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Post by MrElijah on Mar 4, 2024 21:43:07 GMT -5
Guy gets dropped on his head then immediately dropped on the back of his head, he then immediately springs back into action like it never happened. Is he superhuman? Three things about this argument. 1) Crazier things have happened in MMA, which is why old school selling doesn't work as well these days. 2) As Terry Funk, one of the best sellers in pro wrestling history, once said, the best selling is the one that works for the crowd. And that damn sure worked the crowd. 3) As others have said, That was a very modern NJPW sequence. It's crazy for as old school as Terry Funk was, he was pretty ahead in thinking how wrestling would go.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Mar 4, 2024 21:48:30 GMT -5
Remotely believable. I cannot wait for the 180 min long headlock appreciation thread. Yeah, slow wrestling is its own kind of completely ludicrous. Someone with a debilitated limb is not remaining competitive for another minute. Both guys getting knocked down and laying there for a slow count to nine is its own brand of silly. As silly and convoluted as modern moves often are, wrestlers just popping back up and up and up has its own realism to it, in that those quasi-knockouts should be fight-enders and therefore the shorter sells make it more believable that this isn't just ending already. And I love those limb sells! I love watching Kenta Kobashi limp for a half hour while getting increasingly unable to contribute to a tag match. But I also think that it should be recognized as its own kind of heightened reality and drama, not as some kind of realism. A lot of the things people claim are 'realistic' wrestling elements that don't get used anymore, aren't. Never were. Absolutely not present in combat sports or any meaningful form of fighting. They're just using 'realistic' as a way to strengthen 'way I would prefer it'. There's selling and you have to be willfully blind to ignore the moments of selling, but there's a refusal to engage with the idea of hwo a match like this interacts with selling and where it uses it, and how yeah selling does overall take a backseat for the purposes of pace, milking drama out of moments of rest and downtime, and similarly highlighting moments where no or very brief selling is used as an intentional device to convey something in the story becomes storyless loser tripe with no psychology. Like, just the entire concept of selling itself is a silly and ridiculous notion compared to combat sports where breath and adrenaline crashes are often way bigger limiting factors in people slowing down over the course of longer fights, and where large blows will happen in long succession without someone lying on the floor wincing over them for half a minute at a time.
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Post by IgnahtaSempria on Mar 4, 2024 22:14:58 GMT -5
To weigh in on the "realism" stuff: keep in mind, wrestlers have literally finished matches unconscious. Jon Moxley, Kurt Angle, The Undertaker, just to name a few, have all gotten knocked out during matches, their subconscious brain went into autopilot, and they all finished their matches only to wake up hours later not remembering anything they did.
If that can legitimately happen, then getting up after a big move really isn't that "unrealistic".
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Post by Cyno on Mar 4, 2024 22:16:44 GMT -5
To weigh in on the "realism" stuff: keep in mind, wrestlers have literally finished matches unconscious. Jon Moxley, Kurt Angle, The Undertaker, just to name a few, have all gotten knocked out during matches, their subconscious brain went into autopilot, and they all finished their matches only to wake up hours later not remembering anything they did. If that can legitimately happen, then getting up after a big move really isn't that "unrealistic". Anthony Rizzo played baseball for weeks (horribly mind you) without realizing he had post-concussion syndrome. Or that he had even gotten a concussion in the first place.
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Post by HIM on Mar 4, 2024 22:27:44 GMT -5
I hope they have a storied rivalry from now on for the rest of their careers. It's always dope seeing people match up and it just clicks on another level. Like Ambrose/Rollins when they first matched up in FCW.
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Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby
Grimlock
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Post by Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby on Mar 4, 2024 22:31:22 GMT -5
To weigh in on the "realism" stuff: keep in mind, wrestlers have literally finished matches unconscious. Jon Moxley, Kurt Angle, The Undertaker, just to name a few, have all gotten knocked out during matches, their subconscious brain went into autopilot, and they all finished their matches only to wake up hours later not remembering anything they did. If that can legitimately happen, then getting up after a big move really isn't that "unrealistic". Watching how many moves Matt Sydal could do with an injured ankle (ALL OF THEM, it turns out) significantly readjusted my idea of what counts as "realistic."
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chazraps
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Post by chazraps on Mar 4, 2024 22:44:48 GMT -5
They did, just not in the style you probably prefer to see. Guy gets dropped on his head then immediately dropped on the back of his head, he then immediately springs back into action like it never happened. Is he superhuman? It's called Adrenaline.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Mar 4, 2024 22:45:21 GMT -5
To weigh in on the "realism" stuff: keep in mind, wrestlers have literally finished matches unconscious. Jon Moxley, Kurt Angle, The Undertaker, just to name a few, have all gotten knocked out during matches, their subconscious brain went into autopilot, and they all finished their matches only to wake up hours later not remembering anything they did. If that can legitimately happen, then getting up after a big move really isn't that "unrealistic". Mick Foley took the tack bump twice in that Hell in a Cell. When he got to the back, with Tacks sticking out all over him, he asked "Did we get to the tacks spot??" These guys are inhuman, they've worked through insane shit and done stuff I am pretty sure normal people would be crippled by on the ground, screaming in pain. Realism is a subjective fallacy that only falls on someone's bias or distaste for a product or match, especially when a thread of praise is going on for it, and no one else seems to have found any issue with it until this point... in layman's terms we may call that one a Debbie Downer.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
FANatic
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Mar 4, 2024 22:45:56 GMT -5
Guy gets dropped on his head then immediately dropped on the back of his head, he then immediately springs back into action like it never happened. Is he superhuman? It's called Adrenaline. It's in their souls Every thought out of control They do it all to get them off their feet.
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GOTHIC CHARISMA 🧊 🥶❄️FURY
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Post by GOTHIC CHARISMA 🧊 🥶❄️FURY on Mar 4, 2024 23:05:44 GMT -5
Ahhh I wish AEW had streaming. Even after a full 3 hours of Monday Night Raw I really wanna go back and watch this match. Oh well.
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Soultastic
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Post by Soultastic on Mar 4, 2024 23:20:33 GMT -5
It's in their souls Every thought out of control They do it all to get them off their feet. Holy molly they're the big homies
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JoDaNa1281
Crow T. Robot
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Post by JoDaNa1281 on Mar 4, 2024 23:38:29 GMT -5
Great Match!
The fact that it's not even his best match so far this year, imo, is very impressive!
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Post by madness50 on Mar 5, 2024 2:11:33 GMT -5
Was there live for the show. This match absolutely kicked ass. Best match I’ve ever seen live. Standing ovation throughout the Coliseum after the match ended.
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King Devitt
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Post by King Devitt on Mar 5, 2024 6:12:26 GMT -5
I'm glad Takeshita got to remind everyone how goddam good he is. And Ospreay is the perfect dance partner for him (and a LOT of other people going by his body of work). Strap the rocket to Will. He's over. For what he lacks in brains he got exponentially in talent, and just let him cook with the AEW roster. Cannot wait to show this match to the fiancee
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Post by HMARK Center on Mar 5, 2024 7:16:34 GMT -5
Yeah, slow wrestling is its own kind of completely ludicrous. Someone with a debilitated limb is not remaining competitive for another minute. Both guys getting knocked down and laying there for a slow count to nine is its own brand of silly. As silly and convoluted as modern moves often are, wrestlers just popping back up and up and up has its own realism to it, in that those quasi-knockouts should be fight-enders and therefore the shorter sells make it more believable that this isn't just ending already. And I love those limb sells! I love watching Kenta Kobashi limp for a half hour while getting increasingly unable to contribute to a tag match. But I also think that it should be recognized as its own kind of heightened reality and drama, not as some kind of realism. A lot of the things people claim are 'realistic' wrestling elements that don't get used anymore, aren't. Never were. Absolutely not present in combat sports or any meaningful form of fighting. They're just using 'realistic' as a way to strengthen 'way I would prefer it'. There's selling and you have to be willfully blind to ignore the moments of selling, but there's a refusal to engage with the idea of hwo a match like this interacts with selling and where it uses it, and how yeah selling does overall take a backseat for the purposes of pace, milking drama out of moments of rest and downtime, and similarly highlighting moments where no or very brief selling is used as an intentional device to convey something in the story becomes storyless loser tripe with no psychology. Like, just the entire concept of selling itself is a silly and ridiculous notion compared to combat sports where breath and adrenaline crashes are often way bigger limiting factors in people slowing down over the course of longer fights, and where large blows will happen in long succession without someone lying on the floor wincing over them for half a minute at a time. Ultimately, even most three counts don't hold up under very close scrutiny, unless we accept the idea that most pins are the result of a wrestler being literally knocked unconscious for three seconds (usually more, as a post-pin sell often calls for someone to stay down for longer); meanwhile, "too many kickouts" is sometimes taken as too reality-breaking. Yet if we do apply reality to pins, it's very easy to just depict someone as "kicking out on instinct", or even more easily "they're down, but not out". Honestly, I think pin psychology is one of the big areas pro wrestling as a whole could stand to reevaluate or put a different emphasis on; play up that the quality of a cover is of the utmost importance to keep an opponent down; play up that a lot of three counts in big matches are simply that the participant is spent, not unconscious, but simply unable to exert any more energy for enough time that they stay down; get people off the idea that pins are the results of knockouts, basically, and thus undercut the idea that "selling" is relegated to guys acting like they're literally about to die or what have you. Now, granted, wrestling is not an actual combat sport; it's fair to argue that from a theatrical point of view, the traditional western approach to selling might be preferable for the purposes of creating drama for the in-ring narrative being told. It's a subjective thing, and could be an interesting discussion. But the problem is that the 'discourse' instead tends to revolve around what's 'realistic' and thus somehow good or bad for business, which, uh...yeah, that doesn't hold up, at all.
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Mar 5, 2024 9:22:41 GMT -5
I know maybe this is just me, but I've never universally equated "pin" with "knockout".
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