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Post by THE FVNKER on Apr 30, 2024 18:07:21 GMT -5
I don’t think there’s a single topic/viewpoint/opinion I’m more tired of than this one.
Second runner up being when people say:
“Heyman was a creative genius but a bad businessman” as if that’s something they have any first hand knowledge of, but rather they’ve it from co-workers of his for the past 23 years.
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Cranjis McBasketball
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Apr 30, 2024 18:28:59 GMT -5
My only counter to that is, it was overperforming but it wasn't really making that much money. It never recovered from the losses of the year 2000 and with everything else that happened, it was easier to put it on the chopping block than hope it can rebound in some way. Like, it sucks but also calling it "petty BS" feels like an oversimplification and lazy. If it was making a profit in some way, in a time it really needed to, it would have still been in business for longer. End of. There’s nothing to own!! A few trademark names, some rings and a tape library and the tape library is really the only thing of value there. Which is why Hogan, Jericho and several others have said if they knew that was the price it was going to sell for, they would have put up the cash. The rest is just expenses. At the end of the day, it’s just a TV show and it got cancelled like most shows eventually do. Had Russo, Bischoff and the rest not run it into the ground and it was still making money, it would have found a home somewhere besides Vince.
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tafkaga
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Post by tafkaga on Apr 30, 2024 21:50:20 GMT -5
Blaming it on AOL-Time Warner execs and Jamie Kellner is also just too simplistic of an answer. WCW needed the TV deals, but the WCW of 1998 would have had television stations climbing over each other to land Nitro and Thunder if the decision to suddenly axe wrestling had been made at that time. At the very least, the WWF would have needed to actually outbid organizations willing to pay something close to market value if they wanted to own their biggest competitor had it been able to stay competitive after 1999. And the WWF of 2001 was not in a position to do that because the XFL was about to become a giant albatross for them. The fact is that Bischoff/Russo/Hogan/Nash/Sullivan/whoever put WCW in a position where wrestling's detractors had a chance to enact the killing blow, and Jamie Keller was the one who took it. Yeah, Russo, Hogan and Bischoff all had a hand in killing the company because if it was still making the money it was in 96/97 there is no way it gets chopped. Also if the company had some sort of actual structure at any point it might have also not happened. Kellner and Co. pulled the trigger but the rest of the usual suspects loaded the gun. I don't necessarily disagree with any of that, but if we want to talk about who loaded the gun, we have to go back much farther than Bischoff and Hogan, to the very beginning of the company, because it was a mess from before the time it left the Crocketts. There was never a time in the whole history of 'WCW' that it wasn't a mess, but it managed to be a profitable mess for a few years thanks to Bischoff, Hogan, etc. So while I agree that just blaming AOL-Time Warner might not capture every nuance, neither does widening the circle just enough to include the 'usual suspects'. In the end, I think we can say WCW lived because of Ted Turner and died because of a lack of Ted Turner. Ted knew nothing about how to make a wrestling company successful, but it was part of his vision and he was stubbornly committed to keeping it around. That, and the fact that Ted was eventually no longer guiding the ship he built, are the most consequential pieces of the story.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Apr 30, 2024 22:03:35 GMT -5
Yeah, Russo, Hogan and Bischoff all had a hand in killing the company because if it was still making the money it was in 96/97 there is no way it gets chopped. Also if the company had some sort of actual structure at any point it might have also not happened. Kellner and Co. pulled the trigger but the rest of the usual suspects loaded the gun. I don't necessarily disagree with any of that, but if we want to talk about who loaded the gun, we have to go back much farther than Bischoff and Hogan, to the very beginning of the company, because it was a mess from before the time it left the Crocketts. There was never a time in the whole history of 'WCW' that it wasn't a mess, but it managed to be a profitable mess for a few years thanks to Bischoff, Hogan, etc. So while I agree that just blaming AOL-Time Warner might not capture every nuance, neither does widening the circle just enough to include the 'usual suspects'. I literally mentioned that it was always a mess backstage in the post you are quoting.
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Post by Cry Me a Wiggle on Apr 30, 2024 23:20:32 GMT -5
When Norman Smiley put Pepe the stick horse through the wood chipper in early 1999, the soul of WCW died. Everything after that was just a shambling remnant.
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hassanchop
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Post by hassanchop on May 1, 2024 3:43:45 GMT -5
The Rock, eh? I'm sure this will be totally impartial and not spin things to make it look like WCW screwed itself, then. Besides, hasn't it been well established since 2001 that Turner didn't want them anymore, and that WWE had first right of refusal or whatever on a sale? "So the World Wrestling Federation bought WCW and I was asked upon to help integrate WCW talents into the group. So I gave it my all and I'm very proud of myself." Years later
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john84
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Post by john84 on May 1, 2024 5:26:50 GMT -5
Our old pal Corny is gonna be there isn't he? More pooping on Russo bro?
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khali
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Post by khali on May 1, 2024 11:42:22 GMT -5
Bischoff and Russo both being on it already makes it unwatchable. That Bash at the Beach episode was so bad because it was just two dicks who are probably both lying bashing each other.
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Post by Cyno on May 1, 2024 13:19:59 GMT -5
My only counter to that is, it was overperforming but it wasn't really making that much money. It never recovered from the losses of the year 2000 and with everything else that happened, it was easier to put it on the chopping block than hope it can rebound in some way. Like, it sucks but also calling it "petty BS" feels like an oversimplification and lazy. If it was making a profit in some way, in a time it really needed to, it would have still been in business for longer. End of. That and not all ratings are created equal. Wrestling, even during the heights of WWF's popularity, was considered low brow television and their target audience wasn't thought of as the kind who would spend on advertised products by companies who tend to spend the most on advertising. Nielsen ratings are much less a function of popularity as they are demographics and advertisement.
And since Turner/Time Warner-AOL didn't just air WCW, but owned it, they incurred all the operating costs, too. Live television like pro wrestling can be real expensive to produce. Those classic movies they aired might've gotten a tenth of the rating of Nitro, but they're also way cheaper to air. And even in its most successful years, WCW bled a lot of money.
But yeah, without Ted Turner's protecting the company anymore, it was pretty much f***ed. I think if WCW was separate from Time Warner, there's a chance WCW might still be around today. Turner seemed committed to keeping it going no matter how much money it lost him personally. Even if AOL-Time Warner decided to go in another direction, someone would've still been interested in airing a product that even at its creative worst would still be doing pretty solid numbers. Hell, it could've been USA since they just lost WWF Raw to TNN/Spike.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on May 1, 2024 13:31:41 GMT -5
Bischoff and Russo both being on it already makes it unwatchable. That Bash at the Beach episode was so bad because it was just two dicks who are probably both lying bashing each other. Then Dave comes on says no one will ever know the truth because it concerns the three biggest pathological liars in wrestling.
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Post by eJm on May 1, 2024 13:58:56 GMT -5
My only counter to that is, it was overperforming but it wasn't really making that much money. It never recovered from the losses of the year 2000 and with everything else that happened, it was easier to put it on the chopping block than hope it can rebound in some way. Like, it sucks but also calling it "petty BS" feels like an oversimplification and lazy. If it was making a profit in some way, in a time it really needed to, it would have still been in business for longer. End of. That and not all ratings are created equal. Wrestling, even during the heights of WWF's popularity, was considered low brow television and their target audience wasn't thought of as the kind who would spend on advertised products by companies who tend to spend the most on advertising. Nielsen ratings are much less a function of popularity as they are demographics and advertisement.
And since Turner/Time Warner-AOL didn't just air WCW, but owned it, they incurred all the operating costs, too. Live television like pro wrestling can be real expensive to produce. Those classic movies they aired might've gotten a tenth of the rating of Nitro, but they're also way cheaper to air. And even in its most successful years, WCW bled a lot of money. But yeah, without Ted Turner's protecting the company anymore, it was pretty much f***ed. I think if WCW was separate from Time Warner, there's a chance WCW might still be around today. Turner seemed committed to keeping it going no matter how much money it lost him personally. Even if AOL-Time Warner decided to go in another direction, someone would've still been interested in airing a product that even at its creative worst would still be doing pretty solid numbers. Hell, it could've been USA since they just lost WWF Raw to TNN/Spike.
And the thing is, I don't even blaming AOL Time Warner for washing their hands of it when they did. The last couple of years were full of people taking advantage of the fact the main people in charge of Turner Sports had no idea how to deal with how the business was being run by Bischoff or anyone else who took his position that all they could do was switch and hope for the best. Heck, the entire trailer of this show seems to be "It was his fault" "Na-ah!" "Yu-huh!" where the true answer of who killed WCW could only be considered "suicide". Nobody's going to actually admit any sort of fault so we're going to do this song and dance with WCW until the sun explodes and takes out the last reminants of the solar system.
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Post by eJm on May 1, 2024 16:39:02 GMT -5
And just to add with my point above, sure, you can absolutely make the case that whilst the end of 2000 to 2001 wasn't perfect, it felt like they were turning things around and people were being built and Nitro and Thunder could have kept on but under Bischoff and his consortium's ownership...what was the reason to take the risk? What was chance 1001 going to do that the first 1000 chances didn't try before? There were no more rolls of the dice, no more disgruntled WWF creative people to go after unless they wanted to deal with Bill Watts again and they couldn't even do the nWo again because they literally just did the nWo again!
The wider point is goddamn I'm not looking forward to the same arguments trotted out over and over again about WCW and what happened 23 years after it died. I'd rather have my eyes forced opened and a bunch of talking heads talk about f***ing Brawl Out.
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mo
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Post by mo on May 1, 2024 16:41:57 GMT -5
If it’s a balanced and unbiased look at it I’ll be interested. If it’s another Vince McMahon is a genius and did everything right type of thing we’ve gotten already, then no thanks.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on May 1, 2024 18:40:43 GMT -5
And just to add with my point above, sure, you can absolutely make the case that whilst the end of 2000 to 2001 wasn't perfect, it felt like they were turning things around and people were being built and Nitro and Thunder could have kept on but under Bischoff and his consortium's ownership...what was the reason to take the risk? What was chance 1001 going to do that the first 1000 chances didn't try before? There were no more rolls of the dice, no more disgruntled WWF creative people to go after unless they wanted to deal with Bill Watts again and they couldn't even do the nWo again because they literally just did the nWo again! The wider point is goddamn I'm not looking forward to the same arguments trotted out over and over again about WCW and what happened 23 years after it died. I'd rather have my eyes forced opened and a bunch of talking heads talk about f***ing Brawl Out. Also we basically had multiple attempts of what WCW would have looked like if it continued, between TNA, XWF, and like a dozen other feds that went nowhere...
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Cranjis McBasketball
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on May 1, 2024 19:06:38 GMT -5
And just to add with my point above, sure, you can absolutely make the case that whilst the end of 2000 to 2001 wasn't perfect, it felt like they were turning things around and people were being built and Nitro and Thunder could have kept on but under Bischoff and his consortium's ownership...what was the reason to take the risk? What was chance 1001 going to do that the first 1000 chances didn't try before? There were no more rolls of the dice, no more disgruntled WWF creative people to go after unless they wanted to deal with Bill Watts again and they couldn't even do the nWo again because they literally just did the nWo again! The wider point is goddamn I'm not looking forward to the same arguments trotted out over and over again about WCW and what happened 23 years after it died. I'd rather have my eyes forced opened and a bunch of talking heads talk about f***ing Brawl Out. Bischoff had two good ideas. Stopping house shows that they were losing their ass on, which frankly, someone should have had way before and someone would have had eventually and the beginnings of the nWo. And no matter how much you hate him, no matter the spin, they lost because it wasn’t Eric’s money, and all of WWF was Vince’s money and that is the difference. ATM Eric didn’t come from smarks or Dave, it came from Hogan, Nash, Hall…guys who knew what Vince paid and what Eric was offering. Even Jericho who hadn’t even broken in the US yet says he got paid way more than he asked for and it was easy for Eric to do because it wasn’t his money. Foley started in WWF in or around the same time Jericho started WCW. Foley got a deal for $1500 a year, not a typo!!! Jericho was getting $300K.
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chrom
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Post by chrom on May 1, 2024 19:43:27 GMT -5
And just to add with my point above, sure, you can absolutely make the case that whilst the end of 2000 to 2001 wasn't perfect, it felt like they were turning things around and people were being built and Nitro and Thunder could have kept on but under Bischoff and his consortium's ownership...what was the reason to take the risk? What was chance 1001 going to do that the first 1000 chances didn't try before? There were no more rolls of the dice, no more disgruntled WWF creative people to go after unless they wanted to deal with Bill Watts again and they couldn't even do the nWo again because they literally just did the nWo again! The wider point is goddamn I'm not looking forward to the same arguments trotted out over and over again about WCW and what happened 23 years after it died. I'd rather have my eyes forced opened and a bunch of talking heads talk about f***ing Brawl Out. Bischoff had two good ideas. Stopping house shows that they were losing their ass on, which frankly, someone should have had way before and someone would have had eventually and the beginnings of the nWo. And no matter how much you hate him, no matter the spin, they lost because it wasn’t Eric’s money, and all of WWF was Vince’s money and that is the difference. ATM Eric didn’t come from smarks or Dave, it came from Hogan, Nash, Hall…guys who knew what Vince paid and what Eric was offering. Even Jericho who hadn’t even broken in the US yet says he got paid way more than he asked for and it was easy for Eric to do because it wasn’t his money. Foley started in WWF in or around the same time Jericho started WCW. Foley got a deal for $1500 a year, not a typo!!! Jericho was getting $300K. 1500 a year? Jobbers like Sandy Beach got paid more in a month getting squashed than that.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on May 1, 2024 19:49:42 GMT -5
And just to add with my point above, sure, you can absolutely make the case that whilst the end of 2000 to 2001 wasn't perfect, it felt like they were turning things around and people were being built and Nitro and Thunder could have kept on but under Bischoff and his consortium's ownership...what was the reason to take the risk? What was chance 1001 going to do that the first 1000 chances didn't try before? There were no more rolls of the dice, no more disgruntled WWF creative people to go after unless they wanted to deal with Bill Watts again and they couldn't even do the nWo again because they literally just did the nWo again! The wider point is goddamn I'm not looking forward to the same arguments trotted out over and over again about WCW and what happened 23 years after it died. I'd rather have my eyes forced opened and a bunch of talking heads talk about f***ing Brawl Out. Bischoff had two good ideas. Stopping house shows that they were losing their ass on, which frankly, someone should have had way before and someone would have had eventually and the beginnings of the nWo. And no matter how much you hate him, no matter the spin, they lost because it wasn’t Eric’s money, and all of WWF was Vince’s money and that is the difference. ATM Eric didn’t come from smarks or Dave, it came from Hogan, Nash, Hall…guys who knew what Vince paid and what Eric was offering. Even Jericho who hadn’t even broken in the US yet says he got paid way more than he asked for and it was easy for Eric to do because it wasn’t his money. Foley started in WWF in or around the same time Jericho started WCW. Foley got a deal for $1500 a year, not a typo!!! Jericho was getting $300K. Yeah, I always said Bischoff's always had 2 ideas every place he goes.. LETS DO THE NWO AGAIN! as well as sign as many people as possible, and pay them with other people's money.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on May 1, 2024 20:16:54 GMT -5
And just to add with my point above, sure, you can absolutely make the case that whilst the end of 2000 to 2001 wasn't perfect, it felt like they were turning things around and people were being built and Nitro and Thunder could have kept on but under Bischoff and his consortium's ownership...what was the reason to take the risk? What was chance 1001 going to do that the first 1000 chances didn't try before? There were no more rolls of the dice, no more disgruntled WWF creative people to go after unless they wanted to deal with Bill Watts again and they couldn't even do the nWo again because they literally just did the nWo again! The wider point is goddamn I'm not looking forward to the same arguments trotted out over and over again about WCW and what happened 23 years after it died. I'd rather have my eyes forced opened and a bunch of talking heads talk about f***ing Brawl Out. Bischoff had two good ideas. Stopping house shows that they were losing their ass on, which frankly, someone should have had way before and someone would have had eventually and the beginnings of the nWo. And no matter how much you hate him, no matter the spin, they lost because it wasn’t Eric’s money, and all of WWF was Vince’s money and that is the difference. ATM Eric didn’t come from smarks or Dave, it came from Hogan, Nash, Hall…guys who knew what Vince paid and what Eric was offering. Even Jericho who hadn’t even broken in the US yet says he got paid way more than he asked for and it was easy for Eric to do because it wasn’t his money. Foley started in WWF in or around the same time Jericho started WCW. Foley got a deal for $1500 a year, not a typo!!! Jericho was getting $300K. Oh yeah, the house show thing was an issue that'd been an issue for years and years, and Eric was right to pull the plug. The issue was that WCW could not convince people to go because their cards never worked out as promised, because big names would simply ask to not be booked on them or didn't bother showing up. Hell, most of the midcard were not interested, since there was no money in them. It was a vicious cycle. It wasn't like Smoky Mountain Wrestling, where Cornette ran some shows he knew he'd only really break even on because he wanted to keep his roster paid consistently and getting reps in. That's not really something that WCW guys benefited from due to guaranteed contracts, so the house show is only as lucrative as its gates, which were dog shit because even WCW diehards knew they were a waste of your money to buy tickets to.
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Cranjis McBasketball
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on May 1, 2024 20:20:14 GMT -5
Bischoff had two good ideas. Stopping house shows that they were losing their ass on, which frankly, someone should have had way before and someone would have had eventually and the beginnings of the nWo. And no matter how much you hate him, no matter the spin, they lost because it wasn’t Eric’s money, and all of WWF was Vince’s money and that is the difference. ATM Eric didn’t come from smarks or Dave, it came from Hogan, Nash, Hall…guys who knew what Vince paid and what Eric was offering. Even Jericho who hadn’t even broken in the US yet says he got paid way more than he asked for and it was easy for Eric to do because it wasn’t his money. Foley started in WWF in or around the same time Jericho started WCW. Foley got a deal for $1500 a year, not a typo!!! Jericho was getting $300K. 1500 a year? Jobbers like Sandy Beach got paid more in a month getting squashed than that. It was something like 6 matches at $250 a shot. That was his guarantee. Obviously, he could and would make, much, much more, but that was his deal.
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cjh
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Post by cjh on May 1, 2024 20:29:26 GMT -5
Bischoff had two good ideas. Stopping house shows that they were losing their ass on, which frankly, someone should have had way before and someone would have had eventually and the beginnings of the nWo. And no matter how much you hate him, no matter the spin, they lost because it wasn’t Eric’s money, and all of WWF was Vince’s money and that is the difference. ATM Eric didn’t come from smarks or Dave, it came from Hogan, Nash, Hall…guys who knew what Vince paid and what Eric was offering. Even Jericho who hadn’t even broken in the US yet says he got paid way more than he asked for and it was easy for Eric to do because it wasn’t his money. Foley started in WWF in or around the same time Jericho started WCW. Foley got a deal for $1500 a year, not a typo!!! Jericho was getting $300K. 1500 a year? Jobbers like Sandy Beach got paid more in a month getting squashed than that. That was the bare minimum pay. WWE contracts at the time Foley signed said the company would book you a minimum of 10 times per year for at least $150 a show. Obviously, contracted wrestlers made way more than that, but that's all they were promised. Foley was the final guy signed to that type of contract. Starting with Marc Mero and Brian Pillman, WWE introduced the "downside guarantee" contracts that became the norm for over 20 years. Today, WWE wrestlers make flat salaries for wrestling, plus a percentage of the money their merchandise generates.
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