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Post by Kash Flagg on Feb 20, 2008 8:34:57 GMT -5
The issue with Hayes, especially once wrestling became more about WCW and WWF than any of the indies no matter how succesful they were "back in the day" the more history moves away from the 80's the less they'll see World Class, Mid South or any of the other Indies and their top stars considered on the same par as what WWF and NWA/Turner was doing at the time. I compare Zbyszko to hayes where he had a big run with the top star of a company and mild mid card success in the early reaches of WCW. His AWA stint I really could haev cared less about, that promotion was dead by the time Larry was champ. I'm shocked you'd think Verne Gagne would ever put over a member of his family though. He couldn't get Greg a world title run though lol. I can see the comparison you're making there, and agree with some of it. A lot of the fans today don't see these former promotions as equals, but some of us "old timers" (and I use that loosely) still remember. I think Hayes' runs in World Class and Mid South, and even some of his time in Crockett when he was feuding with Luger over the US title could be equal to Larry Z's output (though I disagree slightly). I think the Freebird's influence on wrestlers today would be the thing that pushes him ahead of Larry. No offense to Larry, who was a solid ring performer, but I don't think many guys modeled themselves after him.
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Hiroshi Hase
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The Good Ol' Days
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Post by Hiroshi Hase on Feb 20, 2008 8:35:39 GMT -5
I don't know much about his AWA days, but I know Zybzsko was over like crazy during the WCW/NWO feud.
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Post by Kash Flagg on Feb 20, 2008 8:37:24 GMT -5
I don't know much about his AWA days, but I know Zybzsko was over like crazy during the WCW/NWO feud. Why I don't know, but yeah he was.
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Hiroshi Hase
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The Good Ol' Days
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Post by Hiroshi Hase on Feb 20, 2008 8:40:13 GMT -5
I don't know much about his AWA days, but I know Zybzsko was over like crazy during the WCW/NWO feud. Why I don't know, but yeah he was. I'm not quite sure either, maybe because he was the only announcer to stand up to the nWo. He also helped out with Hall's debut, as it was his idea to have Hall come out through the crowd, as Bischoff wanted Hall to come down the aisle originally.
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Post by DrBackflipsHoffman on Feb 20, 2008 8:41:43 GMT -5
Speaking of this doc, i was dissapointed by the choice of matches a little bit, no singles David Von Erich, No Gino Hernandez and a poor choice of Brody vs. Abdullah. Though i can understand they wanted to get all the names they talked about into the DVD which can be the only possible explanation for that Kabuki vs. Kamala match.
It's good to have some WCCW in pristine DVD quality though because every single WCCW tape i've ever owned or traded back when that business was still active, they've always been pretty poor quality.
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Mac
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Post by Mac on Feb 20, 2008 8:46:25 GMT -5
I always thought of Larry Zbyszko as some kind of Wall Street stock broker. He didn't look much like a wrestler. but had the blow-dried Gordon Gecko hair.
I liked his work with Arn Anderson as a tag team, I think they worked well together. Never got why fans were behind him in the nWo thing.
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Post by tinaturner on Feb 20, 2008 8:47:27 GMT -5
Scott Hall namechecked the Freebirds a lot when he discussed the creation of the NWO, saying how the Image and mindset was a direct link to how the Badstreet lads did things.
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Post by Kash Flagg on Feb 20, 2008 8:49:09 GMT -5
Scott Hall namechecked the Freebirds a lot when he discussed the creation of the NWO, saying how the Image and mindset was a direct link to how the Badstreet lads did things. Yeah, how the Wolfpack was suppose to just be the three of them (Nash, Hall, Waltman) like the Birds.
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rra
King Koopa
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Post by rra on Feb 20, 2008 9:49:29 GMT -5
Jeesh. This guy is a total mark for himself. If you guys have had a chance to watch the WWE 24/7 Legends of wrestling shows hosted by Ross or watch the WCCW dvd. You will know what im talking about. This guy acts like he is on hogan level drawing. He thinks he was the draw for world class. When it reality it was the von erichs. This jerk is so full of himself. How long was actually in the business? I dont remember him making a much of a splash in NY for any long period of time. He couldnt work a lick in the ring. Just had some decent mic skills and was a big loudmouth. It was Gordy and Roberts who carried the workload. Yup......and the Hardys' biggest ally.
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KLRA
El Dandy
Halt. I am Reptar.
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Post by KLRA on Feb 20, 2008 9:55:24 GMT -5
Yeah, Hayes wasn't the biggest star, but his influence on wrestling can't be denied, as he has contributed so much to the industry at this point it can't be measured.
Hell, you wouldn't have any of the classic Mick Foley promos if it wasn't for Hayes, who has taught many a person how to properly give one.
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segaz
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Post by segaz on Feb 20, 2008 10:01:14 GMT -5
Hayes' commentary during the HBK/Razor ladder match at SummerSlam '95 might be in the top 5 for worst announcing ever...."c'mon Shawn! c'mon Razor! I don't care who wins this is just fantastic"....He was so over the top it was absolutely sickening. At least the old Baltimore Colt geezer who did King of the Ring '94 was somewhat funny. Yeah I never really liked him on the mic either.
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Squirrel Master
Hank Scorpio
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Post by Squirrel Master on Feb 20, 2008 10:08:26 GMT -5
The Freebirds were hellraising southern rebels and they were damn good at it too. Hayes has been in the business since the mid to late 70's (as a teen) so I think he's been around the block. Too true. I was flipping TV channels in October 1985 and paused to watch the AWA. ...Ahh, wrestling, I remember this from my childhood! On screen was a drunken Michael Hayes CALLING OUT the Road Warriors, followed by a neat video package of Freebirds/ L.O.D. brawls. I thought, wow, this Michael Hayes has balls! And I've been watching the product ever since.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2008 13:32:21 GMT -5
I think an apt comparison of another wrestler on the same level as Michael Hayes would be Larry Zbyszko. Whos overinflated sense of self importance to the industry was a little off putting at times. While he's got his place in history he was never as great as he thought he was. The Von Erichs v. Adams/Hernandez/Roberts etc sold better than the Von Erichs v. The Birds First I wanna thank Natch Moranis for bringing up the mid South stuff. I had completely forgotten about that and amend my thoughts about him being a couple rungs below the Hogans and Flairs. I think he has a right to be that egotistical to a point, moreso than say Larry Z or Jerry Brisco. Larry was handed the AWA title because of his marriage to Verne's daughter, and outside of his early feud with Bruno, didn't make a real impact anywhere. Brisco just pisses me off. Jack Brisco has every right to have an ego, being one of the best NWA champs ever...Jerry or Gerald or whatever doesn't. Other than being a stooge and helping screw Ole Anderson out of the Georgia area, he's really done nothing of note. And you think the Brisco Body Shop is nothing of note. This is a good discussion, let me add. Well, in Larry's defense, they always had a way of throwing him in the semi-main events, as even the feud with Bruno did make him a big fish in the small pond that was the AWA. Your champions, Rick Martel or Stan Hansen, would be wrestling the top guy, and there's Larry scrapping with Sgt. Slaughter and Greg Gagne, or splitting Bockwinkel's head open with nunchuks. He may have been average in the ring, but he did draw a lot of heat ripping on "Old Man Gagne" or Curt Hennig's dad. Larry was the original "Legend Killer", more than likely because the average age of the AWA competitors was about 60. The difference between Larry and, let's say, Buddy Landell is Larry wins matches. That's what pisses the fans off even more; it may be unethical how he wins, but he does, drawing heat even more. If Larry didn't win, he'd be like Buddy Landell, just running his mouth to a few catcalls and his matches would be an excuse to use the toilet. Hayes can talk about drawing big crowds because your top guy is only as good as his top opponent. Roddy Piper stated the truth when he told Hogan "you wouldn't be the star you were if you didn't have somebody like me on the other side". People paid to see Hayes and his group get their ass kicked. They hated the Freebirds as much as they loved the Von Erichs. That's the fact. Drawing my point from above, if the Freebirds never won, then there would be no reason to visit Dallas and watch these two teams go at it. The Freebirds would find a way to cheat to win (or get DQed), and that enraged the Von Erich lovers. So, you come back next Friday night to see a new twist to the feud. Fans paid their $5 (or whatever it cost in the early-80s) to see it again. That's how you make money. It's not like Hayes is pulling a Greg Valentine. If you seen Greg on talk shows over the past couple of years (and actually listened to him speak), you'd think he drew the sell-out at WrestleMania and those guys Hogan and Piper were just along for the ride. Yes, I'm serious. Hayes can boast, to a point. Larry Z can boast, to a point. Greg Valentine can keep quiet.
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Post by kwydjebo on Feb 20, 2008 13:37:20 GMT -5
As for His cotribution...I think the Freebirds were pretty huge in the 80s, sure they were no VonErichs or Horsemen, but back in those days they were hot. Did they revolutionize anything? No clue, never saw them much (I was a fan in the 80s but only WWF product was available up here regularly, so a lot of my knowledge from that period is courtesy of Apter Mags at the time), they did get a brief cameo in teh first Highlander film.....you know the good one. What has he done since? Well he acted like a complete tool for years as announcer "Dok Hendrix"...the very opposite of cool, so if there is any back office love for him it might be in the form of "Thanks for accepting this regular paychecque in return for any pride you might have had". Now I don't get WWE 24/7 but I ask this question, when he's getting all full of himself these days, is he serious or is he just working in the PS Hayes character? He's old school, so he may not be a fan of Breaing Kayfabe....and perhaps the fact that we have such discussions is proof he's still got it.....
Just my 2 cents (Sorry I didn't read the whole thread so if any of what I said was already mentioned, I apologise)
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Mac
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Post by Mac on Feb 20, 2008 13:44:40 GMT -5
I'd love to hear Valentine prop himself up as a draw, that'd be great.
I want to hear from somebody who actually marked for Larry the announcer being an intrical part of the nWO storyline. My question is why?
AWA Title was just a name. It had prestige from years that went by, but by the time Larry held it he was competing against losers and nobodies like Tommy Jammer,Jake Milliman, Greg Gagne and Derrik Dukes in an empty warehouse. When you compete in front of no fans and draw 1500 to you "SUPERCLASH" you're a horrible organization that nobody wants to see.
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Hiroshi Hase
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Post by Hiroshi Hase on Feb 20, 2008 13:47:17 GMT -5
I'd love to hear Valentine prop himself up as a draw, that'd be great. I want to hear from somebody who actually marked for Larry the announcer being an intrical part of the nWO storyline. My question is why? AWA Title was just a name. It had prestige from years that went by, but by the time Larry held it he was competing against losers and nobodies like Tommy Jammer,Jake Milliman, Greg Gagne and Derrik Dukes in an empty warehouse. When you compete in front of no fans and draw 1500 to you "SUPERCLASH" you're a horrible organization that nobody wants to see. I don't mind telling you I marked for him, because whenever the nWo would storm the set he'd stay and get into it with Hall nearly every time. Marked huge for it, but of course not everyone will, so if you don't that's alright as well.
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Mac
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Post by Mac on Feb 20, 2008 13:50:34 GMT -5
I'd love to hear Valentine prop himself up as a draw, that'd be great. I want to hear from somebody who actually marked for Larry the announcer being an intrical part of the nWO storyline. My question is why? AWA Title was just a name. It had prestige from years that went by, but by the time Larry held it he was competing against losers and nobodies like Tommy Jammer,Jake Milliman, Greg Gagne and Derrik Dukes in an empty warehouse. When you compete in front of no fans and draw 1500 to you "SUPERCLASH" you're a horrible organization that nobody wants to see. I don't mind telling you I marked for him, because whenever the nWo would storm the set he'd stay and get into it with Hall nearly every time. Marked huge for it, but of course not everyone will, so if you don't that's alright as well. Never said it was stupid, I just didn't get it. Still don't even with your explanation. I like the idea of a former wrestler coming in and standing up against the nWo, but I always saw Zybc#$zko as such a zilch.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2008 13:52:25 GMT -5
Which is why, when I mentioned Larry Zbyszko in my post, I was talking more about his peak draw in the mid-80s rather than that atrocity that was the Zbyszko AWA title reign.
Larry was the reliable heel to carry a semi-main event. They even had him take on Scott LeDoux, a constant "special referee"/former boxer Verne tried to push as something special. Larry made it work.
Larry had a bit where he was a student of karate, and brought in constant jobber Ninja Go as his second. The wrestlers would kick Ninja's ass easily, then Larry would blindside them with his nunchuk skills. (Forgive the spelling, but even spell check has no idea what I'm talking about.)
You didn't even need a World title match on these shows, Larry Z vs. Greg Gagne or Curt Hennig would be a draw in itself.
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Mac
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Post by Mac on Feb 20, 2008 13:58:59 GMT -5
Which is why, when I mentioned Larry Zbyszko in my post, I was talking more about his peak draw in the mid-80s rather than that atrocity that was the Zbyszko AWA title reign. Larry was the reliable heel to carry a semi-main event. They even had him take on Scott LeDoux, a constant "special referee"/former boxer Verne tried to push as something special. Larry made it work. Larry had a bit where he was a student of karate, and brought in constant jobber Ninja Go as his second. The wrestlers would kick Ninja's ass easily, then Larry would blindside them with his nunchuk skills. (Forgive the spelling, but even spell check has no idea what I'm talking about.) You didn't even need a World title match on these shows, Larry Z vs. Greg Gagne or Curt Hennig would be a draw in itself. Yeah Wrestlerock 86 or 87 or sometime around then. I'll have to take your word for how good/bad Larry was as a draw since I was too young to really understand any of the intracacies that go into character development and/or how "over" a guy actually is. SELF EDIT: Out of curiosity I looked up that show. It was Wrestlerock 86". 22,000 fans estimated, not bad. But outside of the Larry/LeDoux match you have to admit that show was pretty stacked with talent for 1986 up and down the roster. Take out the fact Verne was nice enough to book himself in the Main Event and his son in the sub-Main, but the rest of the card looked strong.
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Hiroshi Hase
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Post by Hiroshi Hase on Feb 20, 2008 14:04:48 GMT -5
I don't mind telling you I marked for him, because whenever the nWo would storm the set he'd stay and get into it with Hall nearly every time. Marked huge for it, but of course not everyone will, so if you don't that's alright as well. Never said it was stupid, I just didn't get it. Still don't even with your explanation. I like the idea of a former wrestler coming in and standing up against the nWo, but I always saw Zybc#$zko as such a zilch. I never you said that you said it was stupid, you were wondering who marked for him and I answered it that was it. Most people seemed to really mark for him during that era, but of course not everyone will.
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