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Post by gmanquik on Sept 18, 2007 15:07:28 GMT -5
In all seriousness, this has to be the wordiest thread ever. I like it.
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Post by wrestlecrapcrap on Sept 18, 2007 15:20:05 GMT -5
I understand what you are saying. But this is WWE you're talking about. What you're saying is spot on, but I dare say that it will all just be swept under the rug and not mentioned, because to do what you're describing, the company would have to care about its midcarders. My guess is that it's never mentioned and footage is never shown of it, and that Londrick will be right where they were before being pedigreed, in the title hunt against champions that were put over prior to the handicap match as the "best team in the business right now” by JR, only to be beaten by one man 5 minutes later with his set-up hold. That's not infinitely devastating or anything, but I'd rather it happened differently. I'm not so much angry with Triple H winning, so much as how he won. I'd have loved it if he brained one of them with the sledgehammer, thus equalizing the odds, instead of just beating them clean. And as for the Londrick thing, I think I'd rather Trips just have left the ring without shaking their hands, thus hammering home the point that he's a loner without adding two more corpses to an already outrageously unrealistic list of causalities. I mean, really, how hard would it have been to have Triple H actually give Londrick the rub by putting them over? That's what stars are supposed to do for guys who aren't on their level. As much as we bash Hogan, he was always teaming up with midcarders and by proxy that gave them the feel that maybe, yes, they deserved to get a little attention. Look at Survivor Series '90 with Warrior, Hogan and Tito Santana as a team. They treated him as an equal in the prematch interview, even though he wasn't really, and by proxy of this, Tito seemed legit in there after actually doing 4 straight years of jobs. That's how the business works. I don't think Triple H should necessarily be jobbing, but instead, they shouldn't book him as so infinitely better than anyone else that they're seen as worthless and expendable. I mean, why should we even watch midcard matches then? And wasn't Triple H himself once a midcard guy? I'm sure he didn't appreciate Warrior making him look like a complete and utter tool at Wrestlemania 12. I mean, he did go back prior to the Warrior match and try and go over the match and his spots because he was a hungry young guy wanting to look at the very least credible, only to be told flat out that he was going to kick out of his finisher and pin him in under a minute. That's a wee bit of hypocrisy. You'd think that a guy who was heir apparent to RUNNING the company, would use that stroke just so one day it could be stocked with a full roster of over guys, of every star level. You know, so when he's retired and sitting in Titan Tower, there will be new main eventers to make his company money. Fair points, but maybe the WWE just thought it was more valuble to them to have HHH look like an unstoppable monster who has just returned to put the locker room on notice instead of having Londrick look a little better in the short term. I don't agree entirely with the notion that WWE simply doesn't care about it's midcard. Sure it was fantastic when we had Jericho, Benoit, Angle plus E + C, The Dudley's and The Hardy's, and today it isn't as good. I believe that's largely down the brand extention though, there is now a smattering of over mid carders on each brand, with the rest being on Dykstra level of overness currently. I think if you had for example the Hardy/MVP feud, plus Santino, Umaga, Carlito etc, plus the main event scene from all shows being put back on to the same show, the mid card would look a lot more healthy. It is split though, and therefore it looks like there isn't much talent being developed. Even the tag division would look healthier would they all be in the same brand. They devoted quie long segments to getting Santino over. The Hardy/MVP feud is fantastic. People may have differing opinions of the Carlito/HHH feud but he is in the very least in a feud with a main eventer, which gets him some exposure. There is Kennedy, who they are desperately finding angles to get him over with. There is Jeff Hardy, who is still over. There is without even mentioning ECW, where Punk, Morrison, Burke, Cor Von etc could come in and either main event of fill out the upper mid card in revamped single brand. We do have a good mid card, and the WWE does care about producing future stars, it's just that they are smattered over each of their shows. HHH doing that to Londrick isn't vindicative of the WWE's attitude towards mid carder's, they are simply building up HHH to look like an unstoppable bad ass again. Londrick were the fall guys, but HHH destroying two former tag champions makes him look stronger than destroying no name jobbers. There was a good post the other day saying people had the aim of wrestling backwards - ironically in a Carlito/HHH thread. They said it wasn't the main eventers job to job to mid carders. It was the main eventers job to stay over so that can feud with fellow main eventers. It is the mid carders job to beat lower mid carders and feud with fellow upper mid carders, while lower mid carders stay over jobbers etc. Then each guy, for example a main eventer can look credible going into a main event feud, and when he does job it looks special because it doesn't happen often. They was merely building HHH up to look unstoppable again. It wasn't an ego trip.
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The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
Posts: 37,642
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Post by The Ichi on Sept 18, 2007 15:33:46 GMT -5
It's clumsy booking. I'm sorry, but it is.
I don't know buisness. That's fine. I don't claim to.
But I do know this: I know that HHH is someone who can get over extremely easily. Hell all he needs to do is his entrance followed by a couple of dick jokes - something that Cena would get lynched for - and he's the most over guy in the building. Easy as pie. London and Kendrick are a promising tag team that are just lacking in the crowd support department, but not badly enough that they can't overcome that with the right sort of exposure and momentum on their side. They were close to getting over on Raw (like they were on Smackdown), but now they're pretty much going to be remembered as those two guys that got pwned by Triple H for no reason other than to make himself look strong. Hence, a burial.
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Corporate H
Grimlock
He Buries Them Alive
Posts: 13,829
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Post by Corporate H on Sept 18, 2007 15:34:32 GMT -5
In all seriousness, this has to be the wordiest thread ever. I like it. I've created a monster.
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Post by HMARK Center on Sept 18, 2007 16:25:48 GMT -5
For the record, for those upset at the burial of the tag division, well, ROH DID just put on a near five star Tag Title match that's gonna main event one of it's pay per views soon. Y'know, just sayin'...don't mind me, not trying to say anything by that... ...In all honesty, Mauler has the right idea: if you're really put off by the product, do what I, and many others have done: tune out, find an alternative (be it another wrestling show/company or another hobby entirely), and just watch your blood pressure drop. Vote with your remote, vote with your wallets, vote with your words (letters, emails, etc.), but don't vote by just whining on a forum and then tuning right the hell back in the next week. If there were a sitting president that you absolutely could not stand, what would it accomplish to sit at home and complain about him, and then sleep in on election day? The same principle runs true here. If you can't stand the WWE's product, if it's become anathema to you, if you find yourself annoyed, bored, upset, or whatever after most viewings of Raw, SD, or ECW, remember, Vince is powerless without you. He NEEDS you. If you're not there, he's inevitably going to get the memo.
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Post by MichaelMartini on Sept 18, 2007 16:48:12 GMT -5
To the people that said tag teams aren't important I ask this - Would the WWE even be around anymore without it? After Hogan and Savage jumped ship and the Warrior turned out to be a bust, would Bret and Shawn have been able to carry the company if they were made to look pathetic in their tag team days? Would Edge have been a credible foil to Cena withought his tag legacy (and don't underestimate his importance. He's the only guy that was able to get people cheering for Cena again)?
And to the people saying WWE doesn't need for their midcard to look strong - Are you insane? Where will the stars of tommorrow come from? If the Attitude era hadn't placed so much importance on a strong midcard the company would've folded by now. Ask yourself why HHH is still so over? It's not just because of his connections, I'd say it's more due to him being one of the last hold outs from the attitude era.
How many viewers still watch because they're hoping they'll return to the glory days? Total speculation but I'd say at least half. Make no mistake about it, things aren't peachy keen with the E right now, despite the spin some posters are giving it. The exodus is happening, just slowly, as old habits die hard. Look at the ratings. The WWE hasn't been gaining them, they've been losing them one point at a time for years now. And it's not Cena's fault, it's not HHH's fault, it's entirely due to this stupid Harlem Globetrotter booking that only small children could enjoy and so simple minded that they'll quickly outgrow it.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2007 17:13:00 GMT -5
k..... i'm gonna say this...
Back in the day (yeah thats right)
Undertaker, Stone cold, Kane, and the Rock all have beaten tag teams cleanly. UT has destroyed the Hardy's, Rock took out E&C, Remember back when there were more than one main eventer because they all won their matches against the tag teams? HHH doing it shouldn't really bury them... back when the tag teams were thriving they were beaten 2v1
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Post by MichaelMartini on Sept 18, 2007 17:31:13 GMT -5
k..... i'm gonna say this... Back in the day (yeah thats right) Undertaker, Stone cold, Kane, and the Rock all have beaten tag teams cleanly. UT has destroyed the Hardy's, Rock took out E&C, Remember back when there were more than one main eventer because they all won their matches against the tag teams? HHH doing it shouldn't really bury them... back when the tag teams were thriving they were beaten 2v1 Were they the champions at the time?
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Sept 18, 2007 17:31:50 GMT -5
Because there are actually people who are defending the act itself, and not stating your (correct) opinion that nothing will change. And these people are doing it, not because of some logic based argument wherein their points prove that an already superover babyface is going to draw more money because of it, but rather just because A) they like Triple H. And B) don't care about who it is that's getting annihilated. That's really it. There's no logical defense for why it had to happen. And I don't buy the previous arguments that this somehow gives Londrick a "character". A character of two complete dorks who get killed. Ya, that's the gimmick that'll get them over. Seriously though, as I mentioned way earlier in the thread, I think the problem is not the idea of Triple H being a tweener who kicks ass, but the sheer amount of ass he kicked at one time. You can't really logically defend that with a "so and so did it" because it was wrong then, too. But people saying it's OK because they just happen to love Triple H is an asinine argument. Can people for one minute not put aside blind fandom (And I'm a huge Triple H fan) to see that at the root of it, it made no sense and ended up being a terrible idea? Saying it one time doesn't mean that you have to burn your Triple H posters and throw out your King of Kings T-shirts. Come on. Sometimes I think some people just like to be contrary just for the sake of going against popular opinion. Who's defending it as for as booking? I liked it cuz I liked HHH, I was entertained. As far as burials or whatever, I don't care about that, so I'm neither defending that; nor attacking it.
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Post by Kash Flagg on Sept 18, 2007 18:46:10 GMT -5
All I know is, if I'm a face on Raw and Triple H is in trouble, I'm going "F*** him. That bastard doesn't appreciate my help".
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Post by TRUTH TELLER on Sept 18, 2007 18:55:23 GMT -5
Because there are actually people who are defending the act itself, and not stating your (correct) opinion that nothing will change. And these people are doing it, not because of some logic based argument wherein their points prove that an already superover babyface is going to draw more money because of it, but rather just because A) they like Triple H. And B) don't care about who it is that's getting annihilated. That's really it. There's no logical defense for why it had to happen. And I don't buy the previous arguments that this somehow gives Londrick a "character". A character of two complete dorks who get killed. Ya, that's the gimmick that'll get them over. Seriously though, as I mentioned way earlier in the thread, I think the problem is not the idea of Triple H being a tweener who kicks ass, but the sheer amount of ass he kicked at one time. You can't really logically defend that with a "so and so did it" because it was wrong then, too. But people saying it's OK because they just happen to love Triple H is an asinine argument. Can people for one minute not put aside blind fandom (And I'm a huge Triple H fan) to see that at the root of it, it made no sense and ended up being a terrible idea? Saying it one time doesn't mean that you have to burn your Triple H posters and throw out your King of Kings T-shirts. Come on. Sometimes I think some people just like to be contrary just for the sake of going against popular opinion. Who's defending it as for as booking? I liked it cuz I liked HHH, I was entertained. As far as burials or whatever, I don't care about that, so I'm neither defending that; nor attacking it. I don't understand what you're saying. I said the only people who seem to be defending the act itself are people who like HHH and don't care about who he demolished, and you kind of just made that point again. What are we arguing? I'm happy you liked it, and like Triple H. I like Triple H too. I just don't see logic in how it was executed and fail to see how anyone, including Triple H, who is already the most over babyface in the company benefited. I'm not condemning WWE, or threatening not to watch. I'm just stating that was kind of shooting yourself in the foot. When you have 10 guys gone, it seems kind of silly to make 5 guys in one shot look weak. Of course, that's just my opinion.
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Post by Loser troll. Please ban me on Sept 18, 2007 19:08:41 GMT -5
For the record, for those upset at the burial of the tag division, well, ROH DID just put on a near five star Tag Title match that's gonna main event one of it's pay per views soon. Y'know, just sayin'...don't mind me, not trying to say anything by that... ...In all honesty, Mauler has the right idea: if you're really put off by the product, do what I, and many others have done: tune out, find an alternative (be it another wrestling show/company or another hobby entirely), and just watch your blood pressure drop. Vote with your remote, vote with your wallets, vote with your words (letters, emails, etc.), but don't vote by just whining on a forum and then tuning right the hell back in the next week. If there were a sitting president that you absolutely could not stand, what would it accomplish to sit at home and complain about him, and then sleep in on election day? The same principle runs true here. If you can't stand the WWE's product, if it's become anathema to you, if you find yourself annoyed, bored, upset, or whatever after most viewings of Raw, SD, or ECW, remember, Vince is powerless without you. He NEEDS you. If you're not there, he's inevitably going to get the memo. i try to do just that, and yet when i check in from time to time on the e, it seems nothing has changed at all.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Sept 18, 2007 20:22:36 GMT -5
You know what I think is interesting? People differ drastically in their interpretations of any given crowd response. Not just here, but every time on this forum anyone talks about a crowd "popping huge" or "sitting on their hands," I kind of rarely agree. I assume everyone is just stating their honest interpretation, but there's wild differences, here.
Like, seriously. I think the crowd cheered louder when London and Kendrick ran out than when HHH pedigreed them or posed (but they cheered loudest of all when HHH came out). Some people are acting like the pedigreeing got this huge pop, and London and Kendrick got nothing. Who's right? How could we possibly all always disagree whenever we talk about anything like this?
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mysticalhamster
AC Slater
Hail to the king baby! Duke Nukem is back!!
Posts: 203
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Post by mysticalhamster on Sept 18, 2007 21:05:21 GMT -5
Hi. Why has Trips been so strongly booked since his return? Does Vince and HHH really think we believe even for a second that Carlito is a real threat to HHH, even in a steel cage?
He just returned, and in one 15 minute scene of destruction destroyed several months of building up Umaga as a huge unstoppable threat. HHH made Umaga look very very weak. I can't wait to find out if they ever call Umaga 'unstoppable' again. Umaga is totally ruined for me now, he needs to go babyface. I won't even think of him as savage again. 8(
Last night, HHH destroyed not only the Tag Team Champs, but also the Tag Team Champs number 1 contender. Does this now mean HHH is the Tag Team Champ? I am confused, since why should I care about the Tag Team feud between Cade/Murdoch * Kendrick/London? All of them got destroyed, and have no value anymore save a gimmick change. 8(
I think HHH destroyed someone else since he has returned, but I forget who since their name means nothing anymore. 8(
HHH also seems to have unlimited backstage powers in regards to setting up the Irish Office for vince. Just how did trips get the unicorn into Vince's office past security and Coach? It's just damn stupid, it makes HHH seem as if he can do anything at any time. 8(
I have already read a preview of the match flow between Carlito and HHH steel cage match. After HHH destroyes a bloody Carlito in 2 min, HHH then starts to attack the cage itself, knocking down all 4 walls with his sledgehammer, then proceeds to eat, yes, eat the steel cage. He totally devours it. What the hell. 8(
In conclusion, I cannot wait until the true child of Vince is revealed, since it will be HHH daughter! Yes, showing how dominant he is, HHH goes back in time to knock up some woman, who's daughter gives birth herself to Vince's TRUE child - Mr. Kennedy! Not only does HHH display his time travel ability, but he also has instant dominance over Mr. Kennedy. Blargh.
So as you can see, my hopes that trips would slowly elevate new talent to help the WWE overall when it most needs it, vanished as quickly as the Diva's virginity did after they got their first visit from aunt flo.
Damn you HHH.
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Post by themanwithnoname on Sept 22, 2007 7:52:11 GMT -5
I'm so happy that HHH buried those guys so that people will realize how bad HHH is. Meanwhile, those young guys who he buried will take another year or so to get any credibility back1
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Post by themanwithnoname on Sept 22, 2007 7:59:47 GMT -5
I'm enjoying the people defending HHH. It's going to be fun watching HHH destroy the credibility of the young talent, and then have the same people defending HHH starting whining about how bad the WWE is lately.
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Post by themanwithnoname on Sept 22, 2007 8:01:32 GMT -5
I've been a big defender of Triple H for the longest time, but this is just blatant. For someone who got buried hard by The Ultimate Warrior, you'd think he'd have a little more foresight in his actions. And as you can see, he's doing just fine after being buried, at a WrestleMania no less! And why is he doing so well? Because other superstars like Mick Foley and Austin were willing to give him the rub that's why. So these situations are completely different since he isn't willing to give the rub to young talent.
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Post by themanwithnoname on Sept 22, 2007 8:03:21 GMT -5
I must've missed the news about HHH being Head Booker. I guess you also missed the news where HHH is married to the bosses daughter who is also a head booker.
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Post by Hugh Mungus on Sept 22, 2007 8:42:58 GMT -5
This is like the Fairly Oddparents TV movie, "Channel Chasers", in which:
Triple H = Vicky the Babysitter
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Post by Near Fantastica on Sept 22, 2007 12:28:51 GMT -5
People blame Hunter for everything. It's absolutely ridiculous. These same people also know how horrible creative can be and how they have their top superstars go over everyone.
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