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Post by Gillberg: 0-175 on Aug 19, 2008 15:46:22 GMT -5
I think the point that the TC is trying to say is that back in the day guys used to come in and mean something. They weren't all the same bland tights, clean cut, "First Name Last Name" guys.
We had people like Edge, a goth troubled soul. We had Godfather (albeit he wasn't new) as a pimp. We had The Undertaker.
People used to debut with epic characters. These new debuts are just names associated with some character traits, if that. You can't rally behind a guy named Braden Walker, or Scott Goldman. Where's the umph? Where's the stage name? Where's the gimmick? Where's the "it" that makes us care?
All these new guys are all named the same, practically all look the same, and are as bland as the next one. Sure, there are some charasmatic standouts, but they still don't differenciate from one another. Which is the key to any movie/TV show, having different characters with different traits.
Who want's to watch Friends with all Joeys? You need the Monicas, the Rachels, the Rosses and the Chandlers to make it watchable.
WWE's new debuts makes each roster a show of all Joeys. And nobody wants to watch that.
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greeby
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 7,088
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Post by greeby on Aug 19, 2008 15:55:51 GMT -5
Of course, part of it has to do with the fact the E now just focuses on the three or four top guys, and leaves the rest of the card to flounder
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Canadian_HEAT
Tommy Wiseau
Bringin' the HEAT from Canada
Posts: 92
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Post by Canadian_HEAT on Aug 19, 2008 15:58:33 GMT -5
i agree with everything u said but as far as D'Lo goes what else can they do with the guy? They need to give him his 'stache back!
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Post by Loki on Aug 19, 2008 16:16:54 GMT -5
I see it this way:
a polished, groomed and hyped turd, is STILL a turd, no matter how hard you try to sell it as Swiss chocolate.
a piece of gold, albeit dirty, dusty and covered in mud, will end up shining. It may take a lot of work to make it shine, it may even not end up as shiny as it could have, but it'll become clear it's gold even under a huge coat of crap.
And the same goes for WWE Superstars.
We've seen many talented performers make it work with little material. Some others got their chances yet didn't manage to success as they could have (also due to their own mistakes), and we've seen a lot of mediocre guys receiving a push and then fizzling shortly after.
So I say, it doesn't even matter HOW they get introduced. If they're good and charismatic, they'll be fine. Otherwise not even an Hogan push would help them.
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Post by Spankymac is sick of the swiss on Aug 19, 2008 16:18:54 GMT -5
I see it this way: a polished, groomed and hyped turd, is STILL a turd, no matter how hard you try to sell it as Swiss chocolate. a piece of gold, albeit dirty, dusty and covered in mud, will end up shining. It may take a lot of work to make it shine, it may even not end up as shiny as it could have, but it'll become clear it's gold even under a huge coat of crap. And the same goes for WWE Superstars. We've seen many talented performers make it work with little material. Some others got their chances yet didn't manage to success as they could have (also due to their own mistakes), and we've seen a lot of mediocre guys receiving a push and then fizzling shortly after. So I say, it doesn't even matter HOW they get introduced. If they're good and charismatic, they'll be fine. Otherwise not even an Hogan push would help them. I rarely agree with Loki, but he's 100% right here. How they're introduced or pushed off the bat doesn't matter. Given a level playing field, the cream rises to the top.
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Full Moon
Mephisto
"How ya doin' Dave?"
Posts: 733
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Post by Full Moon on Aug 19, 2008 16:19:43 GMT -5
I see it this way: a polished, groomed and hyped turd, is STILL a turd, no matter how hard you try to sell it as Swiss chocolate. a piece of gold, albeit dirty, dusty and covered in mud, will end up shining. It may take a lot of work to make it shine, it may even not end up as shiny as it could have, but it'll become clear it's gold even under a huge coat of crap. And the same goes for WWE Superstars. We've seen many talented performers make it work with little material. Some others got their chances yet didn't manage to success as they could have (also due to their own mistakes), and we've seen a lot of mediocre guys receiving a push and then fizzling shortly after. So I say, it doesn't even matter HOW they get introduced. If they're good and charismatic, they'll be fine. Otherwise not even an Hogan push would help them. While that is true (Austin, Cena and Batista all came in with little to no fanfare while hyped monsters like Nathan Jones and Brakkus failed miserably), I still think for the sake of the fans entertainment and a creatively enjoyable show, that it wouldn't hurt to throw a gimmick or a personality into the mix once in a while. I just don't think this strategy of throwing 6-8 new "Generic name in generic costume with generic music" strategy is a good one.
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Push R Truth
Patti Mayonnaise
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Perpetually Constipated
Posts: 39,294
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Post by Push R Truth on Aug 19, 2008 16:24:59 GMT -5
I see it this way: a polished, groomed and hyped turd, is STILL a turd, no matter how hard you try to sell it as Swiss chocolate. a piece of gold, albeit dirty, dusty and covered in mud, will end up shining. It may take a lot of work to make it shine, it may even not end up as shiny as it could have, but it'll become clear it's gold even under a huge coat of crap. And the same goes for WWE Superstars. We've seen many talented performers make it work with little material. Some others got their chances yet didn't manage to success as they could have (also due to their own mistakes), and we've seen a lot of mediocre guys receiving a push and then fizzling shortly after. So I say, it doesn't even matter HOW they get introduced. If they're good and charismatic, they'll be fine. Otherwise not even an Hogan push would help them. While that is true (Austin, Cena and Batista all came in with little to no fanfare while hyped monsters like Nathan Jones and Brakkus failed miserably), I still think for the sake of the fans entertainment and a creatively enjoyable show, that it wouldn't hurt to throw a gimmick or a personality into the mix once in a while. I just don't think this strategy of throwing 6-8 new "Generic name in generic costume with generic music" strategy is a good one. But they are doing just that right now! Evan Bourne is a crazy high flyer that will defy gravity to achieve a victory! Ortiz is designing his own merchandise and trying to get Teddy Long to buy it and is already bragging about his awesome winning streak of like 2 matches. There are 2 guys with gimmicks that just got debuted. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's not there in front of you. I'll admit, they aren't super in-your-face gimmicks like a Zombie or another "Strongest Man", but they are much, much more then "I have a name and I want to wrestle!"
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Post by Loki on Aug 19, 2008 16:27:14 GMT -5
True, and I really REALLY despise the "John Doe" black trunks characters.
Too bad WWE have been distancing themselves from the "Gimmick Era" in the last decade. Even more after the demise of old-school kayfabe and with the awful Different Shades of Grey bullcrap, it has become almost impossible introducing Characters with a character...
Braden Walker may be "just a guy", but he's sorta believable. Had they debuted him as Braden "Black Death" Walker, a former metal guitarist, with facepaint, ax and the stereotypical metal attire, it would have been "debunked" in two seconds...
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Post by Metalheadbanger Man on Aug 19, 2008 17:16:48 GMT -5
From my viewpoint they are trying to give the new guys some semblage of personality without them having an out-and-out gimmick (except for Braden, who just got a horrible backstage segment and boring matches) - Ortiz is a guy with big ideas for himself, Bourne is a high-flyer out to prove he can hang with bigger guys, and Goldman/Cabana looks as if he'll continue his fun-loving 'wacky' mentality. I'm pleased at the new influx for the most part, even if more of them do need at least a couple of vignettes pre-debut.
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Post by eJm on Aug 19, 2008 17:40:51 GMT -5
I've been waiting for them to do something like they did for Cena when he debuted. Nobody knew who the smurf he was, but they put him against Kurt Angle and he held his own. That helped get him over big time. Not to mention that soon after, he had a PPV match with Chris Jericho. Which, may I add, he won.
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Post by cabbageboy on Aug 19, 2008 18:00:27 GMT -5
I think it is imperative that new guys debut with some sort of vignettes and then give them some solid wins out of the gate. Scotty Goldman and Ryan Braddock/Riddick/Whatever (Jay Bradley) got squashed out of the gate, so it's kinda hard to get a guy over. It's hard enough when you debut a guy and give him wins, like with Braden Walker.
Notice that CM Punk came in with some nice intro vignettes and got wins out of the gate...voila, he got over. Ron Killings has his video packages and if he gets some wins out of the gate, he'll get over.
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chairshotshurthead
ALF
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Posts: 1,100
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Post by chairshotshurthead on Aug 19, 2008 18:05:41 GMT -5
Seriously, what's with the floodgates opening and WWE turning into a farmyard for green, underdeveloped newbies with no charisma, gimmicks or personalities, and costumes that look like they came from HighSpots. Braden Walker...Primo Colon...Scotty Goldman...Ryan Reddick...Evan Bourne...Ricky Ortiz. No to mention other "I escaped the cut" talents like Kenny Dykstra, Funaki, Jamie Noble, Bam Neely, and D-Lo. These are the kind of action figures I expect to see sitting on WalMart shelves for the next year to come. I mean, am I watching Raw and Smackdown - the two elite TV shows from the premier wrestling organization in the world - or a TV taping of FMW?? At least give them "Ron Killings" style intros so that we can get to know them, or gimmicks, or a sweet entrance. ANYTHING. If these boys were debuting in 1998 when Russo was around, they would've come in with great gimmicks to get over immediately. The unknown Andrew Martin debuted as "Test", a former violent bodyguard of Motley Crue. The unknown Adam Copeland debuted as "Edge", a gothic tortured soul with a mysterious connection to Gangrel. The unknown Sean Morley debuted as "Val Venis", outrageous porn star. Three instantly over, credible superstars. And all unknown newcomers. Do you get what I'm saying? I wish WWE would stop being so creatively lazy and give these guys a chance instead of making them look, act and feel like jobbers. As many others have said, you have to build people to get them over, and moreover, they people you decide to build have gotta do something to warrant it. You don't get pushes just cause it's 'your turn', and you don't get over the instant you're out the door no f***ing matter who you are. Very few actually get 'over over', actually becoming a star people give a shit about and get emotionally invested in rather than just getting pops or being mildly interesting. None of the guys you mentioned have gotten 'over over' yet save for Edge, and that took him about 10 years since his WWE debut.
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Post by Loki on Aug 19, 2008 18:15:41 GMT -5
Seriously, what's with the floodgates opening and WWE turning into a farmyard for green, underdeveloped newbies with no charisma, gimmicks or personalities, and costumes that look like they came from HighSpots. Braden Walker...Primo Colon...Scotty Goldman...Ryan Reddick...Evan Bourne...Ricky Ortiz. No to mention other "I escaped the cut" talents like Kenny Dykstra, Funaki, Jamie Noble, Bam Neely, and D-Lo. These are the kind of action figures I expect to see sitting on WalMart shelves for the next year to come. I mean, am I watching Raw and Smackdown - the two elite TV shows from the premier wrestling organization in the world - or a TV taping of FMW?? At least give them "Ron Killings" style intros so that we can get to know them, or gimmicks, or a sweet entrance. ANYTHING. If these boys were debuting in 1998 when Russo was around, they would've come in with great gimmicks to get over immediately. The unknown Andrew Martin debuted as "Test", a former violent bodyguard of Motley Crue. The unknown Adam Copeland debuted as "Edge", a gothic tortured soul with a mysterious connection to Gangrel. The unknown Sean Morley debuted as "Val Venis", outrageous porn star. Three instantly over, credible superstars. And all unknown newcomers. Do you get what I'm saying? I wish WWE would stop being so creatively lazy and give these guys a chance instead of making them look, act and feel like jobbers. As many others have said, you have to build people to get them over, and moreover, they people you decide to build have gotta do something to warrant it. You don't get pushes just cause it's 'your turn', and you don't get over the instant you're out the door no smurfing matter who you are. Very few actually get 'over over', actually becoming a star people give a crap about and get emotionally invested in rather than just getting pops or being mildly interesting. None of the guys you mentioned have gotten 'over over' yet save for Edge, and that took him about 10 years since his WWE debut. I don't think he meant "over over" when he used Venis or Test as exapmles. He just said pretty much EVERY guy used to have some sort of "trait" that would help him getting recognized by the fans. The mileage and the "care-o-meter" of every performer wasn't the same, but it boiled down to several factors out of WWE's direct control. Edge has got himself over over over after almost a decade of hard work, good pushes and thanks to his charisma and ability to work with what he was given. Venis got as much as he could out of his pornstar gimmick, and he's now moderately over even as a resident jobber. He wasn't handpicked as future WWE Champ, so it's ok. Many others have been given gimmicks and pushes and didn't get over, simply because the crowd stopped caring/never cared (Carlito and Shelton say hi, Haas too) Gimmick =/= overness Personality (not the scripted one... the ability to click with the fans) = overness. The biggest example is Lex Luger: he got pretty much Hogan's gimmick and he lasted like 6 months, before getting outpopped by Bret Hart, a man who had no "actual" gimmick beside being himself and wearing pink shades
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The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
Posts: 37,304
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Post by The Ichi on Aug 19, 2008 18:34:07 GMT -5
I'm actually in 100% agreement with the OP here.
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Post by x on Aug 19, 2008 19:41:20 GMT -5
Ha. The original post says Colt Cabana is an underdeveloped newbie with no charisma. Close this thread.
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Post by Gillberg: 0-175 on Aug 19, 2008 20:20:41 GMT -5
I've been waiting for them to do something like they did for Cena when he debuted. Nobody knew who the smurf he was, but they put him against Kurt Angle and he held his own. That helped get him over big time. Not to mention that soon after, he had a PPV match with Chris Jericho. Which, may I add, he won. No, that didn't help him. He was worth SHIT until he became a rapper. Don't pull stats out and try to rewrite history. I remember him debuting. I remember it was horrible, even though he was placed against Taker (or tagged with him?) and Angle, he still had no stock until he found the quasi-edgy rapper gimmick. At the time though, he was just like Nathan Jones and Brock Lesnar. New generic looking guys thrown in with the big boys for no reason other than them being big. I think it is imperative that new guys debut with some sort of vignettes and then give them some solid wins out of the gate. Scotty Goldman and Ryan Braddock/Riddick/Whatever (Jay Bradley) got squashed out of the gate, so it's kinda hard to get a guy over. It's hard enough when you debut a guy and give him wins, like with Braden Walker. Notice that CM Punk came in with some nice intro vignettes and got wins out of the gate...voila, he got over. Ron Killings has his video packages and if he gets some wins out of the gate, he'll get over. Philly's old school ECW crowd got CM Punk over. Say what you want about the "smarky ECW crowd" but if it weren't for them knowing CM Punk beforehand, he wouldn't have gotten over. Sure, he cut good (but very short) vignettes, but he didn't do anything special to get him over IN THE FIRST MATCH. It was the ECW crowd that got him instantly over in WWE. You can't deny it. Ha. The original post says Colt Cabana is an underdeveloped newbie with no charisma. Close this thread. You're cool. As many others have said, you have to build people to get them over, and moreover, they people you decide to build have gotta do something to warrant it. You don't get pushes just cause it's 'your turn', and you don't get over the instant you're out the door no smurfing matter who you are. Very few actually get 'over over', actually becoming a star people give a crap about and get emotionally invested in rather than just getting pops or being mildly interesting. None of the guys you mentioned have gotten 'over over' yet save for Edge, and that took him about 10 years since his WWE debut. I don't think he meant "over over" when he used Venis or Test as exapmles. He just said pretty much EVERY guy used to have some sort of "trait" that would help him getting recognized by the fans. The mileage and the "care-o-meter" of every performer wasn't the same, but it boiled down to several factors out of WWE's direct control. Edge has got himself over over over after almost a decade of hard work, good pushes and thanks to his charisma and ability to work with what he was given. Venis got as much as he could out of his pornstar gimmick, and he's now moderately over even as a resident jobber. He wasn't handpicked as future WWE Champ, so it's ok. Many others have been given gimmicks and pushes and didn't get over, simply because the crowd stopped caring/never cared (Carlito and Shelton say hi, Haas too) Gimmick =/= overness Personality (not the scripted one... the ability to click with the fans) = overness. The biggest example is Lex Luger: he got pretty much Hogan's gimmick and he lasted like 6 months, before getting outpopped by Bret Hart, a man who had no "actual" gimmick beside being himself and wearing pink shades I think this says it best. The word "gimmick" is a very vague word when it comes to this argument. While yeah, these new guys have gimmicks, they don't have one in the sense that they don't look like a 'vanilla midget' with a singlet, or trunks, etc. Someone else gave the example of "Black Death" Braden Walker, heavy metal enthusiast. I think that would have gotten over better than Braden "Knock knock. Who's there?" Walker. Or at least it would have been fresher.
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