"IcePic" Rick Cobos
Don Corleone
www.ericbischoff.com - some great comedy material!!!
Posts: 2,002
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Post by "IcePic" Rick Cobos on Jan 14, 2007 20:59:07 GMT -5
I completely agree with the original post. Perfect example, Babe Ruth hit his first ever professional home run right here in Fayetteville, NC when he played for the minor leagues. Does anyone know that? No. Does anyone care? No. They only care about the hundreds he hit and the legacy he left in the majors. Kurt Warner and Jake Delhomme were both good quarterbacks that won championships with their teams in NFL Europe, but no one knew about them or really cared about them until they hit our NFL. I give it to TNA, ROH, and other "minor" wrestling promotions out there that they can be much more entertaining. Having wrestled for a backyard fed myself, I can say that it is very, very fun. Though, no one knows about my "career" nor do they care about it. If a wrestler wants to become a huge star, make lots of money, and leave a lasting legacy in the wrestling world, then they HAVE to join the WWE at some point. It just won't happen anywhere else at this time. Also, if you, as a fan, really want to get completely lost in the entire spectacle that is professional wrestling, then you can't do any better than WWE live show. WWE does a great job of helping you get lost in the fantasy at their live shows. Whether WWE is better than other feds is all a matter of opinion, but on the whole, they really are the only fed, right now, that matters. I guess AAA, NOAH, and CMLL are non-existent then throughout the world of wrestling?
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hollywood
King Koopa
the bullet dodger
The Green Arrow has approved this post.
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Post by hollywood on Jan 14, 2007 21:08:05 GMT -5
I completely agree with the original post. Perfect example, Babe Ruth hit his first ever professional home run right here in Fayetteville, NC when he played for the minor leagues. Does anyone know that? No. Does anyone care? No. They only care about the hundreds he hit and the legacy he left in the majors. Kurt Warner and Jake Delhomme were both good quarterbacks that won championships with their teams in NFL Europe, but no one knew about them or really cared about them until they hit our NFL. I give it to TNA, ROH, and other "minor" wrestling promotions out there that they can be much more entertaining. Having wrestled for a backyard fed myself, I can say that it is very, very fun. Though, no one knows about my "career" nor do they care about it. If a wrestler wants to become a huge star, make lots of money, and leave a lasting legacy in the wrestling world, then they HAVE to join the WWE at some point. It just won't happen anywhere else at this time. Also, if you, as a fan, really want to get completely lost in the entire spectacle that is professional wrestling, then you can't do any better than WWE live show. WWE does a great job of helping you get lost in the fantasy at their live shows. Whether WWE is better than other feds is all a matter of opinion, but on the whole, they really are the only fed, right now, that matters. I guess AAA, NOAH, and CMLL are non-existent then throughout the world of wrestling? Beat me to it.
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"IcePic" Rick Cobos
Don Corleone
www.ericbischoff.com - some great comedy material!!!
Posts: 2,002
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Post by "IcePic" Rick Cobos on Jan 14, 2007 21:09:45 GMT -5
Yep, I mean, I guess El Santo, Kenta Kobashi, Mistico, Mitsuharu Misawa, and Rikidozan, among many others OUTSIDE of WWE, have never drawn a dime.
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Post by 'Sweet n' Sour' A. A. Estrada on Jan 14, 2007 21:12:27 GMT -5
I was going to make a rather lengthy post here, and then I thought - why bother?
I'll stick with my bush league promotions, thanks.
They're more fun to watch.
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Post by RandomHero on Jan 14, 2007 21:14:12 GMT -5
Speaking in broad, mainstream terms, then yes, right now WWE is all that matters. How any actual wrestling fan can consider WWE the best product available however is beyond me.
WWE is to wrestling as the Top 40 is to music. Sure it's the best promoted and has the highest production values, but it's also cheap, easy, and dumbed down to appeal to the lowest common denominator. If that's all you look for in your art (and wrestling most definatly is an art) then yeah, I guess WWE is all that matters. Some people have higher standards though.
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hollywood
King Koopa
the bullet dodger
The Green Arrow has approved this post.
Posts: 11,122
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Post by hollywood on Jan 14, 2007 21:19:29 GMT -5
Yep, I mean, I guess El Santo, Kenta Kobashi, Mistico, Mitsuharu Misawa, and Rikidozan, among many others OUTSIDE of WWE, have never drawn a dime. I was going to make a rather lengthy post here, and then I thought - why bother? I'll stick with my bush league promotions, thanks. They're more fun to watch. These both deserve to be quoted for truth.
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"IcePic" Rick Cobos
Don Corleone
www.ericbischoff.com - some great comedy material!!!
Posts: 2,002
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Post by "IcePic" Rick Cobos on Jan 14, 2007 21:20:59 GMT -5
Speaking in broad, mainstream terms, then yes, right now WWE is all that matters. How any actual wrestling fan can consider WWE the best product available however is beyond me. WWE is to wrestling as the Top 40 is to music. Sure it's the best promoted and has the highest production values, but it's also cheap, easy, and dumbed down to appeal to the lowest common denominator. If that's all you look for in your art (and wrestling most definatly is an art) then yeah, I guess WWE is all that matters. Some people have higher standards though. *awaits you to be flamed for your "pretentious elitism"*
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KLRA
El Dandy
Halt. I am Reptar.
Posts: 7,591
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Post by KLRA on Jan 14, 2007 21:27:28 GMT -5
Speaking in broad, mainstream terms, then yes, right now WWE is all that matters. How any actual wrestling fan can consider WWE the best product available however is beyond me. WWE is to wrestling as the Top 40 is to music. Sure it's the best promoted and has the highest production values, but it's also cheap, easy, and dumbed down to appeal to the lowest common denominator. If that's all you look for in your art (and wrestling most definatly is an art) then yeah, I guess WWE is all that matters. Some people have higher standards though. What he said.
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Post by RandomHero on Jan 14, 2007 21:43:07 GMT -5
Speaking in broad, mainstream terms, then yes, right now WWE is all that matters. How any actual wrestling fan can consider WWE the best product available however is beyond me. WWE is to wrestling as the Top 40 is to music. Sure it's the best promoted and has the highest production values, but it's also cheap, easy, and dumbed down to appeal to the lowest common denominator. If that's all you look for in your art (and wrestling most definatly is an art) then yeah, I guess WWE is all that matters. Some people have higher standards though. *awaits you to be flamed for your "pretentious elitism"* Eh, when typing that I thought I sounded pretty elitist, but I mean really, it's the truth. Flame away I guess.
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Mr. Zombie
Don Corleone
The Original Chris Farley
Posts: 1,526
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Post by Mr. Zombie on Jan 14, 2007 21:45:34 GMT -5
To use your analogy, the NBA and NFL is the only basketball people care about, and college and high school ball are nothing?
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"IcePic" Rick Cobos
Don Corleone
www.ericbischoff.com - some great comedy material!!!
Posts: 2,002
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Post by "IcePic" Rick Cobos on Jan 14, 2007 21:46:32 GMT -5
*awaits you to be flamed for your "pretentious elitism"* Eh, when typing that I thought I sounded pretty elitist, but I mean really, it's the truth. quoted for accuracy
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nothing
Bubba Ho-Tep
nothing can stop me now because i do not care anymore.
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Post by nothing on Jan 14, 2007 22:37:44 GMT -5
I think that what the original poster wanted to say all along was that WWE is the only "mainstream" promotion in America as of now, which is just true.
However, to say that this automatically gives WWE the edge over the wrestling world (specially about every wrestler wanting to work with WWE)........ well, logic says it SHOULD give them the edge, but since there is a lack of logic recently in the WWE, they don't have any superiority anymore.
And for the record, that superiority DOES NOT show in the amount of fans that TNA or ROH have, that shows in the amount of WWE fans that have just quit watching or being into wrestling overall. And that is a lot of fans.
And don't call me a "ROHbot" or "TNA's #1 fan", much less an "indies mark", because I am not: I barely get to watch TNA, and I don't get watch ROH nor to any other indies at all. In fact, all I do is watch RAW, SD and ECW.
And I don't remember the original poster trashing or even referring to foreign federations, why is everyone naming them (not that they don't deserve to be defended, but they don't come into the conversation)?
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"IcePic" Rick Cobos
Don Corleone
www.ericbischoff.com - some great comedy material!!!
Posts: 2,002
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Post by "IcePic" Rick Cobos on Jan 14, 2007 22:39:39 GMT -5
The original poster stated that every wrestler's dream is to be in WWE, when in fact that is incorrect; many of them grew up wanting to wrestle in WWE or New Japan or All Japan or AAA or CMLL or in today's world, NOAH as well.
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Post by 'Sweet n' Sour' A. A. Estrada on Jan 14, 2007 22:44:08 GMT -5
I think Mike Quackenbush is a good example. He seems to be just happy in CHIKARA and putting on great matches in front of a few hundred people.
It's not quite like most sports, where you're gunning for the big leagues because you want the big bucks. I imagine a lot of people just do it because they love wrestling. My friend Danny Duggan knows he'll never 'make it', but he does it because he loves the sport. If he did get a shot at the big time, he'd do it, but he has a real job and isn't banking on it.
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Post by Big DSR Energy on Jan 15, 2007 4:40:49 GMT -5
I think Mike Quackenbush is a good example. He seems to be just happy in CHIKARA and putting on great matches in front of a few hundred people. It's not quite like most sports, where you're gunning for the big leagues because you want the big bucks. I imagine a lot of people just do it because they love wrestling. My friend Danny Duggan knows he'll never 'make it', but he does it because he loves the sport. If he did get a shot at the big time, he'd do it, but he has a real job and isn't banking on it. I just want to point out that Quack is not only in CHIKARA. He's taken bookings and won championships in various promotions throughout the world, including AULL in Mexico, IWA MS, and WXW Germany.
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Post by Loki on Jan 15, 2007 10:00:06 GMT -5
As usual, the "truth" lies in the middle... WWE is indeed the ONLY mainstream, globally known wrestling (or SE) organization. It's a fact, and it's totally useless saying otherwise. If a non-traditional wrestling country has a wrestling TV deal, I bet my ass it's WWE... WWE have tons of money, better production values, pyros and every sort of frills etc... Does this make the actual in-ring product "better"? NO Does this make the OVERALL FEELING of the product better? YES It may be "sad" or stupid, but the wrestling aspect in pro-wrestling (after the first boom in the 80s) has NEVER been the main focus. People wanted to see Hulk Hogan kicking ass, to hear Piper's rants in the Pit... Good wrestling got over as some kind of "by-product" of the aforementioned entertaining aspects. With that, I'm not saying it's ok having little in-ring action, and not even that great, as long as it's presented in a fancy and bombastic way (like WWE's being lately) But it's hard to deny the "big time" feeling WWE can grant, even with a modest product, can garner more general interest than a well-wrestled, well-scripted "indy" match held in front of a few thousand (hundreds) people, with little "make-up" and so on... I think we're seeing this WWE vs Indies "war" from a different level: we, as WRESTLING FANS, may know and appreciate different styles and hence may enjoy WWE, TNA, ROH and whatever... The general audience (aka the mainstream) will only care for the Flashy WWE. With a soccer comparison... Real Madrid, AC Milan or Manchester United are household names, and will have a crapload of "fans" (who may or may not be competent fans) just because of the Starpower name of the team and of the players. Competent fans will point out that other, less popular, teams play better games and are more fun to watch, but in the end such analysis requires a different take on the sport... Ronaldinho scores with a bycicle kick, it's headlines all over the world. Loria (or Quagliarella or Materazzi) scored with a better-looking kick, but who knows that? Few... because Ronaldinho sells and is well-known... Ditto for music... Generic MTV band #4562 will sell out stadiums in the next few months, zillions of people will flock in to see 80-years-old Rolling Stones, while many talented "underground" (I use such word loosely) bands struggle to sell a 3000 seats venue... I kinda lost my initial point... Bottom line: WWE is the most popular Wrestling federation PERIOD. You may like or dislike the product, but you can't deny it's all that matters to a mainstream audience... If you enjoy a more wrestling oriented product, it's fine. Ditto if you like your gimmicky SE thing. We'd stop trying to convince people that OUR take is the right one
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Chainsaw
T
A very BAD man.
It is what it is
Posts: 90,480
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Post by Chainsaw on Jan 15, 2007 10:18:45 GMT -5
The original poster stated that every wrestler's dream is to be in WWE, when in fact that is incorrect; many of them grew up wanting to wrestle in WWE or New Japan or All Japan or AAA or CMLL or in today's world, NOAH as well. Also, look at the era where a lot of those guys grew up in: just like us, they were hooked on the superstar wrestling as kids in the mid-80's. They not only had the WWF to start out with, but they also had the Attitude Era, The WCW/NWO era, and the Extreme Revolution of ECW. How could you NOT want to wrestle back then if you were a fan? Plus, people were getting superstar contracts and making fistloads of money. There was money, there riveting storylines, everything seemed wide open. But then, WCW and ECW went out of business, Vince didn't have any competition, and the company had nothing to work for. It's like how Hunter S. Thompson described the '60's in Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas. You could stand on a mountain, and see where the wave broke, and rolled back into the ocean. I feel worse for the generation that's growing up watching now. They're being fed mediocrity by the spoonful, and they won't have any real standard to set for themselves if they want to become wrestlers. They see guys that mostly get by on a whitebread personality and bland mic skills, and think that's the standard bearer. All they need to do is get jacked, learn two or 3 power moves, and they can become the next World's Champion. Thankfully, the internet and DVD is bringing stuff like ROH, PWG, CHIKARA, and all of the Japanese and Mexican promotions more into people's lives, but considering how unmotivated today's generation seems to hunt these things down (and I hope I'm wrong on that), it doesn't seem likely that people's mentalities will change anytime soon. OK, that concludes today's Old Coot rant...
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Post by SparkyPlugg on Jan 15, 2007 10:31:47 GMT -5
I remember watching a shoot interview with Raven and he said that if he'd known how much he could make working the indie circuit, then he would have left WWF/E a lot earlier.
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Post by tommyvercetti on Jan 15, 2007 10:50:28 GMT -5
I don't really care which company is the biggest, or which one "matters" more.
I will watch what entertains me..I wont watch what does not.
I watched Crocket era NWA.
I watched original ECW.
I watched 95- 98 WCW.
I watch TNA, sometimes with my thumb on the FF button just in case I glimpse VKM..
I have watched WWF/E and enjoyed it at times throughout its history.
I watch ROH whenever I can.
The fact is...I just cant bring myself to watch WWE as it is right now..and has been for years.
It just doesnt entertain me.
I dont hate it..I dont begrudge other people for liking it..and I'd tune in again at once if I thought I'd be entertained,,(sometimes I'll watch a little to see if it's changed any. I usually change the channel 15 to 30 minutes into it.)
As far as I'm concerned there isnt enough entertainment in a WWE program to justify devoting one or two hours of my time watching it.
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"IcePic" Rick Cobos
Don Corleone
www.ericbischoff.com - some great comedy material!!!
Posts: 2,002
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Post by "IcePic" Rick Cobos on Jan 15, 2007 12:17:43 GMT -5
As usual, the "truth" lies in the middle... WWE is indeed the ONLY mainstream, globally known wrestling (or SE) organization. It's a fact, and it's totally useless saying otherwise. If a non-traditional wrestling country has a wrestling TV deal, I bet my ass it's WWE... WWE have tons of money, better production values, pyros and every sort of frills etc... Does this make the actual in-ring product "better"? NO Does this make the OVERALL FEELING of the product better? YES It may be "sad" or stupid, but the wrestling aspect in pro-wrestling (after the first boom in the 80s) has NEVER been the main focus. People wanted to see Hulk Hogan kicking ass, to hear Piper's rants in the Pit... Good wrestling got over as some kind of "by-product" of the aforementioned entertaining aspects. With that, I'm not saying it's ok having little in-ring action, and not even that great, as long as it's presented in a fancy and bombastic way (like WWE's being lately) But it's hard to deny the "big time" feeling WWE can grant, even with a modest product, can garner more general interest than a well-wrestled, well-scripted "indy" match held in front of a few thousand (hundreds) people, with little "make-up" and so on... I think we're seeing this WWE vs Indies "war" from a different level: we, as WRESTLING FANS, may know and appreciate different styles and hence may enjoy WWE, TNA, ROH and whatever... The general audience (aka the mainstream) will only care for the Flashy WWE. With a soccer comparison... Real Madrid, AC Milan or Manchester United are household names, and will have a crapload of "fans" (who may or may not be competent fans) just because of the Starpower name of the team and of the players. Competent fans will point out that other, less popular, teams play better games and are more fun to watch, but in the end such analysis requires a different take on the sport... Ronaldinho scores with a bycicle kick, it's headlines all over the world. Loria (or Quagliarella or Materazzi) scored with a better-looking kick, but who knows that? Few... because Ronaldinho sells and is well-known... Ditto for music... Generic MTV band #4562 will sell out stadiums in the next few months, zillions of people will flock in to see 80-years-old Rolling Stones, while many talented "underground" (I use such word loosely) bands struggle to sell a 3000 seats venue... I kinda lost my initial point... Bottom line: WWE is the most popular Wrestling federation PERIOD. You may like or dislike the product, but you can't deny it's all that matters to a mainstream audience... If you enjoy a more wrestling oriented product, it's fine. Ditto if you like your gimmicky SE thing. We'd stop trying to convince people that OUR take is the right one exactly
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