TheDieselTrain
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Post by TheDieselTrain on Jun 24, 2010 12:33:46 GMT -5
2) The only real reason that he becomes Vader is because he believed Palpatine could help save Padme. Once Padme was dead (dying of a 'broken heart' despite having two kids to raise), he has what reason to be the Emperor's apprentice anymore? He should have either struck down Palpatine or left him completely. Well Palpatine did save his life by retrieving him after Obi Wan left him to die so I could see him staying for that reason.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jun 24, 2010 12:37:56 GMT -5
To be honest, it's the only one of the 3 that fans needed. The other 2 films were basically setup for the third, you don't need to see the others for anything other than the beginnings of the Padme/Anakin romance. Qui Gonn, Mace Windu, Jango Fett, Darth Maul and Tyrannus (I thought there were onlysupposed to be 2 at a time) Jar Jar, The Trade Federation, General Grievous none of these characters mattered at all and could all be cut out without losing anything. Keep the focus on Anakin, Padme, Obi Wan, Yoda and Palpatine. 5 Characters, the originals had a small ensemble cast so they all got time for us to care about them. The Jedi Council should have been like the Rebel Alliance, a bunch of faceless background characters, maybe even Yoda in that role, he was only a small part of the originals and it didn't hurt. Your first point is probably the most pivotal. Revenge of the Sith, again, was the only prequel that seemed to have a real narrative to it that built towards something, even if it wasn't done all that well (in my opinion). The first two movies brought essentially nothing to the table. People wanted to see how Anakin became Vader, how Palpatine engineered his takeover, how the Jedi fell, and maybe how Luke and Leia were born. ALL of that is crammed into ONE movie. That's way, way too much material to stuff into one flick, yet the first two ended up being wasted with podraces, a terribly written love story, needless Fett cameos, and other things done with really the sole intention of selling more toys and video games.
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CMWaters
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Post by CMWaters on Jun 24, 2010 13:02:03 GMT -5
And why can there be hundreds of Jedi but only two Sith at any one time? That's just stupid. That's actually explained in the Episode I novel. Before the events of Episode I, there was a conflict between Jedi and Sith. But because there were so many Sith, that led to power struggles and a Sith Civil War pretty much. So, to prevent too much power struggling due to infighting, it was decided by a Darth Bane (which makes me think the Batman character with a lightsaber, but anyway) to keep it simple: a Master who would have the most power, and the apprentice to learn. Once the apprentice surpassed the master, he or she would get his/her own apprentice.
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Post by YAKMAN is ICHIBAN on Jun 24, 2010 13:06:37 GMT -5
I wholeheartedly believe that Lucas should not have directed these films. Phantom Menace was the first thing he had directed since the first Star Wars film 22 years earlier. The reigns should have been handed to someone else, especially since Lucas is getting older. I figured it would be a good chance to groom someone as his replacement.
I still would have preferred sequels, based on either the Thrawn trilogy of books or the New Jedi Order books.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Jun 24, 2010 16:35:36 GMT -5
2) The only real reason that he becomes Vader is because he believed Palpatine could help save Padme. Once Padme was dead (dying of a 'broken heart' despite having two kids to raise), he has what reason to be the Emperor's apprentice anymore? He should have either struck down Palpatine or left him completely. Well Palpatine did save his life by retrieving him after Obi Wan left him to die so I could see him staying for that reason. Also, and I think this is some of what Lucas was going for, is that Anakin is now trapped as Vader, both literally trapped in the suit, and also trapped in that he's betrayed all his friends, his wife, wiped out the jedi and destroyed his own life he has no option to follow Palpatine till he can overthrow him. Just as a brief guide, here's how I would have done it. Episode 1: The Jedi find Anakin, who's a teenager, already rough around the edges and cynical because of his life of slavery. Establish Qui-Gon as the ONLY jedi who truly understands him, can train him, and guide him down the light side, he's then killed by Darth Maul who lives at the end. Palpatine is already an important senator, maybe on some kind of high council of the senate. Obi-Wan is a Padwan too, Anakin has more power, Obi-Wan has discipline. Episode 2: Because of the danger of a Sith Lord on the Loose, Palpatine asks for Anakin as his bodyguard, intercut scenes of Obi-Wan trying, and failing to continue Anakin's training as Palpatine slowly twists his mind. The Jedi learn Darth Maul is just the Apprentice, and there's a more powerful Sith Lord out there, and send Obi-Wan to search him out. It climaxes with a final duel where without Obi-Wan knowing, on the orders of Palpatine, executes Maul and becomes Palpatine's new Apprentice in secret. Episode 3: It comes to a climax, Obi-Wan finds out about Palpatine, Anakin has to choose, is manipulated into attacking Obi-Wan, and loses BARELY. This is what Palpatine usesas the justification for order 66, wiping out the Jedi. Throughout, you have the Padme romance, they meet in the first film, date in the second, but Palpatine never approves of her, Anakin's love of her is one of his redeeming features, and won't be shaken, Anakin doesn't kill her, Palpatine arranges an 'accident' and pins it on the Jedi as they were seen leaving the scene(taking the twins to keep them hidden). And there's the prequels as imagined by me.
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Post by Perpetual Nirvana on Jun 24, 2010 17:54:31 GMT -5
I don't get the dislike for Return of the Jedi. Each one of the original movies has something great in its own way. Return of the Jedi has Luke finally as a full Jedi, the entire Jabba's Palace sequence is great, the speeder bike chase, we finally get to see the Emperor, the best light-saber fight in the series. Even the Ewoks are fun - I truly don't understand why some people have a problem with them. That's the point. the Ewoks are cuddly little teddy things. Yet THEY take down the Empire when countless rebels have failed. It's like Santino ending Undertaker's Wrestlemania streak. Aside from that, it's also how familar it all is. We have Tattooine AGAIN, the Death Star AGAIN. Then Boba Fett gets the stupidest death a bad ass Bounty Hunter can, Han doesn't pilot the Falcon (that annoyed me) and the big scary Emperor comes across as a idiot. It was the beginning if the end of the Star Wars francise. All the misteps of the prequels were at least hinted at here.
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Jay Peas 42
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Post by Jay Peas 42 on Jun 24, 2010 22:01:55 GMT -5
It was awesome. Now, as for "Only the Sith deal in absolutes," the emphasis should be on "Deal" Anikan's deal was 1. Join Me, or 2. Die. That was also Palpatine's deal, all the Jedi except for Anikan had to be killed, and that was also his deal to Darth Peligius. Those are absolutes. My only regret is why Yoda and Obi-Wan didn't go after the Emperor after turning Ani into stumpy. I'm sure the expanded universe gave some reason, but surely a tandem attack could take down pruneface.
Modern Fantasy is very clear on this. It takes ten good guys to beat one bad guy, because the bad guys are more powerful. Err, unless Molly Weasley is involved.
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Welfare Willis
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Post by Welfare Willis on Jun 24, 2010 22:20:05 GMT -5
Better is kind of relative. Is it better the part I and II? IMO, yeah. Not as good as the original three, but slightly better. Of course, I think the "UNLIMITTTTTTTTTTED POWAAAAAAAAAAAAR" and "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" lines were really cheesy.
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Post by Cyno on Jun 24, 2010 22:24:04 GMT -5
I actually really liked Episode III. Much more than the first two prequels. I honestly think it's good enough to hang with the original trilogy, even if I prefer all three of those movies to RotS.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Jun 24, 2010 22:28:46 GMT -5
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Post by flatsdomino on Jun 24, 2010 22:40:12 GMT -5
The third, at least, in several scenes showed FLASHES of the greatness of the original trilogy. There was NONE of that in II and very very little in I. george Lucas said something along the lines of "People didn't really want to see the story in I and II. They wanted us to start at 2.5 or 3. They wanted to see Vader, and the beginings of evil. Not kid Anakin." Which is true. The main issue in I and II was that the story itself was just not very compelling, no matter how much crap they tried to throw in there (and believe me, they did throw as MUCH as they could) and that was a major contributor to why it failed. The Star Trek movie gave fans a story they WANTED to see...the Star Wars prequels gave fans the equivalent of getting socks for christmas.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jun 24, 2010 22:46:45 GMT -5
Well Palpatine did save his life by retrieving him after Obi Wan left him to die so I could see him staying for that reason. Also, and I think this is some of what Lucas was going for, is that Anakin is now trapped as Vader, both literally trapped in the suit, and also trapped in that he's betrayed all his friends, his wife, wiped out the jedi and destroyed his own life he has no option to follow Palpatine till he can overthrow him. Just as a brief guide, here's how I would have done it. Episode 1: The Jedi find Anakin, who's a teenager, already rough around the edges and cynical because of his life of slavery. Establish Qui-Gon as the ONLY jedi who truly understands him, can train him, and guide him down the light side, he's then killed by Darth Maul who lives at the end. Palpatine is already an important senator, maybe on some kind of high council of the senate. Obi-Wan is a Padwan too, Anakin has more power, Obi-Wan has discipline. Episode 2: Because of the danger of a Sith Lord on the Loose, Palpatine asks for Anakin as his bodyguard, intercut scenes of Obi-Wan trying, and failing to continue Anakin's training as Palpatine slowly twists his mind. The Jedi learn Darth Maul is just the Apprentice, and there's a more powerful Sith Lord out there, and send Obi-Wan to search him out. It climaxes with a final duel where without Obi-Wan knowing, on the orders of Palpatine, executes Maul and becomes Palpatine's new Apprentice in secret. Episode 3: It comes to a climax, Obi-Wan finds out about Palpatine, Anakin has to choose, is manipulated into attacking Obi-Wan, and loses BARELY. This is what Palpatine usesas the justification for order 66, wiping out the Jedi. Throughout, you have the Padme romance, they meet in the first film, date in the second, but Palpatine never approves of her, Anakin's love of her is one of his redeeming features, and won't be shaken, Anakin doesn't kill her, Palpatine arranges an 'accident' and pins it on the Jedi as they were seen leaving the scene(taking the twins to keep them hidden). And there's the prequels as imagined by me. Not bad, though I'd hate to make Padme's death be one of those "this could've been explained with a simple explanation" situations for Anakin turning. Padme could die in just about any way, and it would serve as a catalyst for Anakin's mind poisoning itself; she could have acted as his main tether keeping him on a good path, "keeping him human", so to speak, and losing her, regardless of who was responsible for it (maybe it could have just happened in childbirth, with Anakin not knowing that the children survived), would drive him over the edge into full on into darkness. The big point I agree on is starting Anakin off as a teen, or at least a 12 year old or something. I know Lucas wanted to have the effect of "Look! This cute, innocent little boy can actually grow to become the most powerful evil force in an entire galaxy!", but it falls completely flat, and there's no bridge connecting Anakin from being an innocent little boy to him becoming emotionally unstable and susceptible to his eventual fall.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Jun 25, 2010 7:57:34 GMT -5
Yeah, while the Jedi COULD have saved his mum too, well, he'll have lived a pretty charmed life for almost 10 years, after being a pretty optimistic kid. He wanted to show anyone could be corrupted, even the sweetest kid, but you need some hints of what could come, you know, foreshadowing.
Plus it makes more sense that he's too old to teach the ways of the force. We've already seen Luke learn in his 20s, how young are they supposed to start? 2?
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Post by YAKMAN is ICHIBAN on Jun 25, 2010 9:03:53 GMT -5
I don't get the dislike for Return of the Jedi. Each one of the original movies has something great in its own way. Return of the Jedi has Luke finally as a full Jedi, the entire Jabba's Palace sequence is great, the speeder bike chase, we finally get to see the Emperor, the best light-saber fight in the series. Even the Ewoks are fun - I truly don't understand why some people have a problem with them. That's the point. the Ewoks are cuddly little teddy things. Yet THEY take down the Empire when countless rebels have failed. It's like Santino ending Undertaker's Wrestlemania streak. If the Undertaker was fighting in a place that Santino was much more familiar with, it is plausible. See also: Vietnam.
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Post by Back to being Cenanuff on Jun 25, 2010 9:11:31 GMT -5
The age thing was because Jedi have to learn to control their fear in order to stay away from the Dark side, and that kind of control has to be taught from a very young age, like 4 or 5.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Jun 25, 2010 11:00:10 GMT -5
I know there's in universe justification, but that came after they made that rule. Like I said, we've seen Luke go through jedi training fine, so to the audience, a 9 year old being rejected as too old doesn't make that much sense.
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Post by Bauertainments on Jun 25, 2010 11:08:00 GMT -5
I watched Ep 3 recently and when The Galactic Empire is starting to form before our very eyes and Anakin is slowly becoming Darth Vader and death and destruction is happening everywhere, it's pretty grim stuff for a Star Wars movie.
And when Obi-Wan shouts "You were my brother, Anakin!", that still kinda gets to me sometimes.
But, when Vader's helmet is put on for the first time and he takes that first deep breath... I snorkin' loved that!...
shame they had to ruin it with "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO"
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erisi236
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Post by erisi236 on Jun 25, 2010 11:25:10 GMT -5
I know there's in universe justification, but that came after they made that rule. Like I said, we've seen Luke go through jedi training fine, so to the audience, a 9 year old being rejected as too old doesn't make that much sense. You get the feeling that Yoda was just kind of half heartedly giving that excuse in ESB anyway, he didn't actually think Luke was too old, he just wanted to zing him a little to if he backed out or if he really wanted it enough.
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The Line
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Post by The Line on Jun 25, 2010 11:51:47 GMT -5
I'm still just so upset that Lucas only seemed to take the established canon of the OT as suggested reading rather than fact(at least in his universe). For example, the biggest one that makes me mad is in episode IV, Obi-Wan says that Luke's father was basically the most badass Jedi ever. They made it sound like he was the Michael Jordan or Lebron James of being a jedi.
But in the prequel trilogy, all he ever does as a jedi is save a queen and kill a bunch of kids and sand people. And even then, he wasn't even really a full jedi, since he was still training under Obi-Wan. He was the most badass Jedi in the universe,for about 5 minutes, tops.
I mean, that's just one example, but it always stuck out to me, and is my biggest gripe with the PT.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jun 25, 2010 12:41:54 GMT -5
I watched Ep 3 recently and when The Galactic Empire is starting to form before our very eyes and Anakin is slowly becoming Darth Vader and death and destruction is happening everywhere, it's pretty grim stuff for a Star Wars movie. And when Obi-Wan shouts "You were my brother, Anakin!", that still kinda gets to me sometimes. But, when Vader's helmet is put on for the first time and he takes that first deep breath... I snorkin' loved that!... shame they had to ruin it with "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" Oh, agreed; the imagery in the second half of Episode 3 is largely quite awesome. It's a lot of what people wanted to see. Just imagine, though, how much bigger an impact it'd have had if we cared more for the characters and the build up to it was handled well? And that problem could've easily been addressed by just calling Episode 2 "The Clone Wars" and using it to show off Anakin's exploits and prowess as a Force prodigy.
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