Run Sheet

[The F'N Captain]

loki said:

mysterydriver said:

Wait...how are fans supposed to think the show is run?

That there is no order and people just randomly go out to the ring? Then how could announcers say "Hey! This isn't his time! Why is he interrupting?!"

There would have to be SOME order to the show. How else would people know when their matches were? "Um, I'll have some coffee and...is that my frickin music?!"

The only thing I saw/heard that "Exposes" the business was HHH's crack about how Michaels has his run sheet in order to remember his lines and even THAT is pushing it.

Sure fans "know" there's an order, and a strict one, to the show.

BUT, acknowledging that on-air, and having your "actors" referring to the script during their performance is lame IMO

Metatheater and pro-wrestling don't click too well... especially because, to an extent, kayfabe is still there.

Weren't we mad at the Jackass guy for laughing during the match against Umaga? That's more or less the same issue: breaking the flow and the "reality" of the show.

What's next? HHH hits the pedigree on HBK, Shawn stands up a la Ultimate Warrior and says "oh man, you're getting old! it's not as painful as it used to be..."?

There's a big difference between no selling a big move in a match and making fun of the schedule.

[Loki]

sexualwalking said:

There's a big difference between no selling a big move in a match and making fun of the schedule.

My scenartio was supposed to happen during a wacky D-X segment.

And while the action is different, the result is the same: it breaks the illusion of the show being "real".

Waving the script in front of the camera is like saying: "hey folks, it's all fake, we don't hate eachother, we don't really hit eachother, it's just like another sitcom"

Why should we care about the matches if the Superstars themselves kinda admit it's all planned beforehand, LIVE and IN-CHARACTER?

[molson5]

loki said:

BUT, acknowledging that on-air, and having your "actors" referring to the script during their performance is lame IMO

I think you're missing his point.

Even in a kayfabe world, wrestling has run-sheets. Even in 1985, announcers would say that certain matches and interviewes were scheduled that week. They were referring to a run sheet - you could often see them reading from a paper. that's not breaking kayfabe.

It's not like they were telling you who was going over in the matches later in the show.

[Grotto]

I think I see Loki's point. Stop me if I am wrong here...

You have to have a line that is not crossed at some point with breaking kayfabe. I don't have a problem with the runsheet stuff. I thought it was kind of funny, and typically irrreverent DX fodder. But...if you go too far into letting people behind the curtain you can harm the actual wrestling.

On some level people have to believe in the wrestling. Otherwise...you may as well stop wrestling all together and just become a true soap opera, or sit-com. If people do not believe you are resolving something by the wrestling...it starts to have no purpose.

Am I close, Loki?

[PTBartman]

loki said:

sexualwalking said:

There's a big difference between no selling a big move in a match and making fun of the schedule.

My scenartio was supposed to happen during a wacky D-X segment.

And while the action is different, the result is the same: it breaks the illusion of the show being "real".

Waving the script in front of the camera is like saying: "hey folks, it's all fake, we don't hate eachother, we don't really hit eachother, it's just like another sitcom"

Why should we care about the matches if the Superstars themselves kinda admit it's all planned beforehand, LIVE and IN-CHARACTER?

But a run sheet isn't a script per se, like a copy of "Macbeth." It's a schedule. Every (live) TV show has one, including the news. In fact watch any TV show that deals with a Live TV show (like Sport's Night or the new Kelsey Grammar program) and you'll hear mention of a Run Sheet.

[Loki]

grotto said:

I think I see Loki's point. Stop me if I am wrong here...

You have to have a line that is not crossed at some point with breaking kayfabe. I don't have a problem with the runsheet stuff. I thought it was kind of funny, and typically irrreverent DX fodder. But...if you go too far into letting people behind the curtain you can harm the actual wrestling.

On some level people have to believe in the wrestling. Otherwise...you may as well stop wrestling all together and just become a true soap opera, or sit-com. If people do not believe you are resolving something by the wrestling...it starts to have no purpose.

Am I close, Loki?

Spot on, grotto!

Knowing that the show is scripted from start to finish is one thing, but pro-wrestling isn't portrayed like a regular TV show.

The "competition" is still regarded as legit, so speaking openly of a run sheet gives too much away.

I know that D-X didn't spoil a thing with their reference, but nonetheless, flapping the script in front of a camera was unnecessary and "dangerous". Even more the shot at the writing team..

If they hint (heavily) that every detail of the episode is planned, and promos are written by other people, the "magic" is gone.
It's only a step away from admitting, live, that the outcomes of the matches are pre-determined and the "champion" is the guy who can make most money to the company.

[poi zen rana]

so why would khali care about being in dx? or boogieman for that matter. i am surprised this is receiving such great response. well i am glad you all enjoyed it. i just can't get into the 20 minute promos to start shows anymore.

[Libertine]

davidc said:

mysterydriver said:

"Um, I'll have some coffee and...is that my frickin music?!"

;D

Awesome observation.

They need a gimmick where the guy is always late, going to the wrong venues, not knowing who or when he's fighting.

Perhaps a full-fledged stoner gimmick.

[Mozenrath]

blindgunfighter said:

davidc said:

;D

Awesome observation.

They need a gimmick where the guy is always late, going to the wrong venues, not knowing who or when he's fighting.

Perhaps a full-fledged stoner gimmick.

They should give that to Carlito to give a nod to the NEWZ stuff.

"I'm facing Cody Rhodes in 5...."

*Ends up at a baseball game*

"WHAT THE CRAP?!"

[jevman]

loki said:

Just imagine watching SAW XVI and have Jigsaw saying "wow, these traps are sick! who came up with such ideas?" before moving on with the normal flow of the action...

Just for the record, Boston Legal does this all the time, never detracts from the show.

Lets just assume for a minute you still believe all of wrestling is real, announcing a "run sheet" doesn't ruin it. Of course parts of the show are scripted.... otherwise who decides what match is when, when DX comes out, etc etc. A run sheet doesn't reveal anything other than a its an actual TV show and isn't run like the backstage of the old muppet show was.

[Mozenrath]

loki said:

It was funny indeed, but it's a stupid move nonetheless.

We know it's scripted, the vast majority of fans know it's scripted, Superstars are portrayed as "performers" by WWE etc

BUT

having your "actors" referring to a script while ON AIR is dumb and counterproductive. Especially if we have to believe the same guys are gonna "putting their career on the line" in another segment later in the night, or at the next PPV.

HHH and HBK crackes jokes about a script, about who writes "such crap", about past storylines... how can we buy into the fierce rivalry against Umaga and Orton just an hour later?

Kayfabe being "dead" is one thing, exposing its corpse while still pretending she's alive (a la "weekend at Barney's") it's bad business.

Just imagine watching SAW XVI and have Jigsaw saying "wow, these traps are sick! who came up with such ideas?" before moving on with the normal flow of the action...

The difference is:

Jigsaw, though a feeble old man, was somehow able to carry away adults he kidnapped and will murder.

Wrestlers are supposed to be people at their workplace. Don't know about you, but anywhere I ever worked had rules and didn't have everyone on fries at the same time.

[Grotto]

kiddobradley said:

loki said:

It was funny indeed, but it's a stupid move nonetheless.

We know it's scripted, the vast majority of fans know it's scripted, Superstars are portrayed as "performers" by WWE etc

BUT

having your "actors" referring to a script while ON AIR is dumb and counterproductive. Especially if we have to believe the same guys are gonna "putting their career on the line" in another segment later in the night, or at the next PPV.

HHH and HBK crackes jokes about a script, about who writes "such crap", about past storylines... how can we buy into the fierce rivalry against Umaga and Orton just an hour later?

Kayfabe being "dead" is one thing, exposing its corpse while still pretending she's alive (a la "weekend at Barney's") it's bad business.

Just imagine watching SAW XVI and have Jigsaw saying "wow, these traps are sick! who came up with such ideas?" before moving on with the normal flow of the action...

The difference is:

Jigsaw, though a feeble old man, was somehow able to carry away adults he kidnapped and will murder.

Wrestlers are supposed to be people at their workplace. Don't know about you, but anywhere I ever worked had rules and didn't have everyone on fries at the same time.

I don't want to spoil anything...but have you seen the Saw movies? Specifically...have you seen Saw 4 yet??

[Mozenrath]

grotto said:

kiddobradley said:

The difference is:

Jigsaw, though a feeble old man, was somehow able to carry away adults he kidnapped and will murder.

Wrestlers are supposed to be people at their workplace. Don't know about you, but anywhere I ever worked had rules and didn't have everyone on fries at the same time.

I don't want to spoil anything...but have you seen the Saw movies? Specifically...have you seen Saw 4 yet??

Nope, haven't. Did they explain how a frail man with cancer carried a very obese man, and two men in the first movie?

[poi zen rana]

kiddobradley said:

blindgunfighter said:

They need a gimmick where the guy is always late, going to the wrong venues, not knowing who or when he's fighting.

Perhaps a full-fledged stoner gimmick.

They should give that to Carlito to give a nod to the NEWZ stuff.

"I'm facing Cody Rhodes in 5...."

*Ends up at a baseball game*

"WHAT THE CRAP?!"

you mean elijah burke right?

[Mozenrath]

poisonrana said:

kiddobradley said:

They should give that to Carlito to give a nod to the NEWZ stuff.

"I'm facing Cody Rhodes in 5...."

*Ends up at a baseball game*

"WHAT THE CRAP?!"

you mean elijah burke right?

Either of them would be comedy gold.

[Loki]

kiddobradley said:

Wrestlers are supposed to be people at their workplace. Don't know about you, but anywhere I ever worked had rules and didn't have everyone on fries at the same time.

Workplaces do have rules everywhere, but pro-wrestling isn't a McDonald's or a regular office.

I can live with run sheets, and every the markiest of marks understands that wrestlers aren't held up in cages backstage until it's time to go to the ring.

I know, everybody knows it's a TV show, but as long as WWE present the matches as "legit" and the competition as "real", it's none-sensical letting the audience go "on the other side of the stage".

In "smart kayfabe" wrestlers know when it's their turn to fight (kinda like in boxing if you will), but that's it.

Telling the crowd the whole episode is planned from A to Z and there are people WRITING THE PROMOS, is pushing it too far.

Why should I care about next HBK's promo on Orton and Survivor Series if half an hour earlier he and Triple H were joking about "who wrote that crap"?

[Kevin Hamilton]

I thought it was funny.

[Grotto]

kiddobradley said:

grotto said:

I don't want to spoil anything...but have you seen the Saw movies? Specifically...have you seen Saw 4 yet??

Nope, haven't. Did they explain how a frail man with cancer carried a very obese man, and two men in the first movie?

Yeah...they cover it.

[MCMGM]

I found this to be hilarous.