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Post by tap on Dec 27, 2008 17:47:18 GMT -5
A rhetorical point about whatever "the big leagues" are:
For those that say that WWE is the big leagues and Japan is not, using this discussion board as a cross section of a) an internet wrestling community of some stripe and b) a wrestling audience as a whole, how many posters do we have on here from Japan? It's obvious posters here take an interest in Japanese wrestling, but besides footage from overseas from WWE tapings or house shows, is there any way to quantify what number of Japanese WWE fans are there in relation to mainstream Japanese promotions?
Again, this is rhetorical, but if we still debate what the IWC is and what percentage of the American audience it constitutes, then wondering what success is, for whom, how, and where should be next to impossible. I wouldn't assume one way or the other.
And for the record, I don't mind Danielson, I'm a casual fan, so if he signs, great! I just hope he's used to the best of his ability. If he doesn't, I hope he has success and fun wherever he goes.
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Post by Robbymac on Dec 27, 2008 17:50:32 GMT -5
When people say he's the best wrestler in the world they mean he's the best WRESTLER in the world. Not the best draw, not the best entertainer, not the best character, not the most marketable...the best WRESTLER. Whoever's saying that he can't work a match is an idiot, he's one of the finest ring storytellers out there. John Cena is no doubt a bigger star, but that doesn't mean Bryan isn't a better WRESTLER than him just because he's not in the WWE. It's ridiculous to say that you can't be the best at something unless you're big in the mainstream. Are you telling me that if a guy in an indie band is an incredible guitarist, we can't say he's better than the guy in Nickelback because he's in an indie band? More fans does not equal better. John Cena is better at drawing a mainstream crowd than Bryan Danielson. That doesn't make him a better wrestler. And quite frankly...no one can say he doesn't have the ability to draw in the mainstream because it's never been attempted. The man knows how to work a fantastic, dramatic match, and can hold his own on the mic. Who's to say that with a tweaked look and the right push he couldn't get over? He's already proved that he can be a massive indie draw. He very well could be made into a mainstream draw as well. Well if we're using "wrestler" in the purest form of the word, the best in the world is someone like Brent Metcalf (google it kids). Now then if we're using "wrestler" in the term of professional wrestler, which is a completely fictional sport, then the best draw is the best. Thats the only purpose to what they are doing. They are entertainers and their number one goal is to get people to pay to see them perform. Now then Brian Danielson is not a bigger draw than John Cena, because it hasn't been attempted. Thats a true statement. You absolutely can say it. I might be a bigger draw than both of them, but no one has tried. If WWE signs Danielson, gives him a legit chance to get over, and he does get over in a massive way then I'll be happy to call him the best in the world. Until that happens, I'm still going with Cena. You can think Bryan Danielson is a better wrestler than John Cena. Hell I can even think he's a better wrestler than John Cena. But he certainly isn't better at being a professional wrestler than John Cena, if that makes sense. Just compare their bank statements.
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Post by Jared Jammer on Dec 27, 2008 17:51:00 GMT -5
I've never seen him wrestle as I wont sink any lower than TNA, but does this kid have a superstar personality that captures the fans attention and gives them reason to care whether he wins or loses? If not, he's nowhere near the best in the world.
All I know for certain is that his look is terrible. He's short, not particularly built, and, not to be crude, but a bit on the homely side.
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Post by Robbymac on Dec 27, 2008 17:52:39 GMT -5
A rhetorical point about whatever "the big leagues" are: For those that say that WWE is the big leagues and Japan is not, using this discussion board as a cross section of a) an internet wrestling community of some stripe and b) a wrestling audience as a whole, how many posters do we have on here from Japan? It's obvious posters here take an interest in Japanese wrestling, but besides footage from overseas from WWE tapings or house shows, is there any way to quantify what number of Japanese WWE fans are there in relation to mainstream Japanese promotions? Again, this is rhetorical, but if we still debate what the IWC is and what percentage of the American audience it constitutes, then wondering what success is, for whom, how, and where should be next to impossible. I wouldn't assume one way or the other. And for the record, I don't mind Danielson, I'm a casual fan, so if he signs, great! I just hope he's used to the best of his ability. If he doesn't, I hope he has success and fun wherever he goes. I would guess there is a far greater number of people in Japan who follow WWE than people in the States who follow the Japanese promotions by simple virtue of the fact that WWE can and has successfully promoted shows in Japan on their own (not a cross promotion) while no Japanese promotion have tried the same over here. Not sure if thats what you were asking though. If it wasn't I apologize.
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The Line
Patti Mayonnaise
Real Name: Bumkiss. Stanley Bumkiss.
Peanut Butter & JAAAAAMMMM!
Posts: 36,698
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Post by The Line on Dec 27, 2008 17:58:04 GMT -5
I've never seen him wrestle as I wont sink any lower than TNA, but does this kid have a superstar personality that captures the fans attention and gives them reason to care whether he wins or loses? If not, he's nowhere near the best in the world. All I know for certain is that his look is terrible. He's short, not particularly built, and, not to be crude, but a bit on the homely side. Some say he has no personality, but I beg to differ. And I find it funny that you call a guy 10 years older than you "a kid".
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Post by kitsunestar on Dec 27, 2008 18:01:20 GMT -5
I'm not saying Danielson is a bad worker, far from it, but it doesn't sound like he really has any desire to work WWE-style. He says he needs 35 minutes a night to get himself over? Creative isn't going to have that kind of patience for him.
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Post by MGH on Dec 27, 2008 18:03:18 GMT -5
I'm not saying Danielson is a bad worker, far from it, but it doesn't sound like he really has any desire to work WWE-style. He says he needs 35 minutes a night to get himself over? Creative isn't going to have that kind of patience for him. Well no, it isn't that he NEEDS it per say. I've seen him work shorter matches and he's just fine at it. He just means he likes having the freedom to put a long match together and do a lot of psychology and body work. Build to a super climactic finish. That's where the real fun is in it for him. In a short match situation he's totally fine, it just isn't his preference.
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Post by Jared Jammer on Dec 27, 2008 18:05:50 GMT -5
I've never seen him wrestle as I wont sink any lower than TNA, but does this kid have a superstar personality that captures the fans attention and gives them reason to care whether he wins or loses? If not, he's nowhere near the best in the world. All I know for certain is that his look is terrible. He's short, not particularly built, and, not to be crude, but a bit on the homely side. Some say he has no personality, but I beg to differ. And I find it funny that you call a guy 10 years older than you "a kid". That's my post count, not my age. ;D
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sloride
Unicron
Doesn't Suck Up. Or Does She?
The Greatest Entertainer to have ever Lived
Posts: 3,196
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Post by sloride on Dec 27, 2008 18:08:01 GMT -5
I dont mind Danielson but if he needs 35 mins to get himself over then the article is 100% correct. He should be getting himself over as soon as he walks through that curtain like the WWE guys can do. Danielson is a phenomenal talent but his look is bland and I personally cannot see him getting over on the big stage. Wrestling in front of 200 people is completely different to wrestling in front of 80,000 at Wrestlemania.
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Garee
King Koopa
I miss the old days
Posts: 11,338
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Post by Garee on Dec 27, 2008 18:12:40 GMT -5
I haven't seen enough of his work to make a proper judgement, but I do agree that making it in the indies and making it in the "big leagues" are two different things.
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Joekishi
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,490
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Post by Joekishi on Dec 27, 2008 18:14:32 GMT -5
There's a big difference in working 6 minute TV matches and 35 minute broadways.
There's more skill in having a good 6 minute TV match than there is in having a long drawn out 35 minute match.
If somebody can't adapt their style to a shorter, faster paced match, that's their bad.
However Danielson can put on good 7-9 minute matches as show by his run in NOAH and New Japan. and his slew of velocity/heat matches
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Post by jfpierce on Dec 27, 2008 18:15:39 GMT -5
Now then if we're using "wrestler" in the term of professional wrestler, which is a completely fictional sport, then the best draw is the best. Thats the only purpose to what they are doing. They are entertainers and their number one goal is to get people to pay to see them perform. That's not the only way there is to measure quality, of course. If that were the case then Tom Cruise is a better actor than Marlon Brando because his movies have sold more tickets.
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Post by Andrew is Good on Dec 27, 2008 18:18:26 GMT -5
Good wrestling is good wrestling whether it's in front of 20, 000, 2,000 or 2 people. There's a lot of factors that go into what a good match is for me, but what company it occurs in and the size of the crowd are just about the last factors I take into consideration for that. It makes sense for a guy in the business like Kevin Nash to say that whoever draws the most money is the best wrestler, but for someone outside, why should I care about that at all? I'm not even a huge Danielson fan, but the idea that if he went to the WWE he would become better simply because of where he was working doesn't make sense to me. Actually, that's not true. A guy is having a much better match if there's 20,000 people in if there's 2000 people, because if it really was that good of a match, there would be more then 2000 people. And if that "good match" had 2000 people, and there were 1500 at the next show, then that match wasn't good at all. Drawing is so insanely important in pro wrestling. I feel though that, in defense of Dragon, he is a good worker, and he can work to help draw people if given the opportunity. I feel now that ROH is becoming more sport based (yes, I did say sport based) instead of spot based, Dragon will have a better change to help work the crowd and work the match and build up some towns, and then he'll be really having good matches. As far as Japan not being the big leagues, one can't really say that. New Japan, All Japan and NOAH (though I read they may not be drawing as much) would be the big leagues in Japan. However, I don't know if many people know this, but the cultures in America and Japan are a bit different. Different ways of thinking, different national sports, different ways things are done, lots of differences. So, to say Dragon hasn't made it in the big leagues is both true and false, because he hasn't had a run yet in WWE, but he's had a good run in Japan. He hasn't made it yet, but if he wanted to, he certainly would make it based on his ability.
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Post by jfpierce on Dec 27, 2008 18:19:45 GMT -5
A lot of wrestlers become better due to WWE experience, mostly in selling themselves, and also in becoming show men. If they can't embrace that aspect then they are a lost cause..Braden walker And there are also plenty of wrestlers who started out in the WWE and never learned how to work matches or connect with crowds until after they left. It's a fit for some people and not for others, and I don't think talent has anything to do with it.
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Joekishi
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,490
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Post by Joekishi on Dec 27, 2008 18:22:07 GMT -5
A rhetorical point about whatever "the big leagues" are: For those that say that WWE is the big leagues and Japan is not, using this discussion board as a cross section of a) an internet wrestling community of some stripe and b) a wrestling audience as a whole, how many posters do we have on here from Japan? It's obvious posters here take an interest in Japanese wrestling, but besides footage from overseas from WWE tapings or house shows, is there any way to quantify what number of Japanese WWE fans are there in relation to mainstream Japanese promotions? Again, this is rhetorical, but if we still debate what the IWC is and what percentage of the American audience it constitutes, then wondering what success is, for whom, how, and where should be next to impossible. I wouldn't assume one way or the other. And for the record, I don't mind Danielson, I'm a casual fan, so if he signs, great! I just hope he's used to the best of his ability. If he doesn't, I hope he has success and fun wherever he goes. I would guess there is a far greater number of people in Japan who follow WWE than people in the States who follow the Japanese promotions by simple virtue of the fact that WWE can and has successfully promoted shows in Japan on their own (not a cross promotion) while no Japanese promotion have tried the same over here. Not sure if thats what you were asking though. If it wasn't I apologize. I think he was wondering the amount of Japanese WWE fans as compared to the amount of Japanese Pro wrestling fans. Japanese wrestling is seen in the same light as North American wrestling, it's for nerds. This is coming from my friend from Japan who is a wrestling fan. He's mostly into WWE moreso than New Japan or All Japan, mostly due to WWE being available both on terrestrial and Satellite TV as opposed to most New Japan and All Japan strictly satellite TV. There's more people watching WWE because of it's availabity to the people, as opposed to watching at midnight to see some wrestling. the fact that WWE is world wide, instead of just being strictly United States, is pretty much saying they are the top dog, in Mexico, Argentina, Australia, South Africa, hell they even sold out shows in the Phillipines. I don't think at this moment any other wrestling company can do what WWE does, and get a character over all across the globe. I think WWE can make anybody they want to into a superstar.
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Post by skiller on Dec 27, 2008 18:22:34 GMT -5
Man, that Triple H. King of Kings? Give me a break. First of all where's his crown? How can you be a king if you don't have a crown? If you don't have a crown then you have no right to call yourself king, let alone the king of kings. Who's he related to anyway? Does he have some royal blood in him from King John? Did he win the crown in a bet, then against whom and for what state? And in that mind, what state would grant kingship over kingship?
Until we have some proof that he has some royal blood, or some connection with a throne calling him the King of Kings is an absolute joke.
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Post by kitsunestar on Dec 27, 2008 18:30:50 GMT -5
Man, that Triple H. King of Kings? Give me a break. First of all where's his crown? How can you be a king if you don't have a crown? If you don't have a crown then you have no right to call yourself king, let alone the king of kings. Who's he related to anyway? Does he have some royal blood in him from King John? Did he win the crown in a bet, then against whom and for what state? And in that mind, what state would grant kingship over kingship? Until we have some proof that he has some royal blood, or some connection with a throne calling him the King of Kings is an absolute joke. Cue the picture of HHH when he did his "Barbarian King" entrance (with crown and throne) at Wrestlemania...
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Post by Hulkshi Tanahashi on Dec 27, 2008 18:31:07 GMT -5
Someone who thinks that Bryan Danielson can't work is someone who has never seen Bryan Danielson wrestle.
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Post by skiller on Dec 27, 2008 18:45:00 GMT -5
Man, that Triple H. King of Kings? Give me a break. First of all where's his crown? How can you be a king if you don't have a crown? If you don't have a crown then you have no right to call yourself king, let alone the king of kings. Who's he related to anyway? Does he have some royal blood in him from King John? Did he win the crown in a bet, then against whom and for what state? And in that mind, what state would grant kingship over kingship? Until we have some proof that he has some royal blood, or some connection with a throne calling him the King of Kings is an absolute joke. Cue the picture of HHH when he did his "Barbarian King" entrance (with crown and throne) at Wrestlemania... The point is that if people can criticise Danielson for his gimmick then why should others get away with theirs. It's not Bryan's fault that fans really get into the gimmick. It just proves what a talent he really is when he can make a crazy claim like that and have people buy into it. Who really cares about whether he wrestles for the big leagues or not. I personally prefer him over just about anyone in either WWE or TNA. But that's just my opinion. I've never heard Bryan ever state he's above anyone in wrestling, let alone WWE or TNA, and honestly this guy just sounds bitter.
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 27, 2008 18:57:37 GMT -5
Someone who thinks that Bryan Danielson can't work is someone who has never seen Bryan Danielson wrestle. This just about sums it up. First of all, "Best Wrestler in the World" was Dragon's gimmick when he was ROH World Champ. As others have said, he meant it in the sense that nobody could outwrestle him on the mat, nobody could out-think him in the ring, etc. He didn't mean it in a sense like he was the "most electrifying man in wrestling" like the Rock or something. Just that, when the bell rang, nobody could best him. In other words, due to Danielson's big time in-ring talent, they made a gimmick focusing on it. That's all. But anyone who says "he just does a bunch of random submissions, he doesn't know how to work" has absolutely never watched the guy wrestle, period, and I don't care what they say otherwise. First off, Danielson barely uses any "fancy" submission holds. If anything, Dragon excels at using very basic holds. He made the Crossface Chickenwing a move to be feared again, and one of his finishers, when he's in a situation where he needs to end a match quickly (i.e. against an opponent who just won't stay down for a 3) is to just repeatedly smash his elbow into a guy's head. Yep, sounds oh-so-fancy and highspot-ish to me. But there are plenty of submission wrestlers out there. What distinguishes Danielson is that he's one of the smarter guys out there when it comes to storytelling during a match. Some of Dragon's matches have had some scary deep logic to them as you watch, and you can tell that that whole aspect of wrestling is what makes the business worthwhile to Dragon, ergo his desire to keep wrestling in places that let him work longer than 10 minutes or less at a pop. I still think his 2006 title defense against a then up-and-coming Delirious spoke volumes to just how good Danielson is at dictating the story of a match, and tailoring his actions, words, and gestures to match the opponent he's facing (i.e. doing something different against a strange worker like Delirious than what he'd do against another submission wrestler like Nigel McGuinness). The guy's really a cut above, and, yes, he can work great short matches too...but it's clearly just not his preference. Good for him sticking to what makes him happy. Once again, though, as for what qualifies a guy to be the "best wrestler in the world"? As others have said, how popular you are isn't exactly the greatest barometer, since popularity and quality don't necessarily go hand-in-hand. That's not a knock on guys like Cena or Edge, mind you; it takes a lot to be able to work even just an OK match in front of 20,000 people, no doubt about it. But if we're just talking about the straight up "art form" of wrestling from bell-to-bell, without regard for tickets sold, which company you work for, etc. etc. etc., then I think there's a good argument for Danielson being the tops. Like I said, there aren't too many out there who are better storytellers, better at selling, better at getting his personality over with a crowd during a match by saying and doing the right things to get a reaction, and better at executing both simple and complex moves so that both look just as painful as one another.
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