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Post by Bobby Womack on May 31, 2009 3:47:42 GMT -5
yeah, i totally dont agree with what that guy said, the midcard in wcw was why i always gave it the nod over wwe and ecw, i just took issue with the exact things i quoted from your post funnily enough most of the albums i own would be lucky to go cardboard not to mention platinum, just like a lot of wrestling ive enjoyed was performed in front of tiny crowds, what i am against though is people with a distorted perception of reality, if you love puro or the indies thats great, just dont come out and say that an ironman match featuring your 2 favorite workers would sell out msg and that every major promotion are idiots for not booking it, people can enjoy what they want but i always roll my eyes when they come on and try to push it on everyone as the best thing ever, people need to learn that theres a huge difference between 'favorite' and 'best' and that its all subjective and all opinions I don't argue that, I don't think the promotion should be run specifically for me and my tastes, I'm likely a minority I know that. But what I will argue is that they aren't maximizing their business when every worker wrestles very similar other than their 5 signature moves, everybody cuts the same cookie cutter promos and nearly everyone they call up from development looks like they could be related to each other. Variety is the spice of life, with as many hours of TV as they have every week every show could feature numerous different styles and traits of wrestling but they don't do that. Everything is to cookie cutter everything is the same. To many guys look the same, wrestle the same and talk the same. I want to see different guys with different styles in and out of the ring mesh together. I want to see fast past cruiserweight style matches and heavyweight style matches in the same show not cruisers working heavyweight style. Just little things like that, variety, different looks, different promo styles, different wrestling styles, providing something for the wide range of wrestling fans out there not taking every person and putting them into this nice little cooker cutter shape and telling the fans to open up and swallow it. i wholeheartedly agree with all of that, but i still dont belive that any show should try to rely on guys getting over based on match quality alone, guys like mysterio are exceptions more than the rule funnily enough most of the albums i own would be lucky to go cardboard not to mention platinum, just like a lot of wrestling ive enjoyed was performed in front of tiny crowds, what i am against though is people with a distorted perception of reality, if you love puro or the indies thats great, just dont come out and say that an ironman match featuring your 2 favorite workers would sell out msg and that every major promotion are idiots for not booking it, people can enjoy what they want but i always roll my eyes when they come on and try to push it on everyone as the best thing ever, people need to learn that theres a huge difference between 'favorite' and 'best' and that its all subjective and all opinions It's not a "distorted perception of reality" anything booked right can sell out. ANYTHING. People liking other things better is not a distorted perception of reality. WWE is not the end all be all just because they managed to promote themselves as the best EVAH. Do you listen to Bobby Womack, btw? My dad and brother loved him and Johnny Guitar Watson. Edit based on Mecca's new post: Contrived, cookie cutter wrestling may run it's course with the real fans and WWE might find themselves alienating the lifers. i dont think that the wwe is the best thing ever, and i dont think people liking other things is distorted, but can you really tell me that someone saying something like chris hero or necro butcher are wwe championship material, or wwe are fools for not basing their programming around the likes of finlay and benoit, really have a strong footing in reality? ofcourse anything can be done but something like the above mentioned things would take so much more effort and would have very little payoff over just going with the formula, which i do admit sucks and yeah i love me some bobby womack, sam cooke, teddy pendergrass, otis redding and all the real soul/blues and funk over the crap they try to pass off nowadays, and watson was amazingly ahead of his time, i guess music is much like wrestling in that they dont make it like they used to
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Post by Tea & Crumpets on May 31, 2009 6:28:42 GMT -5
Did you miss the point of what we were arguing? Your argument is that WCW's midcard didn't take away from it's mainevent while he said it did... This idea that no one cares about the great matches that took place on WCW's midcard is also ludicrous. What drove WCW was the NWO but what hooked more fans was the overall product that did provide something for everybody. yeah, i totally dont agree with what that guy[/u] said, the midcard in wcw was why i always gave it the nod over wwe and ecw, i just took issue with the exact things i quoted from your post [/quote] ... "that guy" was you. Also I believe that charisma is more important than ring ability, but good wrestling has its place too. And that at the end of the day, provided you market it right ANYTHING can sell as top draw- do people watch say, football/soccer or American football for the zany characters? No, they watch it for a good game and to see their team win. Boxing isn't about the personalities, although characterful boxers do tend to be popular the main draw is the sport aspect. Whether booked as a legit sport or as character-based entertainment, wrestling could draw big either way and either aspect could be the top attraction- its all about conditioning/training the fans in that style and about marketing it right.
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Joekishi
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,490
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Post by Joekishi on May 31, 2009 6:56:34 GMT -5
WWE holds them back for Safety reasons and The MUCH Larger Schedule where they'll work multiple Matches in one week Again that's completely untrue. All Japan Women worked 5 - 6 days a week, and didn't hold back at all. Most of their workers still work today. If you train right, you can work that schedule. They should be the ones making the money, not the people who can barely work 3 days out of the week doing soft and small bumps. most not all a lot of them shouldn't be working, but do so anyways because that's the japanese way of working even when you're hurt. Al Snow talked about the difference in schedule, in Japan you have a tour schedule, the house show matches were pretty much what they are in wwe a light exhibition, wrestlers turned on the afterburners for TV shows, but their schedules were more relaxed and wrestlers had recovery time. Where as in WWE it's a night in night out 24/7 traveling without much rest. That's why you see guys like Big Show and Jericho "bloat". I really hate this notion of "midcard wrestlers work their ass off i want to see them wrestle this way" That's what i'm getting from all these post, they should be this way because i like things that way. WWE in the wellness era isn't exactly the land of giants. Besides muscle men like Cena, Batista, and HHH there's not many guys who look like those 3 right now in WWE. Everbody has a different style to their matches, an Evan Bourne Match is way different than a Shelton Benjiman match. Different styles, different wrestlers. People group this "wwe style" as one style that all wrestlers share, but it's not. I hate indy wrestling that's a long drawn out match with so many finishers being used from bell to bell, it's cliche and blah. A guy with maximum charisma and "it factor">>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>guy who can wrestle really good. That's why Eddie became an Icon when he became Latino Heat.
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Post by allstar on May 31, 2009 8:02:49 GMT -5
Methinks Johnny Skateboard is missing some of that geisha lovin' from his Japan days and wants to add some to the divas division.
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Post by Chuckie Finster on May 31, 2009 21:15:09 GMT -5
It allows for guys who can really work to work, I know not everyone is going to be out there going Japanese strong style and kicking the excretory matter out of each other. I think the WWE holds back what some of their guys can do, they have some very very talented workers on their roster that could succeed in places like Japan with a higher workrate desire but they don't get to show it. WWE holds them back for Safety reasons and The MUCH Larger Schedule where they'll work multiple Matches in one week Dragon Gate wrestlers work around 200 dates a year with the company and some work even more than that with other companies. All Japan, New Japan and NOAH work around 175 dates with their own company and a majority of guys do 30-40 dates with smaller companies. The most dates a WWE wrestler works a year is around 160. More and more overseas dates and the two separate tours has meant lesser days wrestling. Sure they travel a lot, but still. The whole "we work 300 days a year" thing is a myth. Even back in the 80's, WWE guys worked 225 days max and that's if they don't get injured and don't do any autograph signings or non-wrestling TV apperances. And with how many guys were using (and abusing) steroids and having hard muscles which tear easy, the injury rate was high so they cut down.
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Starlight Starbright
Don Corleone
Suffers From Macho Madness.
?Literary, intelligent, yet capable of great savagery. A terrifying genius.?
Posts: 1,969
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Post by Starlight Starbright on Jun 1, 2009 5:08:07 GMT -5
Again that's completely untrue. All Japan Women worked 5 - 6 days a week, and didn't hold back at all. Most of their workers still work today. If you train right, you can work that schedule. They should be the ones making the money, not the people who can barely work 3 days out of the week doing soft and small bumps. most not all a lot of them shouldn't be working, but do so anyways because that's the japanese way of working even when you're hurt. Al Snow talked about the difference in schedule, in Japan you have a tour schedule, the house show matches were pretty much what they are in wwe a light exhibition, wrestlers turned on the afterburners for TV shows, but their schedules were more relaxed and wrestlers had recovery time. Where as in WWE it's a night in night out 24/7 traveling without much rest. That's why you see guys like Big Show and Jericho "bloat". I really hate this notion of "midcard wrestlers work their ass off i want to see them wrestle this way" That's what i'm getting from all these post, they should be this way because i like things that way. WWE in the wellness era isn't exactly the land of giants. Besides muscle men like Cena, Batista, and HHH there's not many guys who look like those 3 right now in WWE. Everbody has a different style to their matches, an Evan Bourne Match is way different than a Shelton Benjiman match. Different styles, different wrestlers. People group this "wwe style" as one style that all wrestlers share, but it's not. I hate indy wrestling that's a long drawn out match with so many finishers being used from bell to bell, it's cliche and blah. A guy with maximum charisma and "it factor">>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>guy who can wrestle really good. That's why Eddie became an Icon when he became Latino Heat. Yes but some people are acting like there's NO place for wrestling in WWE. And if you happen to like wrestling you're somehow wrong or "not getting it". I guess there is no place for wrestling in the WWE. Just 3-6 min match ups of "blah"with no rhyme or reason. I love joshi puro but I also love wrestlers like Rick Martel, Roddy Piper, Sherri Martel, Madusa Miceli- that could talk, walk, look the part and then get it done in the ring. A person who can satisfy the charisma factor and the wrestling talent factor simultaneously is priceless in my opinion. And I'm not talking "work rate" I'm talking being able to tell a story. And a good story needs time to play out- not 3-6 minutes. Al Snow also mentioned the short nature of matches in modern WWE putting a big dent in storytelling. Now, things are being done halfway and aspiring wrestlers are taking that as how things are to be done. I don't see the reason in bringing in Japanese wrestlers to do 5 minute matches. That may very will be true, it's "sports entertainment" not "wrestling". Even considering bringing in Japanese talent is a misstep for that reason. 3-6 does not cut it for me and a lot of other people. That doesn't make us "wrong" or "Stupid" it makes us wrestling fans, not sports entertainment excusers.
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Starlight Starbright
Don Corleone
Suffers From Macho Madness.
?Literary, intelligent, yet capable of great savagery. A terrifying genius.?
Posts: 1,969
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Post by Starlight Starbright on Jun 1, 2009 5:17:01 GMT -5
It's not a "distorted perception of reality" anything booked right can sell out. ANYTHING. People liking other things better is not a distorted perception of reality. WWE is not the end all be all just because they managed to promote themselves as the best EVAH. Do you listen to Bobby Womack, btw? My dad and brother loved him and Johnny Guitar Watson. Edit based on Mecca's new post: Contrived, cookie cutter wrestling may run it's course with the real fans and WWE might find themselves alienating the lifers. i dont think that the wwe is the best thing ever, and i dont think people liking other things is distorted, but can you really tell me that someone saying something like chris hero or necro butcher are wwe championship material, or wwe are fools for not basing their programming around the likes of finlay and benoit, really have a strong footing in reality? ofcourse anything can be done but something like the above mentioned things would take so much more effort and would have very little payoff over just going with the formula, which i do admit sucks and yeah i love me some bobby womack, sam cooke, teddy pendergrass, otis redding and all the real soul/blues and funk over the crap they try to pass off nowadays, and watson was amazingly ahead of his time, i guess music is much like wrestling in that they dont make it like they used to I don't recall anyone (at least not anyone who was talking to you in this thread) saying Necro was WWE championship material (which by the way, he could be if promoted right etc.,). Edit: You don't have a crystal ball so you don't know what the years hold for Hero. Many people would have never thought Punk would have made it as far as he did but an understanding of wrestling mechanisms got him where he is. Not "work rate", so throw that angle against us "smarks" out the window because it's useless. Who are you to say that people with certain tastes don't have "a good footing in reality". You're being worked by Titan Towers and you don't seem to know it. Statements like that are what make me think you truly believe WWE is the best EVAH simply because they have you believe their way is the right way, the only way for "wrestling". It's actually the right way for sports entertainment. The only problem is they have to dismantle the wrestling groundwork and redesign the way they do things to support their sports entertainment. One reason ppv buyrates are so low is because they no longer build meaningfully and they no longer do that because they don't have the time. It's a far cry from the 90s- they have to get rid of the wrestling ppv system and give people a reason- overcome their vestigial wrestling hurdles to become bigger. But yeah, WWE is huge with lots of money and influence- so much influence that they've created a whole mess of problems for themselves. Destroying the territories was short sighted. Now they've got nowhere to incubate future prospects so now they have to push guys really hard and really fast when they aren't ready. And then when they don't work out (due to lack of experience) they axe them. Really productive. Just because I don't dig 3-6 minute matches, canned wrestling, models and punch/kick/finishers doesn't mean I'm "not grounded in reality" for you to think that is painfully arrogant.
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Starlight Starbright
Don Corleone
Suffers From Macho Madness.
?Literary, intelligent, yet capable of great savagery. A terrifying genius.?
Posts: 1,969
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Post by Starlight Starbright on Jun 1, 2009 5:21:35 GMT -5
I've been a fan for as long as I can remember, I can't remember a time wrestling wasn't part of my life. Right now it's like they take everyone put them in development and they come out as clones of each other right down to how they look. If you showed someone who wasn't aware of wrestling a picture of legacy, they could buy those guys are related to each other. I always thought the best thing for wrestling was to have unique characters who had different looks and ring/promo styles to give all sorts of different fans wrestlers they could relate with and latch onto, I dunno maybe I'm wrong. And you can call me Jeff since it's my name, I always kinda smile when people refer to me as Mecca though. That cookie cutter thing is going to snowball in the coming years and hopefully disappear. It's really detrimental, looks like they all come from a factory. Which makes since because WWE has been contrived for awhile now. "Live from New York, it's MONDAY NIGHT CONTRIVED!!!". Canned. Contrived. Mass produced. = success. That's why I can rarely not even stand to peep at WWE; it might as well be in black and white. It's also seldom original.
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Van daminator
Trap-Jaw
RattleSnake Still Full of venom.
Posts: 330
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Post by Van daminator on Jun 6, 2009 23:54:42 GMT -5
This would be great...Except no one in the WWE can take a shining wizard/cradle piledriver/shining black etc. etc. without looking like they can't wrestle...Mr.Pogo in ecw however may make me watch it again.
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Krimzon
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This guy is the man!
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Posts: 43,870
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Post by Krimzon on Jun 6, 2009 23:59:21 GMT -5
This would be great...Except no one in the WWE can take a shining wizard/cradle piledriver/shining black etc. etc. without looking like they can't wrestle...Mr.Pogo in ecw however may make me watch it again. Thanks to MVP, plenty of people have taken the Shining Black.
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Mozenrath
FANatic
Foppery and Whim
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Post by Mozenrath on Jun 7, 2009 0:03:28 GMT -5
This would be great...Except no one in the WWE can take a shining wizard/cradle piledriver/shining black etc. etc. without looking like they can't wrestle...Mr.Pogo in ecw however may make me watch it again. Thanks to MVP, plenty of people have taken the Shining Black. That, and people have been taking step-up enzuigiris like every night in the last year or two. Couldn't be THAT different.
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