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Post by strykerdarksilence on Nov 5, 2009 19:49:13 GMT -5
Oh, and I just read the second bit of that, and I wasn't referring to the Angle comments, where I understood what you were saying, more the one aimed at Cena where you kinda urinated on his place in the list even though he was voted there.
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Post by strykerdarksilence on Nov 5, 2009 19:52:04 GMT -5
Race and Funk most definately better all round. Doc on a par. Remove Flair and you lose one half of every major 1980s angle that isn't Hogan/Andre or Hogan/Piper, and the guy virtually every wrestler idolises as a performer. But more heels could have gotten the spot in the main event, creating more stars and more fueds. My personal opinion is that Flair and Hogan was the cause for the fall in wrestling in the early 90s because they were so heavily used and focused upon that no one else was rarely given the chance to shine in thier roles Other than in WWF 1992, which was only for 3/4 of the year, Flair was constantly downsized by promoters in the attempt to let others step up, and every time they ended up falling back on Flair. Sting and Luger, the next generation in NWA/WCW owed their star status to Flair putting them over. Similarly with Hogan, Warrior failed, Taker wasn't ready, Bret didn't catch fire and Yoko was a placeholder heel. If the guy is getting the reactions nobody else can generate then you fall back on him. It's the downside of having guys as big/good/popular as that on top, that when their time is up, there is always going to be a lull waiting for the next spark to ignite. In 93-96 when that lull took place, guys were given the chance but it just didn't click for whatever reason. If you look at the period, Flair, Hogan and Piper are still the highest drawing names on the whole in terms of buyrates until the nWo, ECW and Attitude took over. You can give any guy the chance to fill the gap, but it is a business and if they aren't making the same money, you go back to what you know makes that money. The problem you described is more applicable to WCW 98 when Sting and then Goldberg should have been the focus, but the chase for ratings meant changes were made all too sparingly.
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Square
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Post by Square on Nov 5, 2009 19:55:35 GMT -5
But more heels could have gotten the spot in the main event, creating more stars and more fueds. My personal opinion is that Flair and Hogan was the cause for the fall in wrestling in the early 90s because they were so heavily used and focused upon that no one else was rarely given the chance to shine in thier roles Other than in WWF 1992, which was only for 3/4 of the year, Flair was constantly downsized by promoters in the attempt to let others step up, and every time they ended up falling back on Flair. Sting and Luger, the next generation in NWA/WCW owed their star status to Flair putting them over. Thats faces though, there were no heels that compared to Flair in the slightest which lead to "why should I watch this, theres no one on the same level to fight Lugar/Sting except Flair" Same in WWF with Hogan, so many amazing heels but faces? Except Warrior and possibly Savage there was no one at Hogan's level
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Post by strykerdarksilence on Nov 5, 2009 20:04:56 GMT -5
But more heels could have gotten the spot in the main event, creating more stars and more fueds. My personal opinion is that Flair and Hogan was the cause for the fall in wrestling in the early 90s because they were so heavily used and focused upon that no one else was rarely given the chance to shine in thier roles Other than in WWF 1992, which was only for 3/4 of the year, Flair was constantly downsized by promoters in the attempt to let others step up, and every time they ended up falling back on Flair. Sting and Luger, the next generation in NWA/WCW owed their star status to Flair putting them over. Similarly with Hogan, Warrior failed, Taker wasn't ready, Bret didn't catch fire and Yoko was a placeholder heel. If the guy is getting the reactions nobody else can generate then you fall back on him. It's the downside of having guys as big/good/popular as that on top, that when their time is up, there is always going to be a lull waiting for the next spark to ignite. In 93-96 when that lull took place, guys were given the chance but it just didn't click for whatever reason. If you look at the period, Flair, Hogan and Piper are still the highest drawing names on the whole in terms of buyrates until the nWo, ECW and Attitude took over. You can give any guy the chance to fill the gap, but it is a business and if they aren't making the same money, you go back to what you know makes that money. The problem you described is more applicable to WCW 98 when Sting and then Goldberg should have been the focus, but the chase for ratings meant changes were made all too sparingly. Whoops, was editing while you replied.
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Post by JerryvonKramer on Nov 5, 2009 20:17:43 GMT -5
Well there's two ways at looking at it Square. The WWF had a lot of great heels and one great face, the NWA had a lot of great faces and one great heel, so it was just how they operated.
But looking at it in hindsight, that era probably has more great heels than any other (DiBiase, Perfect, Rude, Piper, Ornforff, HTM, Savage, Jake, Terry Funk, Arn Anderson, Blanchard, Steve Williams -- and there must be some others I'm missing), all of whom passed through the NWA while Flair was on top so it's hard to say he stopped great heels coming through.
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Post by strykerdarksilence on Nov 5, 2009 20:25:40 GMT -5
Also to take into account is the fact that booking would decide the face/heel divide a lot of the time. Why pour a tonne of TV time into a young, talented babyface if his career will come to a standstill once he becomes the number 2 face behind Hogan? Much better to get full use of him and have him feud with Hogan when he reaches that level so as to maximise the draw.
If you're in the business, you want to work with the top name, even moreso at that time as your pay packet was dependent on the gate. Why limit yourself and wait for the top guy to move aside when you can work with them and increase your earningd accordingly.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2009 9:18:52 GMT -5
I tend to think Angle's place in history may have been skewed down since his General Manager role on SmackDown late in his WWE run. Before that, I considered him one of the top ten ever, and the only reason I didn't say top five is because he hasn't been around long enough.
Just my opinion, of course.
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Post by quantum on Nov 6, 2009 9:34:34 GMT -5
Angle is in the correct place either that or he is too high he should be in the top 10 yes but top 5 more than likely.
Also the Austin/Angle face/heel comment was hardly an opinion it is a fact and a very groundbreaking decision (by mostly the fans) at the time. Also I for one like the other personal opinions in the list I agree with just about everything you say. Including todays product (low buy rates attendance and ratings) vs 90's and 80;s product (two major booms and highest buy rates, attendance and ratings ever in professional wrestling this decade is the first since the 70's with no boom) saying todays product is shoddy compared to 80;s and 90;s is hardly a (personal) opinion when you take all that into consideration either.
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Post by JerryvonKramer on Nov 8, 2009 18:15:33 GMT -5
And on 37 points, weighing in at ... it doesn't matter what he weighs! Know your damn role.7. The RockThe short but ... electric WWF/E career of The Rock is proof if ever any were needed that workrate and in-ring ability come secondary to charisma and mic skills in defining overness and drawing power. The Rock was the first African American to win the WWF title in 1998 as the cocky "Corporate" champion of Vince McMahon's Corporation. Such was his wit and charisma during this period, in which he cut some very funny promos, that the fans started to cheer him and, inevitably, the Corporate Champion became the People's Champion. Between 1998 and 2002, he was a 9-time world champion (7 WWF/E, 2 World) before forging a career in Hollywood that rates somewhere between Hulk Hogan's and Vinnie Jones's. Arguably, The Rock elevated promos to another level in the late 90s comparable with Ric Flair's promos in 80s NWA -- when he was on fire, he was on fire!chunkylover53 said: "The Rock - A future WWE Hall of Famer - This man has charisma written all over him. My view on charisma is it can't be passed around of taught, it comes from within. His charisma came from a push nobody wanted, and the fans rejected it greatly with chants such as "Rocky Sucks" and "Die Rocky Die". When he turned heel, he expressed those views and that later took a life of its own." fg76 said: "The Rock - Dwayne Johnson is missed. He was one of the only guys that was so entertaining that he could get his a** kicked every week and nobody ever would care. He'll never work a match again, but he really could have been the man for years. Or at least should have been . . . Personally, I'm shocked Johnson hasn't tried standup comedy after movie shoots just to see if he could recapture the magic he had with the promos." SandmanBrawl Saturday?!?!?!? said: "The Rock. I'm not a big fan of his, and his wrestling is a shade better than Hulk Hogan, but you can't deny the fact that he's over with the crowd, can really work the stick like a master, and can take an ass-kicking like few before him. Sometimes he sells to the point of over-exaggeration." Mac said: "The Rock Ring Skill 6, Mic 10, Work Crowd 10, Overness 10"
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Post by strykerdarksilence on Nov 8, 2009 18:19:27 GMT -5
I'm likely alone, but I'll quietly boo that and then leave.
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Post by hbk4ever09 on Nov 8, 2009 18:33:46 GMT -5
1. 2. 3. 4. 5. THE ROCK (#7)
Now i'm interested in the final 6. I know 4 of them (from my list) but am too lazy to go back through the thread and find out the other two to see who hasn't been called.
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Post by hbk4ever09 on Nov 8, 2009 18:37:42 GMT -5
Okay i got all 6 (i think lol). Here's how i think it goes down: {Spoiler} 1. HBK (yeah i'm marking so what?) 2. Flair 3. Stone Cold 4. Hogan 5. Bret 6. Savage
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Post by Tfmcmg is Johnny Green on Nov 8, 2009 18:40:12 GMT -5
1. Mitsuharu Misawa 2. Kenta Kobashi 3. Toshiaki Kawada 4.Kensuke Sasaki 5.Keiji Mutoh/Great Muta
Also Lmfao at an american being number one on the list and the highest ranking japanese wreslter being number nine.
All I can say is "Cocaine is one hell of a drug."
Let me just say this and this is just how I feel about how I sometimes rank wrestlers. Misawa innovated the tiger driver so to me anyone who gets over and sells out arenas and win championship using the tiger driver is partially there because of misawa.
That's just my feelings though. I understand that the rock is number seven because he cut great promos but he's not doing that anymore. Misawa maybe dead but he's still making money for the wrestling industry via the people who are using the moves he innovated. .
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Post by simplydurhamcalling on Nov 8, 2009 18:49:04 GMT -5
That's simply because a LOT of people, including myself, may not have seen a lot of Japanese wrestling. I simply refuse to vote for someone when I haven't seen much, if any, of their work.
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Post by JerryvonKramer on Nov 8, 2009 18:58:02 GMT -5
1. Mitsuharu Misawa 2. Kenta Kobashi 3. Toshiaki Kawada 4.Kensuke Sasaki 5.Keiji Mutoh/Great Muta Also Lmfao at an american being number one on the list and the highest ranking japanese wreslter being number nine. All I can say is "Cocaine is one hell of a drug." Let me just say this and this is just how I feel about how I sometimes rank wrestlers. Misawa innovated the tiger driver so to me anyone who gets over and sells out arenas and win championship using the tiger driver is partially there because of misawa. That's just my feelings though. I understand that the rock is number seven because he cut great promos but he's not doing that anymore. Misawa maybe dead but he's still making money for the wrestling industry via the people who are using the moves he innovated. . It's hard to say though if The Rock's influence is still being felt in wrestling promos or not. You could argue he elevated promos to an extent that subsequent heels and faces have borrowed aspects of his style. I'm thinking Edge, Christian, even Jericho, among others. Endearing influence can amount to more than just specific moves or in-ring innovations. There are tensions running all the way through this list from the 50 or so people who voted -- let's call it our "expert panel" ;D Historical legacy (50s-70s) vs. 80s boom (+ territories) vs. Monday Night Wars vs. current Japanese vs. American Mainstream vs. Modern Indie scene Workrate/ In-Ring Ability vs. Charisma/ Mic Skills/ Overness WWE bias vs. non-WWE bias etc. etc. However, I think it's led to a pretty interesting and unexpected list thus far. EDIT: Just added some voters' comments to The Rock's entry by the way.
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Post by J is Justice on Nov 8, 2009 19:12:40 GMT -5
1. 2. 3. The Rock 4. Mick Foley 5.
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Post by thwak is T.hawk on Nov 8, 2009 20:19:51 GMT -5
1. Mitsuharu Misawa 2. Kenta Kobashi 3. Toshiaki Kawada 4.Kensuke Sasaki 5.Keiji Mutoh/Great Muta Also Lmfao at an american being number one on the list and the highest ranking japanese wreslter being number nine. All I can say is "Cocaine is one hell of a drug." Let me just say this and this is just how I feel about how I sometimes rank wrestlers. Misawa innovated the tiger driver so to me anyone who gets over and sells out arenas and win championship using the tiger driver is partially there because of misawa. That's just my feelings though. I understand that the rock is number seven because he cut great promos but he's not doing that anymore. Misawa maybe dead but he's still making money for the wrestling industry via the people who are using the moves he innovated. . It's hard to say though if The Rock's influence is still being felt in wrestling promos or not. You could argue he elevated promos to an extent that subsequent heels and faces have borrowed aspects of his style. I'm thinking Edge, Christian, even Jericho, among others. Endearing influence can amount to more than just specific moves or in-ring innovations. There are tensions running all the way through this list from the 50 or so people who voted -- let's call it our "expert panel" ;D Historical legacy (50s-70s) vs. 80s boom (+ territories) vs. Monday Night Wars vs. current Japanese vs. American Mainstream vs. Modern Indie scene Workrate/ In-Ring Ability vs. Charisma/ Mic Skills/ Overness WWE bias vs. non-WWE bias etc. etc. However, I think it's led to a pretty interesting and unexpected list thus far. EDIT: Just added some voters' comments to The Rock's entry by the way. I just submitted my personal top five. :shrugs:
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2009 2:14:16 GMT -5
1. the best wrestler imho and its amazing he was ever given his chance considering his size 2. The Rock 3. the only man who can ever be considered as the man who started two boom periods 4. Kurt Angle 5. ...What?
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Post by JerryvonKramer on Nov 9, 2009 18:14:44 GMT -5
And on 38 points, weight 237lbs, accompanied by the first lady of wrestling, the lovely miss Elizabeth, it's ...OOHHH YEAAHHHH6. "Macho Man" Randy SavageA true one off, there was never anyone before nor since who talked like Macho, who moved like Macho, who thought like Macho, or who meticulously planned his matches like Macho. Savage's career is notable for his amazing run in the WWF from 1985 until 1994, including: winning the IC title from Tito Santana, his remarkable match at Wrestlemania 3 against Ricky Steamboat, his year as WWF champion in 1988 during which he feuded extensively with Ted DiBiase (and had some very good matches) and went into Wrestlemania V with the awesome "Mega Powers Explode" angle, his time managed by Sherri as the "Macho King" during which he helped an aging Sgt. Slaughter to a World title and had one of the great Wrestlemania matches against (of all people) the Ultimate Warrior, his amazing and very emotional feud with Jake "the Snake" Roberts, and his second world title run during which he had a great match with Ric Flair and yet another ***+ match against the Ultimate Warrior(!). After that, Savage had done enough to cement himself a place in wrestling history, but he went on to win the WCW World title four times after jumping ship and was part of the 'cool' face nWo Wolfpac. Both in the ring and on the mic, as a face or as a heel, there was really no one else quite like Savage. A legend. fg76 said: "Randy "Macho Man" Savage: After watching the SNME DVD, I'm jumping back on the Macho Madness bandwagon. He seems to be blackballed from the WWE for whatever reason you want to believe. However, his WWF era from 1984-1989 produced some of the greatest matches out there. The man was a legit superstar and draw in his own right. This man actually carried Honky Tonk Man to a almost ***** match in Sept/October 1987 for SNME, and was one of the high-flyers in a very grounded era for Sports Entertainment and Pro-Wrestling. Also was great with his promos too." chunkylover53 said: "Randy "Macho Man" Savage - Great in the ring, over as both a heel and a face, and intense on the mic. One of a kind in my book." SandmanBrawl Saturday?!?!?!? said: "Randy Savage. I know, surprise, huh? Another guy who gave wrestling a kick in the ass. His interviews can creep you out or get you riled up. He was a guy who used the entire ring to his advantage. He and Dynamite Kid were the first guys I can recall who could use the top rope as a weapon of destruction. Savage has star quality and audience appeal whether as a face or heel (more as a heel, he's a great asshole you love to hate)."
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Post by strykerdarksilence on Nov 9, 2009 18:25:00 GMT -5
Not going to argue with that one. All time great, even if he's not in the upper echelons of my favourites.
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