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Post by The Genesis of KoOS on Dec 27, 2008 15:23:22 GMT -5
i'm gonna make a strange comparison. i believe this is like Theatre/movies people will say the greatest actor of all time is say Will Smith or something because he is well known and his movies sell and are really enjoyable then some people will say the greatest actor is a person acting on-stage before an audience in a small town in england or something simply because he can act better then anyone they've ever seen... but no mainstream person has ever seen said guy before. so... what i'm saying is... because they're in the major promotions they're more likely to be chosen because more people have seen them. Danielson is definitely a great wrestler... but he's not my personal cup of tea. also for people who are saying he cant draw... i believe he sells out those ROH shows... and if your saying well he's not selling out 20000+ stadiums well... when was he given the chance? Until he gets the opportunity to sell out those 20000 arena's he can't be considered among the best. I think he's a talented guy, but he's got a lot more Chris Benoit (the performer) in him than Hulk Hogan. He caters to a niche audience, and under that particular subset of wrestling he's probably the best. But under the entire umbrella of pro wrestling, he's no where near the top. But at least Benoit was good enough to get over with the casual fans. |
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Post by MGH on Dec 27, 2008 15:29:13 GMT -5
Until he gets the opportunity to sell out those 20000 arena's he can't be considered among the best. I think he's a talented guy, but he's got a lot more Chris Benoit (the performer) in him than Hulk Hogan. He caters to a niche audience, and under that particular subset of wrestling he's probably the best. But under the entire umbrella of pro wrestling, he's no where near the top. But at least Benoit was good enough to get over with the casual fans. There's no proof that Dragon couldn't. If anything, those matches on Velocity and like he's done over the past few years had the crowd pretty in to them. He got reactions as the match went on. Maybe he would bomb, maybe he'd get Benoit over, who knows. There's a good chance this debate will never have a real resolution as it is. The guy has said in the past that while he absolutely loves this, he isn't sure about making it his lifelong career, and that while he is doing it he prefers to stay in places where he can work his 30-35 minute matches with build and have fun doing it. He loves this, but he loves it in the way where it's fun for him. He's turned down two chances in the past to join the WWE family, so while I still personally think he'll end up there next May or June, there's a chance he may never sign up. The guy is far from hard up for cash. He can afford to keep doing this "his way" should he choose. |
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Post by Andrew is Good on Dec 27, 2008 15:30:13 GMT -5
I think Shawn Michaels or William Regal would disagree here. It's important to realize as well, while many top indy guys haven't had the experience of working for the WWE (and WWE and NOAH are different crowds to draw towards as well), it's also important that many WWE guys get experience on the indies, and all over the world. Some do, like Ted Dibiase Jr, who if I'm correct is a world traveled wrestler. I remember reading William Regal talk about how it's best for guys to get worldly experience before coming in WWE.
Keep in mind that Dragon did have a WWE developmental contract at one time, and was released after HWA was cut off, along with a number of people. And with winning a dark match on Raw, and with two of his trainers in pretty lofty positions with the company, and with JR putting him over all the time, I'm pretty sure he has a job if he wants one.
And not only that, but Dragon does know how to work holds. It's not like Dragon is some guy trained by American Kickboxer or Daizee Haze. The guy's been trained by the best and the most experienced. And he's been working a good while. He's had the benefit of working a European style, a Mexican style, a Japanese style, and an American style. It's not like Dragon is some random indy guy who the net likes who in reality has no idea what he's doing. Dragon is a great worker.
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Joekishi
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,490
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Post by Joekishi on Dec 27, 2008 15:31:09 GMT -5
I really don't think he's the best in the world though.
I think he's good and he can possibly be a great mid-carder in WWE like Regal, Chavo, or other mainstays of the midcard.
I really think though WWE can make any guy they want into a main eventer, big or small.
I mean the Hardyz are champions right now, if Danielson can get himself a marketable look like Mysterio, HBK, the Hardyz, or Punk sure.
But right now, he's so bland
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Joekishi
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,490
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Post by Joekishi on Dec 27, 2008 15:38:42 GMT -5
I just have a thought of what is exactly considered "the big leagues." Danielson is a regular in Pro Wrestling NOAH (one of Japan's biggest companies) and has won one of their major titles. I'm not saying that WWE isn't the biggest game in the world, but Danielson's accomplishments in Japan are nothing to sniff at. Then on the indie/Japan scene I believe that Danielson is the tops. NOAH isn't the biggest company anymore though, it's doing less business than Dragon Gate is doing at the moment. Japan doesn't mean crap here in the states, just saying. How dare you compare the indies to Japan. No Seriously, they are not at the same level of importance at all. Mostly because guys work for years in the indies to get to Japan, not the other way around. I also know he worked for New Japan, but you know whatever. You can't go around throwing accolades like they mean something when they don't, and you can't equate ROH to someplace like New Japan because there's just too big a difference. When Low Ki works New Japan he's made it. When he goes to PWG it's special because he's a big deal in Japan. But that doesn't mean he would or wouldn't be great in WWE. |
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Post by rapidfire187 on Dec 27, 2008 15:39:12 GMT -5
He's definitely not the best in the world, but he has the potential to be.
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Joekishi
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,490
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Post by Joekishi on Dec 27, 2008 15:43:17 GMT -5
Really though, the guy has tons of unmarked potential.
I still believe that WWE can make ANYBODY a main eventer, as long as they have the spark.
I think Danielson has tons of potential to be great, but if he stays in the indies he won't reach it, I mean in japan he's only wrestling cruiserweights.
A match with somebody great like Nakamura would be out of the question, but I'd love to see him face off with Daisuke Sekimoto or Shuji Kondo
i'm also all for more of this guy in AAA, I think he'd do some great things with Billy Boy and Octogon
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Post by parder on Dec 27, 2008 15:47:04 GMT -5
I think as MGH and Andrew mention, the main reason Danielson isn't in WWE is mostly to do with Bryan Danielson himself. It's dilemma both to do with money and what he wants to do with his life.
The momey problem is a similar dilemma a lot of top indy/ROH guys have faced. The reason being that in the past he's only been offered a developmental contract, which would mean that unless creative got behind him quickly, he'd have to relocate to Tampa and take a huge pay cut for someone at his level who works for the number 3 wrestling promotion and can easily get himself booked anywhere in North American (outside of the big leagues), Europe, Mexico or Japan. WWE has made him an offer more than once, but he's turned it down because of this reason. Punk and Joe talk about it in their Straight Shootin' video. In the end both Punk and Colt Cabana are examples of those who took the offer, but if you contrast how they've done so far you can see what a dilemma it is. I think if they offered him a main roster contract or at least made promises to him that he would be on the main roster quickly (like guys from TNA) then there's a stronger chance he would be in WWE right now.
But that is dependent on the second dilemma of whether he would be able to showcase his style with other guys in WWE (a hybrid of Shawn Michaels and William Regal - his two biggest influences, with more probably more Regal than Shawn in there these days). I heard an interview with Regal where he said he'd love to bring Bryan in, and has spoken to him about it, but Bryan apparently says he doesn't want to so he can be the wrestler he wants to be. In ROH, NOAH, and elsewhere he's guaranteed long main event caliber matches where he can fully showcase himself. You don't always get that opportunity in WWE if that's not the creative direction Vince and the writers want to take you.
In any case, the quote just seems to good to be true in terms of the angle the article is running with. My hunch is that the 'anonymous source' thing is just PWI trying to mimic the dirt sheets to make it seem like an authentic shoot. They seem to have done quite well.
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The Line
Patti Mayonnaise
Real Name: Bumkiss. Stanley Bumkiss.
Peanut Butter & JAAAAAMMMM!
Posts: 36,698
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Post by The Line on Dec 27, 2008 15:54:17 GMT -5
man, someone in WWE is taking Bryan Danielson's gimmick way too seriously.
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Post by Robbymac on Dec 27, 2008 16:27:09 GMT -5
Until he gets the opportunity to sell out those 20000 arena's he can't be considered among the best. I think he's a talented guy, but he's got a lot more Chris Benoit (the performer) in him than Hulk Hogan. He caters to a niche audience, and under that particular subset of wrestling he's probably the best. But under the entire umbrella of pro wrestling, he's no where near the top. But at least Benoit was good enough to get over with the casual fans. There is a big difference between getting over with the casuals and becoming the biggest draw in the world. I have little doubt that Danielson would get over. I just don't think he'd ever become *the* guy in professional wrestling. |
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Slim Loves Lily
El Dandy
I'm gonna want the milksteak boiled over hard.
Posts: 8,983
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Post by Slim Loves Lily on Dec 27, 2008 16:35:21 GMT -5
Anyone who dislikes Danielson is a friend of mine.  |
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chairshotshurthead
ALF
Gerweck reports this man as truth.
REF!!! HE'S USING HYPNOSIS!!!
Posts: 1,100
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Post by chairshotshurthead on Dec 27, 2008 16:37:45 GMT -5
Can somebody tell these guys what a gimmick is?
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Post by Michael Coello on Dec 27, 2008 16:39:32 GMT -5
You can't be the best in the world when you look like Richie Cunningham and are twice as dull.
-Sinister1
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Post by jfpierce on Dec 27, 2008 16:58:32 GMT -5
Good wrestling is good wrestling whether it's in front of 20, 000, 2,000 or 2 people. There's a lot of factors that go into what a good match is for me, but what company it occurs in and the size of the crowd are just about the last factors I take into consideration for that. It makes sense for a guy in the business like Kevin Nash to say that whoever draws the most money is the best wrestler, but for someone outside, why should I care about that at all? I'm not even a huge Danielson fan, but the idea that if he went to the WWE he would become better simply because of where he was working doesn't make sense to me.
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chairshotshurthead
ALF
Gerweck reports this man as truth.
REF!!! HE'S USING HYPNOSIS!!!
Posts: 1,100
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Post by chairshotshurthead on Dec 27, 2008 17:02:17 GMT -5
Good wrestling is good wrestling whether it's in front of 20, 000, 2,000 or 2 people. There's a lot of factors that go into what a good match is for me, but what company it occurs in and the size of the crowd are just about the last factors I take into consideration for that. It makes sense for a guy in the business like Kevin Nash to say that whoever draws the most money is the best wrestler, but for someone outside, why should I care about that at all? I'm not even a huge Danielson fan, but the idea that if he went to the WWE he would become better simply because of where he was working doesn't make sense to me.That, plus the idea that he'd be better working a specific WWE style always. |
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Post by The Genesis of KoOS on Dec 27, 2008 17:02:48 GMT -5
Can somebody tell these guys what a gimmick is? Ha. With the way with his marks act, it would be hard pressed to say that they really don't think that. |
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KLRA
El Dandy
Halt. I am Reptar.
Posts: 7,591
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Post by KLRA on Dec 27, 2008 17:05:00 GMT -5
I just have a thought of what is exactly considered "the big leagues." Danielson is a regular in Pro Wrestling NOAH (one of Japan's biggest companies) and has won one of their major titles. I'm not saying that WWE isn't the biggest game in the world, but Danielson's accomplishments in Japan are nothing to sniff at. Then on the indie/Japan scene I believe that Danielson is the tops. NOAH isn't the biggest company anymore though, it's doing less business than Dragon Gate is doing at the moment. Japan doesn't mean crap here in the states, just saying. How dare you compare the indies to Japan. No Seriously, they are not at the same level of importance at all. Mostly because guys work for years in the indies to get to Japan, not the other way around. I also know he worked for New Japan, but you know whatever. You can't go around throwing accolades like they mean something when they don't, and you can't equate ROH to someplace like New Japan because there's just too big a difference. When Low Ki works New Japan he's made it. When he goes to PWG it's special because he's a big deal in Japan. But that doesn't mean he would or wouldn't be great in WWE. What I meant by my indies/Japan comment was wrestlers that continually work for Japan as well as the indie circuit in America. I can see where you missed that though. And I get exactly what you're saying. I was just a little too vauge, as I agree with what you are saying. Yeah WWE can make anyone they want into a superstar, and it's entirely possible with Danielson as well. The problem is (like many people have said) Danielson pretty much doesn't want it. |
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Joekishi
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,490
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Post by Joekishi on Dec 27, 2008 17:05:41 GMT -5
A lot of wrestlers become better due to WWE experience, mostly in selling themselves, and also in becoming show men. If they can't embrace that aspect then they are a lost cause..Braden walker
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Post by Robbymac on Dec 27, 2008 17:06:00 GMT -5
Good wrestling is good wrestling whether it's in front of 20, 000, 2,000 or 2 people. There's a lot of factors that go into what a good match is for me, but what company it occurs in and the size of the crowd are just about the last factors I take into consideration for that. It makes sense for a guy in the business like Kevin Nash to say that whoever draws the most money is the best wrestler, but for someone outside, why should I care about that at all? I'm not even a huge Danielson fan, but the idea that if he went to the WWE he would become better simply because of where he was working doesn't make sense to me. It shouldn't make a difference to you individually. To each is own. I'm sure there are people who think Great Khali is the best in the World. Everyone has their own tastes and their own factors that goes into who they like and who they don't. Thats all subjective. However when it comes down to "Who is the best in the world at being a professional wrestler" meaning, who draws the most as at the end of the day thats the name of the game the answer is CLEARLY John Cena. You'd have to go pretty far down the line before you'd find someone who isn't in WWE. |
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Post by lockedontarget on Dec 27, 2008 17:33:50 GMT -5
When people say he's the best wrestler in the world they mean he's the best WRESTLER in the world. Not the best draw, not the best entertainer, not the best character, not the most marketable...the best WRESTLER. Whoever's saying that he can't work a match is an idiot, he's one of the finest ring storytellers out there. John Cena is no doubt a bigger star, but that doesn't mean Bryan isn't a better WRESTLER than him just because he's not in the WWE. It's ridiculous to say that you can't be the best at something unless you're big in the mainstream. Are you telling me that if a guy in an indie band is an incredible guitarist, we can't say he's better than the guy in Nickelback because he's in an indie band? More fans does not equal better. John Cena is better at drawing a mainstream crowd than Bryan Danielson. That doesn't make him a better wrestler.
And quite frankly...no one can say he doesn't have the ability to draw in the mainstream because it's never been attempted. The man knows how to work a fantastic, dramatic match, and can hold his own on the mic. Who's to say that with a tweaked look and the right push he couldn't get over? He's already proved that he can be a massive indie draw. He very well could be made into a mainstream draw as well.
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