khali
Dennis Stamp
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Post by khali on Sept 18, 2024 16:20:42 GMT -5
Rikishi has already been acting like kind of a dumbass for awhile now. So while what he said was gross, it's not exactly unexpected. If Foley wasn't an outspoken advocated for victims of sex crimes, I'd be disappointed because I did like Foley a lot and he was nice when I met him. But not to this degree where it almost comes off like a betrayal of what he's stood for in the past. Exactly right. Foley should, in theory, understand this issue better than almost all of us because he’s put in the literal hours on this. He worked the crisis hotline for RAINN for hundreds of hours. He should understand this better than any untrained man can. And then he says this. |
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Sept 18, 2024 16:27:18 GMT -5
I'm sorry but some of you we just can't win with. If we were giving Foley a free pass the narrative would immediately be "IWC favourite gets free pass". We're not asking for him to be blackballed from the industry, we're saying we're disappointed. It's simple, someone being good to you doesn't mean you should turn a blind eye if they do something bad. I'm not saying it's easy (I've struggled with this very thing this year), but it's nessacary. How Mr. "All female fans are ring rats" has the only sensible take so far is beyond me. An entire clown car full of dudes empties out whenever someone this board doesn't like gets ripped on to try and gun for that double standards hypocrite argument. There was a Hogan thread a few years ago where some guy was on about how nobody gives Ultimate Warrior shit for his homophobia when right there on the same forum page was a thread complaining about WWE whitewashing his legacy. Hell, just look at what happened with jm in the recent Hogan thread. This would absolutely be the state right now. |
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khali
Dennis Stamp
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Post by khali on Sept 18, 2024 16:36:49 GMT -5
I'm sorry but some of you we just can't win with. If we were giving Foley a free pass the narrative would immediately be "IWC favourite gets free pass". We're not asking for him to be blackballed from the industry, we're saying we're disappointed. It's simple, someone being good to you doesn't mean you should turn a blind eye if they do something bad. I'm not saying it's easy (I've struggled with this very thing this year), but it's nessacary. How Mr. "All female fans are ring rats" has the only sensible take so far is beyond me. An entire clown car full of dudes empties out whenever someone this board doesn't like gets ripped on to try and gun for that double standards hypocrite argument. There was a Hogan thread a few years ago where some guy was on about how nobody gives Ultimate Warrior shit for his homophobia when right there on the same forum page was a thread complaining about WWE whitewashing his legacy. Hell, just look at what happened with jm in the recent Hogan thread. This would absolutely be the state right now. I didn’t even call Foley a bad person, I just said that we probably need to accept that a majority of people in wrestling aren’t great. That got me multiple replies of “well I’m not ready to call him a bad person.” |
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Post by polarbearpete on Sept 18, 2024 16:49:26 GMT -5
An entire clown car full of dudes empties out whenever someone this board doesn't like gets ripped on to try and gun for that double standards hypocrite argument. There was a Hogan thread a few years ago where some guy was on about how nobody gives Ultimate Warrior shit for his homophobia when right there on the same forum page was a thread complaining about WWE whitewashing his legacy. Hell, just look at what happened with jm in the recent Hogan thread. This would absolutely be the state right now. I didn’t even call Foley a bad person, I just said that we probably need to accept that a majority of people in wrestling aren’t great. That got me multiple replies of “well I’m not ready to call him a bad person.” I think that’s probably pointed at me. I did take it as you saying he’s not a good person which to me is not a leap I said I’d be willing to take when comparing his thousands of hours of charity work for many causes including this one to his words on this one specific issue (which may or may not have a coping/trauma/pushing things off element to it). Anyone is free to make that leap themselves of course, but I’d say I’m disappointed in what he said but not judging his entire moral character on it. |
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Sept 18, 2024 16:50:31 GMT -5
At least for me, and I assume others, it’s because Foley has been seen as one of the “better” guys for lack of a better term and because he’s publicly been an advocate for victims of sexual abuse. It makes it particularly bad for that reason. What Rikishi said is awful, but I’m not particularly shocked when any random wrestler says a bad thing of that sort now. But I thought more highly of Foley in particular so it matters more. Yeah that's fair. It's a little different for me because I remember hearing Foley say some stupid shit about all of this already months ago, closer to when all of this came out. He said something akin to "I hope this doesn't take away from the things he created, including my character" but as the same time saying it reminded him of when he found about about Benoit and that whole situation. He also went on to say how tremendously sad all of it made him. Again it's no excuse but if anyone back then saw Vince as a father figure and put up with his constant abusive bullshit on the men's side, I would personally put my money on Foley. Him and Jim Ross. I think he should apologize but to me this is clearly a guy who has no idea what to think and said some absurdly stupid shit which again, trauma. I've kind of brought this up before, but also kind of a form of Stockholm Syndrome. Not necessarily in the usual sense, but in this weird, trauma-induced miasma of "Why was he allowed to get away with what he did to me, but not to someone else?" And not even that it means that person actually thinks he should keep getting away with it, but is distraught that it seems like nobody did anything when that person was the victim, and can't come to terms with it. |
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UN PLOMBIER NIGHTMARE #blm
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Post by UN PLOMBIER NIGHTMARE #blm on Sept 18, 2024 17:02:01 GMT -5
Yeah that's fair. It's a little different for me because I remember hearing Foley say some stupid shit about all of this already months ago, closer to when all of this came out. He said something akin to "I hope this doesn't take away from the things he created, including my character" but as the same time saying it reminded him of when he found about about Benoit and that whole situation. He also went on to say how tremendously sad all of it made him. Again it's no excuse but if anyone back then saw Vince as a father figure and put up with his constant abusive bullshit on the men's side, I would personally put my money on Foley. Him and Jim Ross. I think he should apologize but to me this is clearly a guy who has no idea what to think and said some absurdly stupid shit which again, trauma. I've kind of brought this up before, but also kind of a form of Stockholm Syndrome. Not necessarily in the usual sense, but in this weird, trauma-induced miasma of "Why was he allowed to get away with what he did to me, but not to someone else?" And not even that it means that person actually thinks he should keep getting away with it, but is distraught that it seems like nobody did anything when that person was the victim, and can't come to terms with it. Yeah I get that. And I don’t think anyone should be angry at anyone angry at Foley either. People come into these awful situations and events with their own preconceived notions about absolutely anything in the world and it’s impossible to not carry them with ya. I think it’s pretty fair to assume most wrestlers are as Khali said, this is an industry built off of head injuries, drugs and who the hell knows what else. |
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Sept 18, 2024 17:05:43 GMT -5
I've kind of brought this up before, but also kind of a form of Stockholm Syndrome. Not necessarily in the usual sense, but in this weird, trauma-induced miasma of "Why was he allowed to get away with what he did to me, but not to someone else?" And not even that it means that person actually thinks he should keep getting away with it, but is distraught that it seems like nobody did anything when that person was the victim, and can't come to terms with it. Yeah I get that. And I don’t think anyone should be angry at anyone angry at Foley either. People come into these awful situations and events with their own preconceived notions about absolutely anything in the world and it’s impossible to not carry them with ya. I think it’s pretty fair to assume most wrestlers are as Khali said, this is an industry built off of head injuries, drugs and who the hell knows what else. Yeah, I'm not really here to run interference on behalf of any wrestlers, that's not the sort of thing I'd want to do. Just, kind of sadly really taking in how unfortunate the business has always been, with the biggest company in the business having been run by a serial abuser for 40 years, and most of the territory bosses that came before him not being that much better, in terms of their relationships with the talent. |
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Post by The Captain on Sept 18, 2024 17:05:52 GMT -5
I'm sorry but some of you we just can't win with. If we were giving Foley a free pass the narrative would immediately be "IWC favourite gets free pass". We're not asking for him to be blackballed from the industry, we're saying we're disappointed. It's simple, someone being good to you doesn't mean you should turn a blind eye if they do something bad. I'm not saying it's easy (I've struggled with this very thing this year), but it's nessacary. How Mr. "All female fans are ring rats" has the only sensible take so far is beyond me. An entire clown car full of dudes empties out whenever someone this board doesn't like gets ripped on to try and gun for that double standards hypocrite argument. There was a Hogan thread a few years ago where some guy was on about how nobody gives Ultimate Warrior shit for his homophobia when right there on the same forum page was a thread complaining about WWE whitewashing his legacy. Hell, just look at what happened with jm in the recent Hogan thread. This would absolutely be the state right now. That Hogan thread was so embarrassing for a lot of people. |
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khali
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,910
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Post by khali on Sept 18, 2024 17:10:53 GMT -5
An entire clown car full of dudes empties out whenever someone this board doesn't like gets ripped on to try and gun for that double standards hypocrite argument. There was a Hogan thread a few years ago where some guy was on about how nobody gives Ultimate Warrior shit for his homophobia when right there on the same forum page was a thread complaining about WWE whitewashing his legacy. Hell, just look at what happened with jm in the recent Hogan thread. This would absolutely be the state right now. That Hogan thread was so embarrassing for a lot of people. Trying to decide if I want to see this thread or not. |
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Sept 18, 2024 17:17:27 GMT -5
At least for me, and I assume others, it’s because Foley has been seen as one of the “better” guys for lack of a better term and because he’s publicly been an advocate for victims of sexual abuse. It makes it particularly bad for that reason. This is... hm. I don't want to criticize this, because it's a common enough reaction among sensible people that I know there's something to it. But it's never made a lot of sense to me, personally. The immorality of one specific action is what it is regardless of the general moral character of the person doing it, right? If anything, I feel like a bad thing done by a "good person" is LESS bad than the same thing done by a "bad person," because I can be more confident the latter has base motivations. Like, pulling back, I'm pretty much on the same page as most people: this is a bad thing to say deserving of condemnation, and it reveals an example of genuine moral fallibility on Foley's part, though it doesn't invalidate the good he's done before. But this specific thing of, like... his statement is worse BECAUSE he seems to be good in a lot of ways... I can't wrap my head around it. The other thing is, it's hard for me to focus on the moral characters of these specific people anyway, because what's so salient to me is the ways the culture of this company has been characterized by cruelty and dehumanization. And it's easy to see the biggest victims of that, and the biggest perpetrators of it. But beyond that, it's such a diffuse blob of toxicity, I can't feel much but pity for most everyone involved. Like, yeah, it's obviously immoral to shut off your compassion for a victim, but christ, look at all these sad people who feel like they had to learn how to do that. |
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Sept 18, 2024 17:19:32 GMT -5
At least for me, and I assume others, it’s because Foley has been seen as one of the “better” guys for lack of a better term and because he’s publicly been an advocate for victims of sexual abuse. It makes it particularly bad for that reason. This is... hm. I don't want to criticize this, because it's a common enough reaction among sensible people that I know there's something to it. But it's never made a lot of sense to me, personally. The immorality of one specific action is what it is regardless of the general moral character of the person doing it, right? If anything, I feel like a bad thing done by a "good person" is LESS bad than the same thing done by a "bad person," because I can be more confident the latter has base motivations. Like, pulling back, I'm pretty much on the same page as most people: this is a bad thing to say deserving of condemnation, and it reveals an example of genuine moral fallibility on Foley's part, though it doesn't invalidate the good he's done before. But this specific thing of, like... his statement is worse BECAUSE he seems to be good in a lot of ways... I can't wrap my head around it. The other thing is, it's hard for me to focus on the moral characters of these specific people anyway, because what's so salient to me is the ways the culture of this company has been characterized by cruelty and dehumanization. And it's easy to see the biggest victims of that, and the biggest perpetrators of it. But beyond that, it's such a diffuse blob of toxicity, I can't feel much but pity for most everyone involved. Like, yeah, it's obviously immoral to shut off your compassion for a victim, but christ, look at all these sad people who feel like they had to learn how to do that. I kind of wonder how much of it is a sort of extrapolation. Like, "This person has good views about thing X, Y, and Z, so surely they're ALWAYS going to align with all of my values!" (Note : I'm not assigning this to any specific person, it's kind of a generic statement.) And then something happens where that isn't the case, and there's a whiplash effect. |
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khali
Dennis Stamp
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Post by khali on Sept 18, 2024 17:27:38 GMT -5
That Hogan thread was so embarrassing for a lot of people. Trying to decide if I want to see this thread or not. Update: I shouldn’t have looked at that Hogan thread. |
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Post by Stone Coke Miami Watson 🥃 on Sept 19, 2024 0:44:19 GMT -5
An entire clown car full of dudes empties out whenever someone this board doesn't like gets ripped on to try and gun for that double standards hypocrite argument. There was a Hogan thread a few years ago where some guy was on about how nobody gives Ultimate Warrior shit for his homophobia when right there on the same forum page was a thread complaining about WWE whitewashing his legacy. Hell, just look at what happened with jm in the recent Hogan thread. This would absolutely be the state right now. That Hogan thread was so embarrassing for a lot of people. Out of morbid curiosity, can you link the thread? |
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msc
Dennis Stamp
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Post by msc on Sept 19, 2024 1:31:24 GMT -5
This is... hm. I don't want to criticize this, because it's a common enough reaction among sensible people that I know there's something to it. But it's never made a lot of sense to me, personally. The immorality of one specific action is what it is regardless of the general moral character of the person doing it, right? If anything, I feel like a bad thing done by a "good person" is LESS bad than the same thing done by a "bad person," because I can be more confident the latter has base motivations. Like, pulling back, I'm pretty much on the same page as most people: this is a bad thing to say deserving of condemnation, and it reveals an example of genuine moral fallibility on Foley's part, though it doesn't invalidate the good he's done before. But this specific thing of, like... his statement is worse BECAUSE he seems to be good in a lot of ways... I can't wrap my head around it. The other thing is, it's hard for me to focus on the moral characters of these specific people anyway, because what's so salient to me is the ways the culture of this company has been characterized by cruelty and dehumanization. And it's easy to see the biggest victims of that, and the biggest perpetrators of it. But beyond that, it's such a diffuse blob of toxicity, I can't feel much but pity for most everyone involved. Like, yeah, it's obviously immoral to shut off your compassion for a victim, but christ, look at all these sad people who feel like they had to learn how to do that. I kind of wonder how much of it is a sort of extrapolation. Like, "This person has good views about thing X, Y, and Z, so surely they're ALWAYS going to align with all of my values!" (Note : I'm not assigning this to any specific person, it's kind of a generic statement.) And then something happens where that isn't the case, and there's a whiplash effect. It is a recurring theme in culture that society tends to get more annoyed at the f*** ups of people who can be good far more than the villains. My go to example is Agatha Christie, who was surprisingly progressive for her era, but the moments of dated racism in her books get called out more heavily than the unrepentant racists (hi Lovecraft) and bigots of the same time. We assume if someone was decent they'll be universally decent. In terms of Foley, medical experts said his brain was f***ed decades ago and the cte labs want his brain posthumously so I'm more surprised he doesn't say stupid shit all the time. I suspect his activism shows where his heart lies on abuse but at the same time I'm not going to criticise anyone let down or who no longer likes Foley as a result of these comments. That's understandable. Caveat, someone I looked up to as a kid, an older friend, was later jailed for paedophilia. It's a minefield to discover someone you knew was actually a monster, as no doubt too many people in here know personally. I unpersoned them from the day I found out but a bunch of mutual friends still suffer PTSD like trauma. |
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Post by kneejerk on Sept 19, 2024 1:47:01 GMT -5
As someone who has met Foley and he was super cool to me. It's incredibly disappointing to hear his take.
I don't think in good consciousness I can have his books on my shelf anymore.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Sept 19, 2024 9:01:54 GMT -5
Mick needs to ask himself, "Would I, knowing Vince as well as I do, leave Noelle alone with him for any length of time?"
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Sept 19, 2024 9:15:22 GMT -5
Mick needs to ask himself, "Would I, knowing Vince as well as I do, leave Noelle alone with him for any length of time?" Thing is, there's a non 0% chance he might have actually done that at some time, so he'd have to reconcile that. |
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Sept 19, 2024 9:20:13 GMT -5
Mick needs to ask himself, "Would I, knowing Vince as well as I do, leave Noelle alone with him for any length of time?" Thing is, there's a non 0% chance he might have actually done that at some time, so he'd have to reconcile that. I'd wager there's also very much a non-0% chance that Vince hasn't made "jokes" to Mick at some point in the last decade about Noelle being all grown up. |
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
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The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,529
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Sept 19, 2024 9:22:34 GMT -5
Thing is, there's a non 0% chance he might have actually done that at some time, so he'd have to reconcile that. I'd wager there's also very much a non-0% chance that Vince hasn't made "jokes" to Mick at some point in the last decade about Noelle being all grown up. Oh jeez, I need another shower now. But yeah, I'm not making excuses for the guy at ALL but how messed up would your head be with all this happening under your nose with someone you're that close to and has been around your family. Hopefully he very, VERY quickly can process that and see it for what it is. |
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khali
Dennis Stamp
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Post by khali on Sept 19, 2024 9:30:53 GMT -5
Mick needs to ask himself, "Would I, knowing Vince as well as I do, leave Noelle alone with him for any length of time?" I get what you’re going for here, but in general it’s a pet peeve of mine when people try to frame their statements this way. The “as the father of a daughter, I am appalled” kind of things. You shouldn’t need to have kids to understand that something is bad! |
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