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Post by Paul Servo on Dec 27, 2007 6:52:07 GMT -5
You may take issue with the "it was fun" defense, but how else can someone explain why they liked a film like this? I think the point rra was making (correct me if I'm wrong) is that people stop at "it's fun" and he sees that as a cop out, at least I do. Why is TRANSFORMERS fun? I don't think the people who think it's fun are evaluating it by its own terms, I think the nostalgia factor is high. That, and some people are easily enthralled by giant shiny robots fighting. So enthralled they forget about the wacky camera, the annoying orange tint, the lame sophomoric jokes, and the Michael Bay Plot Holes™. I agree, the point of movies, and any other media, is entertainment. And different people have different standards by which they are entertained. "Fun" is subjective. But we can still better understand what is fun to ourselves and others. Perhaps we can change our own standards. I agree "fun" is subjective. I found TRANSFORMERS "fun" because I wasn't bored. I didn't feel that I wasted money on it. To me, when a person says a film was "fun," I interpret that as "They weren't bored during it" The "wacky" camera angles could have been used to make the F/X easier to do And as for "some people (being) easily enthralled by giant shiny robots fighting," just to play Devil's Advocate, why would one see TRANSFORMERS if they weren't interested in seeign that sort of thing?
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Post by Jason Todd Grisham on Dec 27, 2007 6:58:33 GMT -5
I think the point rra was making (correct me if I'm wrong) is that people stop at "it's fun" and he sees that as a cop out, at least I do. Why is TRANSFORMERS fun? I don't think the people who think it's fun are evaluating it by its own terms, I think the nostalgia factor is high. That, and some people are easily enthralled by giant shiny robots fighting. So enthralled they forget about the wacky camera, the annoying orange tint, the lame sophomoric jokes, and the Michael Bay Plot Holes™. I agree, the point of movies, and any other media, is entertainment. And different people have different standards by which they are entertained. "Fun" is subjective. But we can still better understand what is fun to ourselves and others. Perhaps we can change our own standards. I agree "fun" is subjective. I found TRANSFORMERS "fun" because I wasn't bored. I didn't feel that I wasted money on it. To me, when a person says a film was "fun," I interpret that as "They weren't bored during it" The "wacky" camera angles could have been used to make the F/X easier to do And as for "some people (being) easily enthralled by giant shiny robots fighting," just to play Devil's Advocate, why would one see TRANSFORMERS if they weren't interested in seeign that sort of thing? It wasn't the wacky camera angles, it was the wacky camera flying all about which way making me dizzy. And to respond to your Devil's Advocatecy I suppose my statement should be amended to "easily amused by giant shiny robots." I couldn't tell the difference between them when they transformed and by the time they actually fought I didn't really care. I can't finger what Bay did wrong. Maybe it was absolute sensory overload? Maybe after going through poorly acted romance scenes for so long I just didn't care anymore? I don't know. To say that it was fun because you weren't bored is really just another way of saying it was fun. All you are doing is defining the sensation you experienced in another way. The point isn't to say you had a certain sensation, clearly you must have had it in order to enjoy the movie. What's more important is what in the movie made you not bored? What did it accomplish?
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hollywood
King Koopa
the bullet dodger
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Post by hollywood on Dec 27, 2007 9:05:39 GMT -5
I'm a bit late, but I just feel the need to disagree with the handful of comments that American Gangster s***s on Transformers. It's not true.
American Gangster walks right up to Transformers in the middle of the streets in broad daylight and blows Transformers goddamn head off.
That's really all I have to add to this debate.
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Post by Failure & Onions on Dec 27, 2007 10:14:41 GMT -5
It was fun.
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rra
King Koopa
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Post by rra on Dec 27, 2007 11:14:50 GMT -5
But aren't films such as TRANSFORMERS supposed to just be a fun film to watch? If it was entertaining and good, yes. But its like popcorn. TRANSFORMERS to me is stale, with the hint that one of the ushers may have pissed in it, while BOURNE ULTIMATUM is fresh popcorn, WAR is fatty buttered-up corn, you name it. how else can someone explain why they liked a film like this? I tried to explain why I liked LAST STARFIGHTER and TEMPLE OF DOOM, two purely-entertainment-minded pictures produced in the mid-1980s, and why I didn't enjoy NATIONAL TREASURE. I didn't go into watching it expecting CITIZEN KANE. I was expecting ROBOT JOX, another great American movie classic , but its not even that! I mean, at least JOX knew what it was, and it worked for what it is.
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rra
King Koopa
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Post by rra on Dec 27, 2007 11:17:06 GMT -5
I'm a bit late, but I just feel the need to disagree with the handful of comments that American Gangster s***s on Transformers. It's not true. American Gangster walks right up to Transformers in the middle of the streets in broad daylight and blows Transformers goddamn head off. That's really all I have to add to this debate. And there were no witnesses, with the pedestrians either conveniently had their heads turned or had sudden amnesia.
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hollywood
King Koopa
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Post by hollywood on Dec 27, 2007 11:23:01 GMT -5
My answer to the "it was fun" argument is that so many times it wasn't fun for me, it was just stupid. Like every scene with our young lovers/heroes, were honestly painful and awkward to watch. The scenes with Prime and Co. stomping around the backyard attempting to "hide," were just mind-numbingly stupid (unless the kid's parents were both deaf and EXTREMELY near-sighted, and I just missed that part). Not to mention the fact that the robots were so complex-looking, I honestly couldn't tell if we were looking at their faces or their asses. Like I've said, Prime made it tolerable, which is the most I can say for any Bay movie in existence. His lines, delivered by anyone else would be pure cheese, but he made them nearly awe-inspiring. That's really saying a lot for both the character and the voice actor. However, even Prime couldn't make me want to see this cinematic suppository a second time. I'm all for a film that's fun even despite it's stupidity, but this just wasn't it. I'd take an Ed Wood film over Michael Bay any day of the week. I'm a bit late, but I just feel the need to disagree with the handful of comments that American Gangster s***s on Transformers. It's not true. American Gangster walks right up to Transformers in the middle of the streets in broad daylight and blows Transformers goddamn head off. That's really all I have to add to this debate. And there were no witnesses, with the pedestrians either conveniently had their heads turned or had sudden amnesia. Oh, everyone saw it. Everyone. But that all knew...you do NOT f*** with Frank Lucas. Ever.
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Chainsaw
T
A very BAD man.
It is what it is
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Post by Chainsaw on Dec 27, 2007 11:24:07 GMT -5
Well I just got done watching the DVD of it I had for christmas. I have to say it is the best movie of 2007 by FAR. Easily in my top 5 of all time. Wow. That's all I'll say.
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Jiren
Patti Mayonnaise
Hearts Bayformers
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Post by Jiren on Dec 27, 2007 11:27:50 GMT -5
But aren't films such as TRANSFORMERS supposed to just be a fun film to watch? If it was entertaining and good, yes. But its like popcorn. TRANSFORMERS to me is stale, with the hint that one of the ushers may have pissed in it, while BOURNE ULTIMATUM is fresh popcorn, WAR is fatty buttered-up corn, you name it. I tried to explain why I liked LAST STARFIGHTER and TEMPLE OF DOOM, two purely-entertainment-minded pictures produced in the mid-1980s, and why I didn't enjoy NATIONAL TREASURE. I didn't go into watching it expecting CITIZEN KANE. I was expecting ROBOT JOX, another great American movie classic , but its not even that! I mean, at least JOX knew what it was, and it worked for what it is. Robot Jox was killer I can enjoy "fun" movies but for me Bayformers wasn't fun, alot of things angered me (same with 4:ROTSS) too much.
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rra
King Koopa
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Post by rra on Dec 27, 2007 11:31:49 GMT -5
You may take issue with the "it was fun" defense, but how else can someone explain why they liked a film like this? I think the point rra was making (correct me if I'm wrong) is that people stop at "it's fun" and he sees that as a cop out, at least I do. Why is TRANSFORMERS fun? I don't think the people who think it's fun are evaluating it by its own terms, I think the nostalgia factor is high. That, and some people are easily enthralled by giant shiny robots fighting. So enthralled they forget about the wacky camera, the annoying orange tint, the lame sophomoric jokes, and the Michael Bay Plot Holes™. I agree, the point of movies, and any other media, is entertainment. And different people have different standards by which they are entertained. "Fun" is subjective. But we can still better understand what is fun to ourselves and others. Perhaps we can change our own standards. THANK YOU man, you write exactly how I feel.
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Libertine
Unicron
Cerebral Caustic
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Post by Libertine on Dec 27, 2007 11:35:06 GMT -5
Why are the film names always in caps?
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rra
King Koopa
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Post by rra on Dec 27, 2007 11:41:13 GMT -5
Why are the film names always in caps? The question shouldn't be "why?" but...why not? Besides, would you rather I underline titles rather than bold, or how about italics?I use caps because it seperates the film/music album/TV show from the rest of the paragraph. The problem is when using too many caps in one sentence, it becomes chaotic.
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Post by Mr. Emoticon Man, TF Fan on Dec 27, 2007 11:47:04 GMT -5
Actually, that would be enough for me. If you disliked me, hated me, or anything like that, I'd respect your decision to not like me. I might be curious as to why, but it wouldn't bother me any. After all, what you like and dislike is completely up to you, and neither myself nor anyone else has a right to harp at you for it or expect some great reasoning for why you dislike what you dislike. People have different tastes in movies same as with everything else. Not a single movie you mentioned interests me in the slightest. I'm fairly sure that if I saw the Bourne Ultimatum, it'd bore me just as much as the first one did. Does that mean you saying that you liked it isn't enough to justify your stance on it? No. I'm not going to rag on you about how your arguement for it being good doesn't stand up or that you just haven't seen enough movies (not that you've done that last one, but others have) simply because I don't like it. Rather, I accept that you like it and leave it at that. And I don't think you're calling me or anyone else stupid, but I also think the comment you made on how our "arguements" for the film don't stand up is a bit pretentious. A movie is meant to entertain, and if it was entertaining to someone, that's all there is to it; I fail to see how someone can be wrong about a movie entertaining them, expecially when they're speaking of their own tastes. I also fail to see how anyone needs more than this to "stand tall" about their liking for the film. And I'm no more emotional about this than you are (or, well, I'm assuming you aren't emotional about this; if you are, I apologize for the assumption); I'm simply pointing out that all someone has to say to defend their liking of a movie is that they liked it. No one needs to write up a review to validate their opinion, or come up with some deep-seeded answer for why they think one movie is better than another in order for their reasoning to be approvable. It all boils down to personal preference. And while anyone is free to ask about why someone likes or dislikes something, to make light of their reasons for no other reason than that you disagree is a tad bit rude. "It was fun" may not seem like enough of a reason to like a movie for you, but it's obviously enough of a reason for others, and it's more than what anyone has to say on the subject. My point is, something like this... ...just sounds a bit pretentious. No one needs to stand tall to like something, and no one needs more than "it's fun" to stand tall in liking a movie of all things. There's a bit of a difference between asking why someone likes something and belittling someone's reasons for liking something. Was I actually belittling you? My point was, nobody was making a good worthwhile argument, in defense pro quo this side of a worthy defense, why they dig this stuff. Now take that NATIONAL TREASURE review I posted days back. Someone at another message board replied with this whole argument that's rather interesting. He wrote that he agreed with me that NT was pretty damn silly, but he enjoyed it still. Why? Because to him, he enjoyed it much like many of those PG-rated kiddie-safe adventure fare from the 80s of say GOONIES or even INDIANA JONES & THE TEMPLE OF DOOM, where the action takes place in impractically-giant temples/ancient buildings and the thrills of going after a treasure of some kid. I don't buy the argument, but it makes sense. I mean, I wrote how I enjoyed LAST STARFIGHTER partly because it was a nice nostalgic throwback to the Arcade Era. What's me to say that this fan of NATIONAL TREASURE was wrong? Much like a Crapper (who I won't name because it was PM) who had a great counter-argument against my chief problem with NATURAL BORN KILLERS. I wrote how Stone's scene with the dead Indian was an unnecessary trick to try to make his homicidal maniac heroes sympathetic to the audience, how it even conflicts with said heroes' vow of murder-abstinence. He writes, "but in that prison riot, death is everywhere, its their environment, and for once they're killing for a good reason: to save their own asses." I still stick to my opinion, but that's a damn good point he has. Hell, he almost made me reverse course. Fact is dude, I don't want a fight or prove how goddamn smarter I am or right* or whatever you think I am trying to do. I simply want a good film-buff debate, hopefully fun and non-confrontational. That's it. *=Critics, like you and me, think we're right. We can respect everyone else's opinion, but this is the kitchen. You can burned very easily if you can't back up YOUR opinion. You backed up your opinion, which is good. Me? No, because I actually have more reasons for liking Transformers than the simple "it was fun" arguement; in fact, one of the biggest gripes people seem to have with it (the excessive human involvement) is one of the reasons I enjoyed it and thought it was good. I can also name numerous scenes and lines that I thought were really cool or well done which add to why I think the movie is good. So, did I think you were belittling me? No, because I'm not one of the people that can't move beyond the "it was fun" defense. But you seemed to be belittling anyone who couldn't say more than that it was a fun movie, and since this isn't actually a debate, I saw that as a bit rude. If this was a thread asking about what the best movie in 2007 was, a debate would be expected. But when it's a few people posting in a pro-Transformers thread, showing up just to rag on them for their reasons seems a bit unnecessary. Movies aren't all that important to a lot of people; we want to laugh and joke with each other about our favorite film without someone standing over our shoulder nit-picking about what we like or don't like and why. I've seen threads dedicated towards deciding the worst movie of the year, so if someone wanted to debate on Transformers being a good or bad movie they would show up there and do so. But a thread created for the sole purpose of expressing admiration for a single movie isn't really the ideal area for an intelligent debate on it's merits. And I'm no critic or film-buff; I can count on one hand the number of movies I've seen at the theater in the past 10 years, and most of the movies I do see are the ones that are on tv so often that it's hard to avoid them. So I have little doubt that you're smarter than me in the realm of movies. But I still think your comment on people's reasons for defending the film was rude and uncalled for, particularly in a thread not tailer-made for a debate. And there is no right or wrong here; you think the movie is bad and I think the movie is good, and both opinions are just as valid and just as right. And if all you want is a good, fun, and non-confrontational debate... how about simply asking why people liked the movie? That's way more likely to ignite a friendly debate than starting it off by making what comes off as a derisive comment on the most popular reason given for liking a movie.
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rra
King Koopa
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Post by rra on Dec 27, 2007 11:52:15 GMT -5
Was I actually belittling you? My point was, nobody was making a good worthwhile argument, in defense pro quo this side of a worthy defense, why they dig this stuff. Now take that NATIONAL TREASURE review I posted days back. Someone at another message board replied with this whole argument that's rather interesting. He wrote that he agreed with me that NT was pretty damn silly, but he enjoyed it still. Why? Because to him, he enjoyed it much like many of those PG-rated kiddie-safe adventure fare from the 80s of say GOONIES or even INDIANA JONES & THE TEMPLE OF DOOM, where the action takes place in impractically-giant temples/ancient buildings and the thrills of going after a treasure of some kid. I don't buy the argument, but it makes sense. I mean, I wrote how I enjoyed LAST STARFIGHTER partly because it was a nice nostalgic throwback to the Arcade Era. What's me to say that this fan of NATIONAL TREASURE was wrong? Much like a Crapper (who I won't name because it was PM) who had a great counter-argument against my chief problem with NATURAL BORN KILLERS. I wrote how Stone's scene with the dead Indian was an unnecessary trick to try to make his homicidal maniac heroes sympathetic to the audience, how it even conflicts with said heroes' vow of murder-abstinence. He writes, "but in that prison riot, death is everywhere, its their environment, and for once they're killing for a good reason: to save their own asses." I still stick to my opinion, but that's a damn good point he has. Hell, he almost made me reverse course. Fact is dude, I don't want a fight or prove how goddamn smarter I am or right* or whatever you think I am trying to do. I simply want a good film-buff debate, hopefully fun and non-confrontational. That's it. *=Critics, like you and me, think we're right. We can respect everyone else's opinion, but this is the kitchen. You can burned very easily if you can't back up YOUR opinion. You backed up your opinion, which is good. Me? No, because I actually have more reasons for liking Transformers than the simple "it was fun" arguement; in fact, one of the biggest gripes people seem to have with it (the excessive human involvement) is one of the reasons I enjoyed it and thought it was good. I can also name numerous scenes and lines that I thought were really cool or well done which add to why I think the movie is good. So, did I think you were belittling me? No, because I'm not one of the people that can't move beyond the "it was fun" defense. But you seemed to be belittling anyone who couldn't say more than that it was a fun movie, and since this isn't actually a debate, I saw that as a bit rude. If this was a thread asking about what the best movie in 2007 was, a debate would be expected. But when it's a few people posting in a pro-Transformers thread, showing up just to rag on them for their reasons seems a bit unnecessary. Movies aren't all that important to a lot of people; we want to laugh and joke with each other about our favorite film without someone standing over our shoulder nit-picking about what we like or don't like and why. I've seen threads dedicated towards deciding the worst movie of the year, so if someone wanted to debate on Transformers being a good or bad movie they would show up there and do so. But a thread created for the sole purpose of expressing admiration for a single movie isn't really the ideal area for an intelligent debate on it's merits. And I'm no critic or film-buff; I can count on one hand the number of movies I've seen at the theater in the past 10 years, and most of the movies I do see are the ones that are on tv so often that it's hard to avoid them. So I have little doubt that you're smarter than me in the realm of movies. But I still think your comment on people's reasons for defending the film was rude and uncalled for, particularly in a thread not tailer-made for a debate. And there is no right or wrong here; you think the movie is bad and I think the movie is good, and both opinions are just as valid and just as right. And if all you want is a good, fun, and non-confrontational debate... how about simply asking why people liked the movie? That's way more likely to ignite a friendly debate than starting it off by making what comes off as a derisive comment on the most popular reason given for liking a movie. My statement was supposed to be a question, an open challenge this of Pro Wrestling, for someone to come up to the plate and answer my question, to knock my ass down, and take the title strap. BTW, you ever heard of paragraph breaks? I use it in my reviews, since I rationalize that people don't read non-broken paragraphs longer than 6-7 lines. They tend to actually read ALL of the words I put down.
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Post by krill on Dec 27, 2007 11:54:41 GMT -5
Pro's I liked the girl, she was hot The transforming noise made me smile I liked the explosions I like the car chases I liked Starscream shooting down the American airforce I liked The decepticon who turned into a tank Cons I am gutted RC wasnt in the film I thought they Jazz/homie thing was a bit stereotypical It was too short I dont know much about art, but I DO know what I like. P.S : Bad Boys 2 rocked also.
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rra
King Koopa
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Post by rra on Dec 27, 2007 12:03:34 GMT -5
Pro's I liked the girl, she was hot The transforming noise made me smile I liked the explosions I like the car chases I liked Starscream shooting down the American airforce I liked The decepticon who turned into a tank Cons I am gutted RC wasnt in the film I thought they Jazz/homie thing was a bit stereotypical It was too short I dont know much about art, but I DO know what I like. P.S : Bad Boys 2 rocked also. See, that's fair enough reasoning. As for BAD BOYS 2....you agree that it shouldn't have been as long as the 150 something minutes as it was? BTW, anyone tired in general of blockbuster movies that cut out alot of material just to simply dump into the sequel? Broadly, I'm tiring of that practice, unless its brilliantly done.
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Post by krill on Dec 27, 2007 12:19:38 GMT -5
bad boys 2 was slightly long, but I think it was all necessary to the plot. As in I cant find any "filler" bits.
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Post by Mr. Emoticon Man, TF Fan on Dec 27, 2007 12:24:25 GMT -5
Me? No, because I actually have more reasons for liking Transformers than the simple "it was fun" arguement; in fact, one of the biggest gripes people seem to have with it (the excessive human involvement) is one of the reasons I enjoyed it and thought it was good. I can also name numerous scenes and lines that I thought were really cool or well done which add to why I think the movie is good. So, did I think you were belittling me? No, because I'm not one of the people that can't move beyond the "it was fun" defense. But you seemed to be belittling anyone who couldn't say more than that it was a fun movie, and since this isn't actually a debate, I saw that as a bit rude. If this was a thread asking about what the best movie in 2007 was, a debate would be expected. But when it's a few people posting in a pro-Transformers thread, showing up just to rag on them for their reasons seems a bit unnecessary. Movies aren't all that important to a lot of people; we want to laugh and joke with each other about our favorite film without someone standing over our shoulder nit-picking about what we like or don't like and why. I've seen threads dedicated towards deciding the worst movie of the year, so if someone wanted to debate on Transformers being a good or bad movie they would show up there and do so. But a thread created for the sole purpose of expressing admiration for a single movie isn't really the ideal area for an intelligent debate on it's merits. And I'm no critic or film-buff; I can count on one hand the number of movies I've seen at the theater in the past 10 years, and most of the movies I do see are the ones that are on tv so often that it's hard to avoid them. So I have little doubt that you're smarter than me in the realm of movies. But I still think your comment on people's reasons for defending the film was rude and uncalled for, particularly in a thread not tailer-made for a debate. And there is no right or wrong here; you think the movie is bad and I think the movie is good, and both opinions are just as valid and just as right. And if all you want is a good, fun, and non-confrontational debate... how about simply asking why people liked the movie? That's way more likely to ignite a friendly debate than starting it off by making what comes off as a derisive comment on the most popular reason given for liking a movie. My statement was supposed to be a question, an open challenge this of Pro Wrestling, for someone to come up to the plate and answer my question, to knock my ass down, and take the title strap. BTW, you ever heard of ? I use it in my reviews, since I rationalize that people don't read non-broken paragraphs longer than 6-7 lines. They tend to actually read ALL of the words I put down. Movies aren't that serious a subject matter to most people, though. It may be important to you to feel right in your decision to dislike the movie, but I'm willing to bet that the masses are just interested in either liking it or disliking it. It's like religion; do you go to your church to worship your god(s) or to have people confront you on why you like your god(s)? Like I've said before, there are threads here made for debating; this doesn't seem like one of them. And which were you interested in, a challenge or a non-confrontational debate? A challenge implies a confrontation of some kind, but you've already stated that you just wanted a non-confrontational debate. And if your challenge is specifically to see reasons other than "it was fun", you could have easily achieved the same result by asking for reasons and then asking for more reasons if the only answer you get is "it was fun". Yeah, I've heard of that, but I tend to not use it, particularly when my paragraphs aren't overly long by my standards. Whether I use a lot of spaces or not, the number of words I use will be the same, so I don't see a point in doing so since the same amount of reading will be involved.
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rra
King Koopa
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Post by rra on Dec 27, 2007 12:25:07 GMT -5
bad boys 2 was slightly long, but I think it was all necessary to the plot. As in I cant find any "filler" bits. I think alot of scenes could have been axed, and not deter the narrative. The Lawrence-ectasy scenes aren't funny, they drag, AXED. The first shot of Will Smith seeing that phrase he later says to Lawrence. The two scenes at the electronics store. The sex video being played out over the store is a decent laugh, but afterwards with the gay innuendo.....no so. The first segment only should have been kept. I remembered counting maybe 20 or so minutes AT LEAST that could have been deleted, without the audience missing them, and guess what? The so-called action movie wouldn't have sagged at dead spots like it did.
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Post by Mr. Emoticon Man, TF Fan on Dec 27, 2007 12:27:07 GMT -5
Pro's I liked the girl, she was hot The transforming noise made me smile I liked the explosions I like the car chases I liked Starscream shooting down the American airforce I liked The decepticon who turned into a tank Cons I am gutted RC wasnt in the film I thought they Jazz/homie thing was a bit stereotypical It was too short I dont know much about art, but I DO know what I like. P.S : Bad Boys 2 rocked also. And speaking of Jazz... am I the only one who thought it was a bit fitting that he would be the one to die, considering Prime, Ratchet, and Ironhide all died in the old cartoon movie?
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