapist/abuser.
A lot of these guys that condemn a guy like Mil Mascaras for being arrogant and selfish look the other way when there’s an absolute mountain of evidence showing that Vince is a straight up piece of shit that should have been locked up years ago. The cult of personality is wild, mang.
|
|
|
|
Post by MrElijah on Sept 17, 2024 13:45:14 GMT -5
Respectfully, that excuse is kinda letting Mick off the hook and as much as I generally like the guy, I just feel icky handwaving it off. Yeah, especially in an area with guys just as beaten up, if not more so, being able to not come off as assholes. Didn't Bret call Vince, a creep? |
|
|
|
Post by Feargus McReddit on Sept 17, 2024 13:45:52 GMT -5
Yeah, especially in an area with guys just as beaten up, if not more so, being able to not come off as assholes. Didn't Bret call Vince, a creep? Absolutely he did. |
|
|
|
Post by MrElijah on Sept 17, 2024 13:52:58 GMT -5
Didn't Bret call Vince, a creep? Absolutely he did. Yeah, Bret don't pull too many punches. |
|
khali
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,923
|
Post by khali on Sept 17, 2024 14:50:06 GMT -5
It's easy to fall in to the trap of like, "Well he's under federal investigation" or "Maybe they didn't read the allegations in the Grant lawsuit", to see what's going on here as people being cautious about trying to deal with learning the man they respected was a sex creep, but like. Rita Chatterton accused Vince decades ago. The exploitative and sometimes retributive treatment of women on television happened during a time Foley was a full time talent. He spent a length of his booking going on what some felt was a bit too much paternalistic weirdness toward women he worked with. Women who have publicly stated their discomfort at having to make out with their boss in front of a camera or who were themselves abused by Vince or by others in the company. Frankly, I think a lot of people have been turning a blind eye to these things from the very start. Vince did not magically turn evil one day, he's been like this, and for people to have lived in that environment and not be able to connect the dots, to me, speaks of willfully disconnecting themselves from reality. Mick saw nothing then and Mick refuses to see things now, and it's patterns of behavior that set in long before the dementia did. Yes, loyalty to Vince has been baked into these peoples' minds, yes they too are victims of a manipulator, but at some point people are doing this at their own expense. Vince has never been a good guy and these people knew it firsthand. Saw it play out again and again. To see and live through all Vince is capable of, to be there for the behaviors that were him publicly power fantasy-ing the misdeeds did behind closed doors, and to still think "Gosh I dunno I need to see proof" is willful. This is absolutely all 100% correct and it’s part of why wrestlers putting their head in the sand about this is so bad. I could figure out that Vince was a creep *just by watching the tv shows and what he did on them.* We all saw the demeaning stuff he did to women on tv, and I’m supposed to believe nobody in the locker room over 40 plus years had any inkling that Vince was up to bad stuff off camera? Rita Chatterton was in the 80s. Janel Grant was only a few years ago. If you’ve got two brain cells to rub together, it’s pretty easy to assume that Vince probably abused a lot more women in that wide a timeframe. It was, in all likelihood, going on the entire time he was running the company. But somehow none of these wrestlers can wrap their heads around it! It’s the damndest thing. It’s such a shock to them. So out of character for Vince. Ultimately, the reality here is that we have to assume that most wrestlers throughout history were just not good people at all and just don’t care about this stuff. |
|
|
|
Post by Feargus McReddit on Sept 17, 2024 15:00:45 GMT -5
Rita Chatterton was in the 80s. Janel Grant was only a few years ago. If you’ve got two brain cells to rub together, it’s pretty easy to assume that Vince probably abused a lot more women in that wide a timeframe. It was, in all likelihood, going on the entire time he was running the company. You don’t even need to think about it that hard. Just remember that the guy had to pay $12m to WWE for the NDAs he payed to four women for 16 years since that wasn’t counted in costs for those years in quarterly/yearly reports. Neither of then Rita or Janel. |
|
|
|
Post by Final Countdown Jones on Sept 17, 2024 15:11:29 GMT -5
It's easy to fall in to the trap of like, "Well he's under federal investigation" or "Maybe they didn't read the allegations in the Grant lawsuit", to see what's going on here as people being cautious about trying to deal with learning the man they respected was a sex creep, but like. Rita Chatterton accused Vince decades ago. The exploitative and sometimes retributive treatment of women on television happened during a time Foley was a full time talent. He spent a length of his booking going on what some felt was a bit too much paternalistic weirdness toward women he worked with. Women who have publicly stated their discomfort at having to make out with their boss in front of a camera or who were themselves abused by Vince or by others in the company. Frankly, I think a lot of people have been turning a blind eye to these things from the very start. Vince did not magically turn evil one day, he's been like this, and for people to have lived in that environment and not be able to connect the dots, to me, speaks of willfully disconnecting themselves from reality. Mick saw nothing then and Mick refuses to see things now, and it's patterns of behavior that set in long before the dementia did. Yes, loyalty to Vince has been baked into these peoples' minds, yes they too are victims of a manipulator, but at some point people are doing this at their own expense. Vince has never been a good guy and these people knew it firsthand. Saw it play out again and again. To see and live through all Vince is capable of, to be there for the behaviors that were him publicly power fantasy-ing the misdeeds did behind closed doors, and to still think "Gosh I dunno I need to see proof" is willful. This is absolutely all 100% correct and it’s part of why wrestlers putting their head in the sand about this is so bad. I could figure out that Vince was a creep *just by watching the tv shows and what he did on them.* We all saw the demeaning stuff he did to women on tv, and I’m supposed to believe nobody in the locker room over 40 plus years had any inkling that Vince was up to bad stuff off camera? Rita Chatterton was in the 80s. Janel Grant was only a few years ago. If you’ve got two brain cells to rub together, it’s pretty easy to assume that Vince probably abused a lot more women in that wide a timeframe. It was, in all likelihood, going on the entire time he was running the company. But somehow none of these wrestlers can wrap their heads around it! It’s the damndest thing. It’s such a shock to them. So out of character for Vince. Ultimately, the reality here is that we have to assume that most wrestlers throughout history were just not good people at all and just don’t care about this stuff. It would be easy to assume and you don't even have to assume; there were multiple other NDAs found with different women. Some of them even have, while names are redacted, specific dates and incidents you can link up to publicly available information, find out who the person in question is, and then go "Oh my god" because shit done to them on national television suddenly makes absolute sense as a spiteful punishment for not putting out. Even the publicly available information leads to multiple new instances we have no info on, and those are just the ones who went after him and got an NDA, I'm sure that number pales still in comparison to the sum total of what he's done for decades to women too ashamed to come forward or in denial about what happened. Galaxies of horrific shit where it's worth asking how in the blue hell anyone can look at all of this and just go "Yeah what a guy he probably didn't do rapes". But then there's talk that Vince tried to pimp Grant out to Brock, there's all the Laurinaitis shit, there's just. There's no way. This makes zero f***ing sense. At absolute minimum people should be remembering stuff they once thought was just Vince consensually having affairs or whatever and going "Oh f*** wait no hold on f*** f*** f*** f***" and still somehow the deeply evil everything about Vince McMahon isn't enough for them to come around on it. |
|
Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,588
Member is Online
|
Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Sept 17, 2024 15:11:56 GMT -5
Respectfully, that excuse is kinda letting Mick off the hook and as much as I generally like the guy, I just feel icky handwaving it off. Yeah, especially in an area with guys just as beaten up, if not more so, being able to not come off as assholes. Stevie Richards had a good bit on that this week, if you look on YouTube for his reaction to the Hogan/Benoit comment, going through loads of excuses for Benoit when there were stories, it was just his behaviour and we'll never know how much injury contributed so you can't let him off. |
|
|
|
Post by The Heartbreak TWERK on Sept 17, 2024 15:23:04 GMT -5
Remember kids, it costs nothing to shut the f*** up!
|
|
|
|
Post by The Heartbreak TWERK on Sept 17, 2024 15:24:43 GMT -5
Yeah, especially in an area with guys just as beaten up, if not more so, being able to not come off as assholes. Stevie Richards had a good bit on that this week, if you look on YouTube for his reaction to the Hogan/Benoit comment, going through loads of excuses for Benoit when there were stories, it was just his behaviour and we'll never know how much injury contributed so you can't let him off. For as repugnant as he can be, and he certainly is repugnant, Paul Heyman said something I agree with. Whatever was going on in Chris Benoit's mind at the time doesn't matter. Daniel and Nancy were innocent, and they were robbed of their lives and dignity by that man. |
|
khali
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,923
|
Post by khali on Sept 17, 2024 16:07:52 GMT -5
Maybe I’d have like 1% of more empathy for any wrestler about Vince if there was any semblance of him being a good guy or even a good boss in the public sphere. You can feel bad for someone who didn’t have any inkling their partner was a horrible criminal. This is emphatically not the case here. There’s not a treasure trove of good guy Vince stories. Even in the “fun” Vince stories he’s very off.
|
|
|
|
Post by BorneAgain on Sept 17, 2024 16:33:37 GMT -5
Sometimes the dark jokes just write themselves.
|
|
|
|
Post by polarbearpete on Sept 17, 2024 21:03:52 GMT -5
It's easy to fall in to the trap of like, "Well he's under federal investigation" or "Maybe they didn't read the allegations in the Grant lawsuit", to see what's going on here as people being cautious about trying to deal with learning the man they respected was a sex creep, but like. Rita Chatterton accused Vince decades ago. The exploitative and sometimes retributive treatment of women on television happened during a time Foley was a full time talent. He spent a length of his booking going on what some felt was a bit too much paternalistic weirdness toward women he worked with. Women who have publicly stated their discomfort at having to make out with their boss in front of a camera or who were themselves abused by Vince or by others in the company. Frankly, I think a lot of people have been turning a blind eye to these things from the very start. Vince did not magically turn evil one day, he's been like this, and for people to have lived in that environment and not be able to connect the dots, to me, speaks of willfully disconnecting themselves from reality. Mick saw nothing then and Mick refuses to see things now, and it's patterns of behavior that set in long before the dementia did. Yes, loyalty to Vince has been baked into these peoples' minds, yes they too are victims of a manipulator, but at some point people are doing this at their own expense. Vince has never been a good guy and these people knew it firsthand. Saw it play out again and again. To see and live through all Vince is capable of, to be there for the behaviors that were him publicly power fantasy-ing the misdeeds did behind closed doors, and to still think "Gosh I dunno I need to see proof" is willful. This is absolutely all 100% correct and it’s part of why wrestlers putting their head in the sand about this is so bad. I could figure out that Vince was a creep *just by watching the tv shows and what he did on them.* We all saw the demeaning stuff he did to women on tv, and I’m supposed to believe nobody in the locker room over 40 plus years had any inkling that Vince was up to bad stuff off camera? Rita Chatterton was in the 80s. Janel Grant was only a few years ago. If you’ve got two brain cells to rub together, it’s pretty easy to assume that Vince probably abused a lot more women in that wide a timeframe. It was, in all likelihood, going on the entire time he was running the company. But somehow none of these wrestlers can wrap their heads around it! It’s the damndest thing. It’s such a shock to them. So out of character for Vince. Ultimately, the reality here is that we have to assume that most wrestlers throughout history were just not good people at all and just don’t care about this stuff. No way I’m jumping to any conclusions on Mick Foley of all people being “not a good” person based on some sound bytes that he’s willing to make on this topic. |
|
