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Post by kitsunestar on Jan 2, 2007 22:51:42 GMT -5
*waits for this to just devolve into "Anyone who can't cut it in RoH is trash"* Well that's random. It was more a response to a previous post saying something along the lines of caring more about someone being a good worker than if they're a good heel or not... I don't feel like cancelling out this post to go look for it at the moment, and re-typing it, though.
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salTy
El Dandy
Posts: 8,425
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Post by salTy on Jan 2, 2007 23:07:40 GMT -5
Randy and Nitro would be good heels if people actually cared about them. They suck because they're boring.
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Disco Inferno
Trap-Jaw
I'll dance all over your ass!!!!!!
Posts: 416
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Post by Disco Inferno on Jan 2, 2007 23:15:23 GMT -5
I was going to agree with you, but since you are being so rude all I have to say to you is good day sir.
I believe I said good day.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jan 2, 2007 23:17:16 GMT -5
Can't agree here; Danielson actually played a perfect heel in many, many matches during his title reign (specifically in his matches against Delirious), but one huge aspect of his character during his reign was "He doesn't want to fit into any pre-conceived mold", i.e. he wasn't going to wrestle any particular style to appease or to appeal to anyone, he wasn't going to be a traditional face/heel, etc.
As for the "Devolve into a 'Can't cut it in ROH'" comment...well, considering the caliber of many of the heels in ROH, it's not a bad observation.
Frankly, I think many WWE heels are hampered by writers who wouldn't know how to present a truly dislikable wrestling heel if their lives depended on it.
Heels can fall into any number of categories: sneaky, scheming heels, arrogant ones, badass ones, etc. The issue is presentation; you need to completely convince me that you're this character you're playing, and you need to do more than just attacking a face with a chair now and then to really get me to hate you.
A heel needs good motivation, and a good heel also needs to be original, when possible.
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Post by -Lithium- on Jan 2, 2007 23:19:05 GMT -5
I mean seriously, they are supposed to be annoying. Yes, that includes Johnny Nitro and Melina. It even includes Randy Orton. Too many people here go on about how über smarkish they are, then go on about how they can't stand their attitudes and style. Fair enough if you don't like their performances, but saying a heel sucks because you find their character annoying is just retarded. Randy Orton would be a bad heel if he came across as likeable and friendly. But he's a good heel because he comes across as a total cock. Everyone agree? Good. Psst, you really didnt shut everyone up and change peoples opinions. Just wanted to let you know that... And now your gonna come back with some response that starts off with "Pssst..." and think you like one uped me or something...
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Post by leemir on Jan 2, 2007 23:24:43 GMT -5
A good heel needs a good face to make each other, it's hard to just be heel when you don't have anything to work with like back in 04 I hated Jimmy Rave in his feud with CM Punk but he hasn't had a feud like that since & I really like the guys now!
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Post by HMARK Center on Jan 2, 2007 23:27:09 GMT -5
It was more a response to a previous post saying something along the lines of caring more about someone being a good worker than if they're a good heel or not... I don't feel like cancelling out this post to go look for it at the moment, and re-typing it, though. I really don't want to take this off-topic, but considering that ROH's heel scene includes Adam Pearce, Larry Sweeney, and a growing multitude of guys who don't really wrestle a high-impact, "high workrate" style (not that I'd call it that, but some might), that whole distinction doesn't really work. I'd even argue that, at this point, ROH is more character-driven than WWE, whereas WWE is more gimmick-driven. To bring it back on topic, could part of the problem be that WWE has, in recent years, gotten people so used to big, bad, musclehead heels (from Snitsky, to Heidenreich, to Khali, etc.) that anyone who doesn't fit that mold just comes off as "annoying"? I can't comment that much, given my limited viewing, but it's a theory.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jan 2, 2007 23:27:43 GMT -5
A good heel needs a good face to make each other, it's hard to just be heel when you don't have anything to work with like back in 04 I hated Jimmy Rave in his feud with CM Punk but he hasn't had a feud like that since & I really like the guys now! Dude, Rave/Embassy vs. Generation Next. HUGE feud, huge heel heat for Jimmy.
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Ace Diamond
Patti Mayonnaise
Believes in Adrian Veidt, as Should We All.
mmm...flavor text
Posts: 36,043
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Post by Ace Diamond on Jan 2, 2007 23:28:28 GMT -5
Nitro's the perfect size to be a great flyer or a great technician, and I really don't see him as either, I see him as a brawler with a handful of side moves. And I've seen that before, all too many times, and that's why Nitro bores me in the ring. I want to like him, but I can't. I don't know I have to disagree as well. He kind of does it all as far as I'm concerned, between him, Shelton Benjamin and Carlito, it's Johnny Nitro who went out and had roughly a 20 minute match on Raw against Jeff Hardy, having spent the majority of that match working Hardy's legs, at a time where I feel it's been a long time since anyone's had a match of that style, it's not often anymore in WWE where there's any pinpointing of a specific body part. I think he's a lot better than anyone gives him credit for. I kind of agree. My only gripe with Nitro at this point was in the match at the Three Hour Raw, The Hardyz were selling the injuries of the match at Armageddon the whole way through, meanwhile Nitro's like "What ladder match? I feel perfectly fine!"
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Post by MGH on Jan 2, 2007 23:29:25 GMT -5
Even though I could care less about him, I'd argue that Jimmy Rave is one of the best heels in the business. He's good in the ring, but even the "smart" ROH fans boo him. There aren't random LETS GO JIMMY! dueling chants in his matches, they just want him to get his ass kicked.
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Post by leemir on Jan 2, 2007 23:33:08 GMT -5
A good heel needs a good face to make each other, it's hard to just be heel when you don't have anything to work with like back in 04 I hated Jimmy Rave in his feud with CM Punk but he hasn't had a feud like that since & I really like the guys now! Dude, Rave/Embassy vs. Generation Next. HUGE feud, huge heel heat for Jimmy. Yeah but I liked him then!
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Post by HMARK Center on Jan 2, 2007 23:45:42 GMT -5
Dude, Rave/Embassy vs. Generation Next. HUGE feud, huge heel heat for Jimmy. Yeah but I liked him then! Well, so did I, but I still loved booing him all the same. Eh, it's subjective, so I'm not blaming you or anything like that. I do also think there needs to be a distinction between how a crowd reacts to a guy when he enters, and how they react DURING his matches. For example, I'm sorry to keep bringing up ROH (it's the promotion I watch the most, so it's my easiest point of reference), Jimmy Jacobs gets cheers during his entrance for playing his heel character so well, but, once the bell rings, the crowd just turns on him completely, chanting things like telling his opponent to "@#$% HIM UP!" and what have you. Crowds can respect a heel while still booing them when it counts.
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nostradumbass
Tommy Wiseau
The only man to be booked in TNA and not look like a jackass
Posts: 89
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Post by nostradumbass on Jan 2, 2007 23:53:27 GMT -5
You're all marks.
:jerichoburn:
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Rocky Angle
Unicron
Robo-Vampire- best movie ever.
Posts: 2,522
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Post by Rocky Angle on Jan 3, 2007 11:51:58 GMT -5
Psst, you really didnt shut everyone up and change peoples opinions. Just wanted to let you know that... And now your gonna come back with some response that starts off with "Pssst..." and think you like one uped me or something... What? Did I miss something? I started this topic for discussion, did you think I was seriously suggesting I had changed everyone's mind?
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Post by willywonka666 on Jan 19, 2007 22:06:57 GMT -5
to me Rick Rude and Jesse Ventura were great cocky heels, edge and orton, just seem like jerks period
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Jan 19, 2007 22:09:28 GMT -5
You're a jerks period!
BURN!!!!1111 one one one one !!! 111 won won won !!!! 1
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salTy
El Dandy
Posts: 8,425
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Post by salTy on Jan 19, 2007 22:11:05 GMT -5
A good heel still has to be interesting. Neither boring or annoying = interesting. It's science.
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Post by MGH on Jan 19, 2007 22:11:48 GMT -5
You're a jerks period! BURN!!!!1111 one one one one !!! 111 won won won !!!! 1
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Sajoa Moe
Patti Mayonnaise
Did you get that thing I sent ya?
A man without gimmick.
Posts: 39,683
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Post by Sajoa Moe on Jan 19, 2007 22:17:11 GMT -5
JBL is probably my favorite heel of all time. I always looked forward to his post-PPV victory speeches.
"It is morning again in America!"
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Corporate H
Grimlock
He Buries Them Alive
Posts: 13,829
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Post by Corporate H on Jan 19, 2007 22:19:40 GMT -5
Probably because we're supposed to be annoyed? They're doing their jobs apparently.
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