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Post by funkycoldmadina on Nov 19, 2007 0:45:54 GMT -5
I can't believe someone hasn't thought about Owen yet. Bret stated from the very beginning that Owen went to Vince immediately and requested that he be released and Vince turned him down. When Owen died, I seem to remember Bret bringing up the sentiment that if Vince had've released Owen when he screwed him, none of this would have happened. If it were all a work, Bret wouldnt have expected Owen to be released because it was just business. I think a lot of people overlook the fact that Vince probably signed the release because it furthered his character! By the time the documentary came out, Vince's Mr. McMahon bastard character had really taken off. This insight just futhered the idea that this was REAL! That McMahon was really trying to screw Austin, just look, he screwed Bret on the documentary! Vince McMahon above all else is a damn good business man. He afforded a little shame of being punched by a legit great wrestler and it helped further this character that as a foil to Austin made him a temporary BILLIONAIRE! And as for why he didnt sue Bret, Bret could've sued him for breach of contract because he had a creative control clause. So it wound up, Bret didnt sue Vince, Vince didnt sue Bret because both would've had countersuits thrown against them. It was real. Look at statements made after Owen's death etc. Everything said is explainable. Also, the only version I ever heard was that when Bret went to get in the shower, he told Vince if he was still there he was gonna punch him, he comes out, Vince is there, Bret belts him, Shane and I think Brisco drag McMahon out.
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General Zod
Samurai Cop
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KNEEL BEFORE ZOD!!
Posts: 2,163
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Post by General Zod on Nov 19, 2007 2:24:58 GMT -5
I can't believe that there are still sensationalists who insist that this was a work.
When you state as such, you're giving Vince McMahon far, far too much credit for being a genius, when (as the rest of his career suggests), he is simply a product of his luck and environment. At least moreso than his wrestling savvy.
I'm willing to bet my salary that nobody here has solid proof that either Bret, Vince, or someone close to either has fully admitted that it was a work.
It's in no way comparable to the Kaufman/Lawler series. By that suggestion, how many of you who think that Montreal was a work still think Andy Kaufman is alive, or that we never went to the moon?
I'm not saying that I'm willing to swallow whatever is fed to me, I'm saying that employing a bit of common sense in these situations would really keep the fire at a minimum and stop these silly conspiracy theories from becoming rumor.
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Post by Mercyful Fate on Nov 19, 2007 2:50:09 GMT -5
I can't believe someone hasn't thought about Owen yet. Bret stated from the very beginning that Owen went to Vince immediately and requested that he be released and Vince turned him down. When Owen died, I seem to remember Bret bringing up the sentiment that if Vince had've released Owen when he screwed him, none of this would have happened. If it were all a work, Bret wouldnt have expected Owen to be released because it was just business. That makes a lot of sense. Does anybody here really think that Bret would exploit Owen's death to sell the Montreal Screwjob angle? If the Screwjob were a work, then we'd have to assume that Bret made up the story about Owen being refused a release by Vince, which would then mean that Bret doesn't really blame Vince for Owen's death. Do you honestly think that Bret would lie about such serious matters as his own brother's death for the sake of the Screwjob angle?
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Post by PTBartman on Nov 19, 2007 2:55:48 GMT -5
According to someone i will not mention, but say he resembles and Acme tool that was dropped on a lot of cartoon heads, it was a work. Notice how the cameras did not pick up Bret punching Vince? If it was a shoot it would've been dropped by now anyways. Vince wouldn't of stayed at ringside to be spit on, and Bret would've taken his shot there instead of in the back. Notice how Bret told the camera men to leave him right before he "punched" Vince. It's a work and the greatest one of all time. Greg the Hammer?
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Post by capnsteve on Nov 19, 2007 4:05:56 GMT -5
If it was a shoot Vince would have never allowed any of the backstage footage to be shown. You have to sign a release for stuff like that. Do you really think they'd spend thousands of dollars filming before they got permission?
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Post by Throwback on Nov 19, 2007 5:59:50 GMT -5
all I have to say is this. Bret was a great story teller. but a horrendious actor. look at his face when the bell is rung. it almost looks like he is fighting back laughter. by the way I'm just playing devils advocate. I really don't care either way. but I will say. I've heard from sources close to Bret it was all a work. but then again the could be trying to save bret from lookinglike a cry baby.
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Post by Redbeard's Ghost on Nov 19, 2007 6:18:24 GMT -5
I can't believe that there are still sensationalists who insist that this was a work. When you state as such, you're giving Vince McMahon far, far too much credit for being a genius, when (as the rest of his career suggests), he is simply a product of his luck and environment. At least moreso than his wrestling savvy. I'm willing to bet my salary that nobody here has solid proof that either Bret, Vince, or someone close to either has fully admitted that it was a work. It's in no way comparable to the Kaufman/Lawler series. By that suggestion, how many of you who think that Montreal was a work still think Andy Kaufman is alive, or that we never went to the moon? I'm not saying that I'm willing to swallow whatever is fed to me, I'm saying that employing a bit of common sense in these situations would really keep the fire at a minimum and stop these silly conspiracy theories from becoming rumor. how is Vince a product of luck and his environment? First off, he wasn't given the company by his father, he bought it. So there is no luck element there. Second, he took a business that was marginal at best in the early 80's (business wise, economically, promoters weren't exactly raking in the cash) and expanded a regional promotion nationwide by shrewdly negotiating TV deals and cross promotional shows (MTV), changing the face of an entire industry. The man had his finger on the pulse of pop culture in the 80s. Luck was a non factor. Environment was actually a challenge. Im old enough to remember wrestling in the 70s and early 80s. In order the create a successful national promotion, Vince had to literally change the environment, as noted above. Remember Madusa dropping the WWF Womens title in the trash on Nitro? How about Scott Hall showing up in full Razor Ramon gimmick (sans outfit) on Nitro? How about Bischoff giving away RAW results to steal viewers? All of that contributed to Montreal. Brets character nonwithstanding (I dont believe he would have done this), Vince knew that Bischoff had the money and the stroke to pay Bret off to take the belt to WCW. That would have been monumental. It would have completely degraded the WWF Title (which at the time still had some clout). He could not allow that to happen. It was dog eat dog, and Vince did what he had to do to maintain the integrity of a company that employs thousands. Im not sure many understand exactly how close WWF was to being put under by Ted Turner. While I do not fully support the decision to go through with the Screwjob, I can understand why it happened. Business-wise, it made sense. That was the first step in WWF turning things around. From there, the Attitude era sprung eternal, and the rest is history. Whether it was a work or shoot, who knows. If it was a shoot, then it happened because of the reasons above. If it was a work, then it is the greatest single angle in the history of this sport. Either way, Vince McMahon is a genius.
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ItsaSantino
Trap-Jaw
Prepare to experience sexual magic
Posts: 425
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Post by ItsaSantino on Nov 19, 2007 6:23:19 GMT -5
I won't say that I absolutely believe it was a work, but anytime video cameras are rolling in the wrestling business, you can't hel[ but think you're only seeing what you're supposed to see. There are some things that just don't make much sense. Some have been answered and some haven't. 1. The timing and detail of the documentary. 2. youtube.com/watch?v=DmHQq-N4EZsIf this was real, why did the production team choose to play Bret's music while he broke stuff? Why did they keep the cameras on him? If I just screwed over a long time employee and they flipped out, I think I'd send security to the ring, not play his music to encourage his continued destruction. 3. Because this was the PEFECT ending for the Bret Hart character. He could claim to be a champion who never dropped his title. He didn't want Shawn Michaels to beat him, and with this ending, the win was beyond tainted. Vince becomes an evil character who the fans want to boo. Bret becomes an even bigger hero in Canada and the wrestling world gets a finish that'll be remembered forever. How could anyone predict that WCW would shoot all of the momentum this should have produced in the face? How could you predict Owen's death? How could you predict that Hart would have his career ended and suffer a stroke which prevented him from returning once his contract expired? 4. www.dailymotion.com/related/5167989/video/x32ryz_wwe-roundtable-discussion-re-monday_sportThis is beyond interesting as Jerry Lawler makes his feelings about Montreal (that it was a work) known and neither Bischoff or Jim Ross confirm or deny it. Hell, take a look at the expression on Bischoff's face when he gives his answer. There was a time when I was convinced this thing was real. Now, I can't help but think that Bret learned a trick or two from hanging out with Pillman. I think that one day we'll know for sure what happened in Montreal.
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The Cool Pup
Don Corleone
Flawless friends fondling flawless feet
Posts: 1,715
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Post by The Cool Pup on Nov 19, 2007 6:42:17 GMT -5
all I have to say is this. Bret was a great story teller. but a horrendious actor. look at his face when the bell is rung. it almost looks like he is fighting back laughter. by the way I'm just playing devils advocate. I really don't care either way. but I will say. I've heard from sources close to Bret it was all a work. but then again the could be trying to save bret from lookinglike a cry baby. That happens when you are so shocked at something you instinctively take a humorous approach. I play basketball and sometimes bad calls are made and many times players react that way, a type of "are you kidding me?" response. I am thinking it's real, primarily due to the Owen comments, but really, it wouldn't shock me the day if it comes out that it was a work. I would not put it behind the industry at all. Those videos posted by itsasantino do seem pretty interesting and I'll be watching them; but I still firmly believe it was legit.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2007 8:08:09 GMT -5
If it was a work or not is irrelevant. Both Vince and Bret went on to make millions of dollars. No one died, no one got hurt, no ones life was ruined.
Do I think it was a work? No.
If it was a work, do I give a crap? No.
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Hiroshi Hase
Patti Mayonnaise
The Good Ol' Days
Posts: 30,755
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Post by Hiroshi Hase on Nov 19, 2007 8:11:45 GMT -5
If it was a work or not is irrelevant. Both Vince and Bret went on to make millions of dollars. No one died, no one got hurt, no ones life was ruined. Do I think it was a work? No. If it was a work, do I give a crap? No. Perhaps you may not care, but a lot of others are quite interested in this, so it'll probably warrant discussion for years to come.
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Post by willywonka666 on Nov 19, 2007 8:12:37 GMT -5
I think it was legit. It was convenient that Bret was shooting a documentary at the time,but that could be too obvious to assume something was planned at the same time. Vince kinda lucked into the "Mr. McMahon" character through thids. He had been in the early stages of it anyway and this broke things wide open
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Post by Throwback on Nov 19, 2007 9:27:26 GMT -5
i think it worked out great for both vince and bret. not so much bret in the long run but they both got rich off of the screwjob. we'll find out eventually. I still say it was a work tho
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The OP
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
changed his name
Posts: 15,785
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Post by The OP on Nov 19, 2007 9:45:53 GMT -5
I can't believe that there are still sensationalists who insist that this was a work. When you state as such, you're giving Vince McMahon far, far too much credit for being a genius, when (as the rest of his career suggests), he is simply a product of his luck and environment. At least moreso than his wrestling savvy. I'm willing to bet my salary that nobody here has solid proof that either Bret, Vince, or someone close to either has fully admitted that it was a work. It's in no way comparable to the Kaufman/Lawler series. By that suggestion, how many of you who think that Montreal was a work still think Andy Kaufman is alive, or that we never went to the moon? I'm not saying that I'm willing to swallow whatever is fed to me, I'm saying that employing a bit of common sense in these situations would really keep the fire at a minimum and stop these silly conspiracy theories from becoming rumor. I hate arguments like this. At no time did you bring up any persuasive evidence to support your opinion. All you did was talk down to those that disagree with you. Like I said before, I think it was probably real but I don't think it's stupid to think something in wrestling might be a work. I think so many people believe it that they don't want to admit that it might be a work, because they think that would mean they could be worked by pro wrestling and it would wound their egotistical feelings of superiority.
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Post by Throwback on Nov 19, 2007 10:01:18 GMT -5
anyone find it strange that the wwe has been bringing it up lately?
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Post by jcdenton on Nov 19, 2007 10:55:10 GMT -5
IF IT WAS a work, why would bret let it basically touch off the self destruction of his entire family?
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Hiroshi Hase
Patti Mayonnaise
The Good Ol' Days
Posts: 30,755
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Post by Hiroshi Hase on Nov 19, 2007 10:58:28 GMT -5
IF IT WAS a work, why would bret let it basically touch off the self destruction of his entire family? Could you elaborate on that? I'm not sure I understand what you are referring to.
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General Zod
Samurai Cop
KNEEL!
KNEEL BEFORE ZOD!!
Posts: 2,163
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Post by General Zod on Nov 19, 2007 11:02:21 GMT -5
He bought the company from who? His father? Sounds like proper circumstance to me. He was offered the company because he dropped from the crotch of a McMahon - not because he was any great promotional genius. Secondly, there is nothing "shrewd" about buying your competition and tossing oodles of dollars at young cable networks eager to make a buck off the youth of America, and willing to listen to anyone that they think can help them reach that goal. He changed the face of the entire industry, allright. Just look at my sig for proof of that. He is, as I suggested earlier, a product of his environment, and extremely lucky. Gerald Briscoe, is that you? I'm old enough to remember it too. He didn't *have* to change the environment. But he did anyway because he's a greedy, manipulative megalomaniac, bent on being a dominant force in a market where there was (and I quote) "enough of the pie for everyone to share." What a nice guy. Yes it did, but not in the manner which you're trying to explain. First of all, Bischoff had the stroke to do f*** all with Bret Hart or the WWE title. The WWE title was devalued long before Bischoff entered the picture. And even if the first two weren't the case, what makes you think that Bret Hart, who was told to go to Turner because Vince had no money, had any interest in helping Vince put "thousands" of people out of work at WCW? Especially when you try to relate that the WWE *almost* went under? Is that not the very letter of hypocrisy? It's OK for Vince to put out "thousands" of workers, but if WCW tanked (and Bret Hart along with it), then, "oh well"? That's just the way the cookie crumbles, right? It's not as if Vince McMahon had a hardon for WCW for almost 20 years anyway, right? Que sera, sera! Honestly... Business wise?? Made sense?? Come on! That was a last ditch effort to save a dying company. Regardless of what people like Gerald Briscoe and Jim Ross will tell you (both still employed by the WWE, I might add), the WWE succeeded for the same reason FOX News gets any ascernable ratings. Sensationalism and sex sells. Plus, as I suggested earlier, McMahon was *lucky* to have guys like Stone Cold, The Rock and HHH - genuinely talented guys - leading the path. If Bischoff had never fired Austin, do you really think the Attitude era would have worked with anyone else in his place? Sorry, but Stone Cold Val Venis just doesn't have the same ring to it. McMahon was lucky. Vince McMahon is far from being a genius. I assure you.
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Post by jcdenton on Nov 19, 2007 11:06:53 GMT -5
IF IT WAS a work, why would bret let it basically touch off the self destruction of his entire family? Could you elaborate on that? I'm not sure I understand what you are referring to. Well, think about it, All of bret's Famely wanted out of WWF after that, only Jim and Bulldog, and they had to pay around 100,000 each to get out, owen was simply not aloued to go. Bulldog goes to WCW where his lower spine gets crushed on Warrior's warp pad, is Goes back to WWE where hes turned into a generic power wrestler, released, and dies of a heart attack brought on from his many drug abuses and injories. Owen, being forced to stay in WWF dies when doing a hugely Dangerous stunt. The family now, fractures under the stress, with divorces, name calling, and hated. It was suspected Helen Hart died no small part due to the sadness of seeing her famely fall apart.
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Hiroshi Hase
Patti Mayonnaise
The Good Ol' Days
Posts: 30,755
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Post by Hiroshi Hase on Nov 19, 2007 11:07:54 GMT -5
Could you elaborate on that? I'm not sure I understand what you are referring to. Well, think about it, All of bret's Famely wanted out of WWF after that, only Jim and Bulldog, and they had to pay around 100,000 each to get out, owen was simply not aloued to go. Bulldog goes to WCW where his lower spine gets crushed on Warrior's warp pad, is Goes back to WWE where hes turned into a generic power wrestler, released, and dies of a heart attack brought on from his many drug abuses and injories. Owen, being forced to stay in WWF dies when doing a hugely Dangerous stunt. The family now, fractures under the stress, with divorces, name calling, and hated. It was suspected Helen Hart died no small part due to the sadness of seeing her famely fall apart. But that was circumstancial, it's not as if Bulldog and Owen could see into the future and know that they would die those deaths.
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