Full Moon
Mephisto
"How ya doin' Dave?"
Posts: 733
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Post by Full Moon on Aug 19, 2008 10:40:01 GMT -5
YEAH, that guy. Talk about obscure. OK well all these attempts to be sarcastic and smarky are doing nothing but showing you've missed my point. To compare the debut of Rocky Maivia to that of these recent new guys shows complete ignorance. Maivia's debut was the stuff rookies dream about. WWF spent the entire summer introducing him, discussing his heritage, showing him training and working out. He debuted at one of the biggest PPVS of the year in Madison Square Garden with a custom made entrance theme, costume and look. He had his own finisher and actually won the match for this team. He then went onto to a big push and was labelled a "Blue Chipper". Somehow I'd consider that a fantastic build up, a well constructed character, an excellent platform to launch somebody's career.
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Post by The Tank on Aug 19, 2008 10:41:38 GMT -5
YEAH, that guy. Talk about obscure. OK well all these attempts to be sarcastic and smarky are doing nothing but showing you've missed my point. To compare the debut of Rocky Maivia to that of these recent new guys shows complete ignorance. Maivia's debut was the stuff rookies dream about. WWF spent the entire summer introducing him, discussing his heritage, showing him training and working out. He debuted at one of the biggest PPVS of the year in Madison Square Garden with a custom made entrance theme, costume and look. He had his own finisher and actually won the match for this team. He then went onto to a big push and was labelled a "Blue Chipper". Somehow I'd consider that a fantastic build up, a well constructed character, an excellent platform to launch somebody's career. Dude, we're just screwing around. You have to remember, Spanky's the biggest CHIKARA mark on the board. Therefore, he's a dumbass. But, I totally see where you're coming from. But, the fact that the crowd tore Rocky Maivia apart kind of made that great debut pointless.
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Post by Spankymac is sick of the swiss on Aug 19, 2008 10:43:16 GMT -5
YEAH, that guy. Talk about obscure. OK well all these attempts to be sarcastic and smarky are doing nothing but showing you've missed my point. To compare the debut of Rocky Maivia to that of these recent new guys shows complete ignorance. Maivia's debut was the stuff rookies dream about. WWF spent the entire summer introducing him, discussing his heritage, showing him training and working out. He debuted at one of the biggest PPVS of the year in Madison Square Garden with a custom made entrance theme, costume and look. He had his own finisher and actually won the match for this team. He then went onto to a big push and was labelled a "Blue Chipper". Somehow I'd consider that a fantastic build up, a well constructed character, an excellent platform to launch somebody's career. But here's the twist. For all of that build, for all of that hype, for all of that building the "next big thing" that was gonna be Rocky Miavia, he WAS NOT over until he drastically overhauled his character into a heel. The Rocky they promoted got turned on so quickly it made there heads spin. All of that promotion was, theoretically, a complete waste of their time, because all it resulted in was the crowds hating this smiling geek being shoved down their throats. Big hype and promos and all that garbage is great, but it's not necessary to build a successful career.
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Post by Cyno on Aug 19, 2008 10:46:11 GMT -5
If these boys were debuting in 1998 when Russo was around, they would've come in with great gimmicks to get over immediately. The unknown Andrew Martin debuted as "Test", a former violent bodyguard of Motley Crue. The unknown Adam Copeland debuted as "Edge", a gothic tortured soul with a mysterious connection to Gangrel. The unknown Sean Morley debuted as "Val Venis", outrageous porn star. Three instantly over, credible superstars. And all unknown newcomers. ...Well, one out of three ain't bad, I guess.
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Full Moon
Mephisto
"How ya doin' Dave?"
Posts: 733
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Post by Full Moon on Aug 19, 2008 10:46:13 GMT -5
OK well all these attempts to be sarcastic and smarky are doing nothing but showing you've missed my point. To compare the debut of Rocky Maivia to that of these recent new guys shows complete ignorance. Maivia's debut was the stuff rookies dream about. WWF spent the entire summer introducing him, discussing his heritage, showing him training and working out. He debuted at one of the biggest PPVS of the year in Madison Square Garden with a custom made entrance theme, costume and look. He had his own finisher and actually won the match for this team. He then went onto to a big push and was labelled a "Blue Chipper". Somehow I'd consider that a fantastic build up, a well constructed character, an excellent platform to launch somebody's career. Dude, we're just screwing around. You have to remember, Spanky's the biggest CHIKARA mark on the board. Therefore, he's a dumbass. But, I totally see where you're coming from. But, the fact that the crowd tore Rocky Maivia apart kind of made that great debut pointless. Very true, my friend. I just think it doesn't hurt WWE's chances of making money by building new stars if you give those wrestlers a gimmick, a look or something to work with right off the bat. I used Test, Venis and Edge before as examples. You could also say Undertaker, Kane, HHH, Razor Ramon, Diesel, etc, who were all launched by either vignettes or associations. And although the likes of Nathan Jones, Mordecai and Sean O'Haire never went anywhere, at least their vignettes made for damn good television until they arrived. Zeek is already one step ahead by being associated with Kendrick. Sure, Cena debuted with no fanfare and look at him. And he most likely would've been unsuccessful and let go until he stumbled on the "rap gimmick". That is what launched him - the whole thuganomics thing. The "Good kid in the green shorts" most likely wouldn''t have gone anywhere. Maybe it's also a numbers thing. I don't remember another time in WWE history when so many newbies all arrived at one time. I was watching Smackdown with my girlfriend and I don't think I've ever heard her say "Who's that guy" so many times in one show.
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Post by The Tank on Aug 19, 2008 10:54:44 GMT -5
Dude, we're just screwing around. You have to remember, Spanky's the biggest CHIKARA mark on the board. Therefore, he's a dumbass. But, I totally see where you're coming from. But, the fact that the crowd tore Rocky Maivia apart kind of made that great debut pointless. Very true, my friend. I just think it doesn't hurt WWE's chances of making money by building new stars if you give those wrestlers a gimmick, a look or something to work with right off the bat. I used Test, Venis and Edge before as examples. You could also say Undertaker, Kane, HHH, Razor Ramon, Diesel, etc, who were all launched by either vignettes or associations. And although the likes of Nathan Jones, Mordecai and Sean O'Haire never went anywhere, at least their vignettes made for damn good television until they arrived.Zeek is already one step ahead by being associated with Kendrick. Sure, Cena debuted with no fanfare and look at him. And he most likely would've been unsuccessful and let go until he stumbled on the "rap gimmick". That is what launched him - the whole thuganomics thing. The "Good kid in the green shorts" most likely wouldn''t have gone anywhere. Maybe it's also a numbers thing. I don't remember another time in WWE history when so many newbies all arrived at one time. I was watching Smackdown with my girlfriend and I don't think I've ever heard her say "Who's that guy" so many times in one show. Well, you're not telling me anything...that I don't already know. But, you're right. Cena would be nowhere without the rap gimmick. And yea, a lot of new guys are coming in right now. I think Ryan Riddick (SERIOUSLY: Who was that?) is the first time someone asked me during the show "Who is that?" and I honestly didn't know.
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Tapout
Hank Scorpio
WWE Creative(TM)
W.W.W.Y.K.I.
Posts: 6,919
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Post by Tapout on Aug 19, 2008 10:56:33 GMT -5
Seriously, what's with the floodgates opening and WWE turning into a farmyard for green, underdeveloped newbies with no charisma, gimmicks or personalities, and costumes that look like they came from HighSpots. Braden Walker...Primo Colon...Scotty Goldman...Ryan Reddick...Evan Bourne...Ricky Ortiz. No to mention other "I escaped the cut" talents like Kenny Dykstra, Funaki, Jamie Noble, Bam Neely, and D-Lo. These are the kind of action figures I expect to see sitting on WalMart shelves for the next year to come. I mean, am I watching Raw and Smackdown - the two elite TV shows from the premier wrestling organization in the world - or a TV taping of FMW?? At least give them "Ron Killings" style intros so that we can get to know them, or gimmicks, or a sweet entrance. ANYTHING. If these boys were debuting in 1998 when Russo was around, they would've come in with great gimmicks to get over immediately. The unknown Andrew Martin debuted as "Test", a former violent bodyguard of Motley Crue. The unknown Adam Copeland debuted as "Edge", a gothic tortured soul with a mysterious connection to Gangrel. The unknown Sean Morley debuted as "Val Venis", outrageous porn star. Three instantly over, credible superstars. And all unknown newcomers. Do you get what I'm saying? I wish WWE would stop being so creatively lazy and give these guys a chance instead of making them look, act and feel like jobbers. You're making way too many sweeping generalizations that are flat-out wrong. Evan Bourne/Matt Sydal is getting over and he's an excellent worker, a high flyer that the company is actually allowing to do highspots. Colt Cabana aka Scotty Goldman is also a great worker and very, very entertaining guy with a lot of potential. Jamie Noble is a fantastic worker and a road agent who helps book matches. His size makes it hard to book him into credible programs with most of the 250-pound guys on the roster, but he's great in the ring and very entertaining.
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Post by The Genesis of KoOS on Aug 19, 2008 10:59:35 GMT -5
Ryan Reddick?
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Post by The Tank on Aug 19, 2008 11:01:39 GMT -5
He jobbed to Big Show on Friday. And nobody will tell me who he is!!!
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Chainsaw
T
A very BAD man.
It is what it is
Posts: 90,480
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Post by Chainsaw on Aug 19, 2008 11:08:20 GMT -5
I will agree with one point. It seems like a lot of guys are lacking character when they debut. It just seems like a lot of guys now just show up, go "Hi, I'm here to wrestle", and then get jobbed out. But I can appreciate WWE wanting to take the time to develop characters for them. Only problem is, the characters they have been developing has been crapped on for the most part. We already had 2, count 'em, 2 threads about people being unimpressed with Colt Cabana, the only guy with an established gimmick that's being brought over, after about 4 minutes of screen time. People are finnicky with their characters.
It's early in the process, but honestly, a lot of these new guys haven't impressed me that much...but I guess that's kind of the point.
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Post by Sumbody Gon' Get Dey Kneelift on Aug 19, 2008 11:12:43 GMT -5
Scotty Goldman and Jamie Noble sort of got something almost.
And D'Lo Brown got to scream GET TA STEPPIN' on national television.
But otherwise, yeah.
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azz0r
Dennis Stamp
Ex 4 month ruling Wrestlecrap PPV Prediction Champion
Posts: 3,696
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Post by azz0r on Aug 19, 2008 11:27:00 GMT -5
Unfortunately its not possible to bring in new talent as over and as worthy as Stone Cold at his peak :rolleyes:
How else do you expect them to debut people.
GOOD GOD.
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Post by strykerdarksilence on Aug 19, 2008 11:30:36 GMT -5
I agree on principle, except for Funaki and Noble.
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Full Moon
Mephisto
"How ya doin' Dave?"
Posts: 733
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Post by Full Moon on Aug 19, 2008 11:31:09 GMT -5
Unfortunately its not possible to bring in new talent as over and as worthy as Stone Cold at his peak :rolleyes: How else do you expect them to debut people. GOOD GOD. Undertaker? Kane? Rocky Maivia? Val Venis? You read the thread, right? If the goal of WWE business it to entertain the fans, create stars and make money through ratings and merchandise, I'd say Braden Walker and Ryan Reddick's kind of starts aren't all that impressive when you compare it to how Edge and Christian got their starts.
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azz0r
Dennis Stamp
Ex 4 month ruling Wrestlecrap PPV Prediction Champion
Posts: 3,696
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Post by azz0r on Aug 19, 2008 11:35:14 GMT -5
Undertaker and Kane were part of storylines (not so much Taker, but he was a hired hand).
Val Venis and Rocky debuted as vanilla characters with small gimmicks, Rock progressed and made his gimmick. Val failed with his gimmick (he's why hes now a jobber).
Bam neely debuted as a bodyguard, much the same as Taker in away. Evan Bourne didn't need away to debut as "something" as he's so talented. Cody and Ted debuted as there fathers sons, so that gave them a hand.
Take Ortiz for example, he's debuted in much the same way the rock has. Randomly appears as a bland baby face with there charisma to build them.
Ortiz: Charismatic, doesn't need a Val Venis type gimmick. Branden: Sucked Evan Bourne: Doesn't need a gimmick. Bam Neely: Large angry looking bodyguard
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Post by Lenny: Smooth like Keith Stone on Aug 19, 2008 11:44:29 GMT -5
I think his name is Ryan Braddock actually. Likewise I agree with the original post that guys like Goldman and Braddock are presented as jobbers instead of having gimmicks, but honestly at this point I think they are supposed to be just jobbers. Sure they got entrances and Goldman even got to say something, but still I think their position is still that of jobbers. It's just that they are jobbers that we know instead of unknown enhancement talents. I am thinking that a couple weeks down the road, they will both start getting some small victories here and there and they will work their ways up the card.
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Post by The Tank on Aug 19, 2008 11:45:16 GMT -5
Val Venis and Rocky debuted as vanilla characters with small gimmicks, Rock progressed and made his gimmick. Val failed with his gimmick (he's why hes now a jobber). Val Venis didn't really fail with his gimmick. The problem is that WWE isn't allowed to (or won't let him) do the things that got him over in the first place. I think his name is Ryan Braddock actually. Well, whatever his name is, WHO IS HE?!?!
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Post by Spankymac is sick of the swiss on Aug 19, 2008 11:47:12 GMT -5
Val Venis and Rocky debuted as vanilla characters with small gimmicks, Rock progressed and made his gimmick. Val failed with his gimmick (he's why hes now a jobber). Val Venis didn't really fail with his gimmick. The problem is that WWE isn't allowed to (or won't let him) do the things that got him over in the first place. I think his name is Ryan Braddock actually. Well, whatever his name is, WHO IS HE?!?! Bradley Jay, aka Jay Bradley aka Brad Bradley.
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Post by The Tank on Aug 19, 2008 11:48:42 GMT -5
Val Venis didn't really fail with his gimmick. The problem is that WWE isn't allowed to (or won't let him) do the things that got him over in the first place. Well, whatever his name is, WHO IS HE?!?! Bradley Jay, aka Jay Bradley aka Brad Bradley. THAT was Jay Bradley? Weird, I heard good things about him. He looked like s***.
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Post by Lenny: Smooth like Keith Stone on Aug 19, 2008 11:49:39 GMT -5
Val Venis and Rocky debuted as vanilla characters with small gimmicks, Rock progressed and made his gimmick. Val failed with his gimmick (he's why hes now a jobber). Val Venis didn't really fail with his gimmick. The problem is that WWE isn't allowed to (or won't let him) do the things that got him over in the first place. I think his name is Ryan Braddock actually. Well, whatever his name is, WHO IS HE?!?! From the Smackdown results photo archive, here are a couple pictures of him getting killed by Big Show! www.wwe.com/shows/smackdown/photos/bigshowvsbraddock/
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