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Post by Slingshot Suplay on Jun 29, 2010 14:18:16 GMT -5
I don't buy that the Warrior wasn't a good worker. Warrior was still kinda green when he came to the WWF. He was probably rougher than everyone else because of his inexperience, but he improved in the ring and on the mic. I don't think they'd let him in the same ring with Hogan if he didn't. Once he won the World Title, his interviews certainly improved over time. Sure, he wasn't a technical wizard, but he made his character believable and memorable.
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Post by Ultimo Chocula on Jun 29, 2010 22:22:07 GMT -5
When he first showed up around 87-88 he was actually pretty good. He was never going to be Ricky Steamboat but he could actually work a match fairly well. He paced himself, sold well, and actually employed psychology to his matches. I saw house show footage of him wrestling Steve Lombardi and it was actually a well thought out match that worked.
Over time he gradually became the pea brained neanderthal that we all know. You can see it develop year by year as his promos become mored rambling and his matches more chaotic. I just saw his match against Rick Rude at Summerslam 89 and he was already developing the characaristics that we now familiarize ourselves when it comes to the Warrior. When he beat Hogan at WM6, that was the final gasp where you could call yourself a Warrior fan and not hang your head. After that, it all went to pot. He was a parody of himself during his World title run and he was downright laughable.
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Schemer
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Post by Schemer on Jun 29, 2010 23:57:42 GMT -5
Rick Rude: carried him Macho Man: carried him Ted DiBiase: carried him Hulk Hogan: fluke of a good match at WM6 ^^^ This. With Hogan, the match was scripted out in every minor detail by Pat Patterson to cover up for the deficencies they had. Look at how well they worked together in WCW for your answer. Warrior could draw money. Ok, fine. But that does not mean he could work. |
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Post by Snake "The Jake" Roberts on Jun 30, 2010 12:30:06 GMT -5
I don't think the Warrior was bad. He gets too much flak and it's undeserved. His character would not work if he was doing a technical style. For his character, he actually had the perfect style IMO as he was pretty fast and exciting. I'm not really sure what people expected from him. He also had some memorable and good matches against Hogan, Savage, Rude and others. Finally, he had more of the non-wrestling stuff down than anyone else like his look, his entrance, his character, charisma and his promos(say what you want but his promos are memorable). I would rather watch the Warrior than most of today's workers and about 1/2 - 3/4 of the guys of his time. More people should be studying some of the stuff the Warrior doid instead of their favorite japanese or indy wrestler. Agree with all this. Also, It depends on your definition of what a good worker is. To me I would say in his prime he was excellent to great, because to me a worker is someone who can get the crowd going, can inject psychology into the match and can headline, and carry a show. He did all this, His match w/ Savage at WM 7 is probably my fave WM match ever and its becasue both contributed something and worked their butts off, proving A match doesn't need to be a technical masterpiece. His style complimented his character and unfotunately that style didn't always gel with everyone, but that's how it is and this holds for everyone. If Warrior was such a poor worker, he would never be in the position he was in, believe me. |
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Post by Snake "The Jake" Roberts on Jun 30, 2010 12:38:10 GMT -5
Rick Rude: carried him Macho Man: carried him Ted DiBiase: carried him Hulk Hogan: fluke of a good match at WM6 ^^^ This. With Hogan, the match was scripted out in every minor detail by Pat Patterson to cover up for the deficencies they had. Look at how well they worked together in WCW for your answer. Warrior could draw money. Ok, fine. But that does not mean he could work. In the end though, it really comes down to who drew the most $$$ and who was the most memorable and he is among the top of the heap, love him or hate him, you have to give him that all negative things about the man aside. That's all that matters. It doesn't matter if he wasn't the dynamite kid, the fact that he entertained the fans at the time with his in ring "work" and that people were so into his matches and were paying to see him makes him a great worker. Plenty of wrestlers are/were shitty human beings, but we put our emotions aside and can enjoy thier matches. Why can't people do this with Warrior? |
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Post by Snake "The Jake" Roberts on Jun 30, 2010 12:45:24 GMT -5
Over time he gradually became the pea brained neanderthal that we all know. You can see it develop year by year as his promos become mored rambling and his matches more chaotic. I just saw his match against Rick Rude at Summerslam 89 and he was already developing the characaristics that we now familiarize ourselves when it comes to the Warrior. When he beat Hogan at WM6, that was the final gasp where you could call yourself a Warrior fan and not hang your head. After that, it all went to pot. He was a parody of himself during his World title run and he was downright laughable. I hate to come off like a UW apologist, but The same can be said for everyone though. People just get into a comfort zone when they get into the ME spot and stick to what brought them to the dance. Same wiht Cena, the Rock, etc. Plus the zanier the Warrior got the more I enjoyed the character. |
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Post by thesunbeast on Jun 30, 2010 12:59:43 GMT -5
Well actually, even the late John Tenta(RIP) made this same point, that he thought Warrior did a good job whenever he was in the ring with him.
I think the negative attitude towards Warrior's ring work stems from the notion that his ring work should be compared to his star level. Where because he was such a huge star and his ring work as far as workrate was average, the "horrible work" part I think is made by the huge contrast compared to his star level.
Looking back objectively, I think Warrior had better physical ring work than alot of guys at that time and was a better athlete. Mabe he didn't have the proper psychology at first, but towards the latter part of his career he got around that.
From what I can tell, Warrior may have been more average than bad. It seems to me that he had better in ring work than guys like Dino Bravo, Jake Roberts, Warlord, Herculese, General Adnan, and JYD(RIP).
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Post by Snake "The Jake" Roberts on Jun 30, 2010 14:10:10 GMT -5
As far as him botching moves and being dangerous to work with, how so? Did he seriously injure anyone? Marty Jannety was certainly a scary guy to get in the ring with and has probably ended more careers out of sheer disregard and carelessness than anyone, but UW? I always though UW was up there with Hogan as being a generally safe guy in the ring. Maybe he worked "stiff", but I didn't think he was regarded as "dangerous"?
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Totorob101
Hank Scorpio
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Post by Totorob101 on Jun 30, 2010 14:14:10 GMT -5
He was underrated,obviously never going to be known as one of the very best workers in the business but he could get around in the ring and do a good job with the right guy.I dont recall warrior injuring anyone either as said before.Even Chris Jericho said he felt he was underrated in the Warrior self destruction dvd.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2010 16:15:55 GMT -5
Hogan had a lot of good matches in his career, spanning many different companies/countries, so as much as I'm sure it pains people here to admit it, you can say Hogan carried Warrior at WM 6. It's OK to say it. You won't lose your smark card if you do. Or I guess you can always credit Pat Patterson and discredit both Hulk and Warrior simultaneously. Nice.  I always find the Warrior hate amusing. He had good matches with Rude, Savage, and Hogan. Where were Jim Duggan's 5-star matches with Rude and Savage? Where were Dibiase's great/memorable matches with Hogan and Savage? Hogan worked with EVERYONE in the 80's and 90's, and yet one of his best and highest drawing matches was with a guy who "couldn't work". Savage worked with everyone, and yet still today people look back on WM 7 as one of his best matches.....again, against a guy who "couldn't work". Please explain that. Guys like Dibiase get all the praise yet don't have anywhere near the amount of memorable matches that Warrior does. It's a joke. |
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Post by Ultimo Chocula on Jul 1, 2010 16:39:43 GMT -5
Hogan had a lot of good matches in his career, spanning many different companies/countries, so as much as I'm sure it pains people here to admit it, you can say Hogan carried Warrior at WM 6. It's OK to say it. You won't lose your smark card if you do. Or I guess you can always credit Pat Patterson and discredit both Hulk and Warrior simultaneously. Nice. I always find the Warrior hate amusing. He had good matches with Rude, Savage, and Hogan. Where were Jim Duggan's 5-star matches with Rude and Savage? Where were Dibiase's great/memorable matches with Hogan and Savage? Hogan worked with EVERYONE in the 80's and 90's, and yet one of his best and highest drawing matches was with a guy who "couldn't work". Savage worked with everyone, and yet still today people look back on WM 7 as one of his best matches.....again, against a guy who "couldn't work". Please explain that. Guys like Dibiase get all the praise yet don't have anywhere near the amount of memorable matches that Warrior does. It's a joke. You know why Joe Namath is in the Hall of Fame? One good game that happened to be a very big deal. The same applies to the Warrior. |
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Post by Snake "The Jake" Roberts on Jul 2, 2010 11:25:25 GMT -5
Honestly, if Warrior had just kept his mouth shut, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now and people would look back alot more favorably on the guy. In fact, his ablity and spot prob wouldn't be questioned so much.
I look at it kind of like the situation with Mel Gibson. The guy has said some pretty horrible things lately, but I can look past that crap and still enjoy his films and I do the same for UW, I enjoy the matches for what they are.
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Post by quantum on Jul 2, 2010 11:45:16 GMT -5
Hogan had a lot of good matches in his career, spanning many different companies/countries, so as much as I'm sure it pains people here to admit it, you can say Hogan carried Warrior at WM 6. It's OK to say it. You won't lose your smark card if you do. Or I guess you can always credit Pat Patterson and discredit both Hulk and Warrior simultaneously. Nice. I always find the Warrior hate amusing. He had good matches with Rude, Savage, and Hogan. Where were Jim Duggan's 5-star matches with Rude and Savage? Where were Dibiase's great/memorable matches with Hogan and Savage? Hogan worked with EVERYONE in the 80's and 90's, and yet one of his best and highest drawing matches was with a guy who "couldn't work". Savage worked with everyone, and yet still today people look back on WM 7 as one of his best matches.....again, against a guy who "couldn't work". Please explain that. Guys like Dibiase get all the praise yet don't have anywhere near the amount of memorable matches that Warrior does. It's a joke. here here! nicely said |
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Phil Parent
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Post by Phil Parent on Jul 2, 2010 11:51:56 GMT -5
Warrior was good enough a worker, and booked well enough, to make his super entertaining gimmick marketable. Warrior was a better wrestler than, say, Khali.
I'd like to bring consideration to the Slaughter/Warrior match that ended with Slaughter winning the world title. To me, this one and the 4 matches previously mentionned form the elite of Warrior's body of work.
And for whatever reason, Warrior's matches seemed to lead to or grow out of damn epic storylines or angles.
Hulk dramatically hands him his belt. Savage has the emotional reunion with Elizabeth. And he was at the heart of the whole "Slaughter turns Iraqi sympathizer" thing.
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Post by "Playboy" Don Douglas on Jul 2, 2010 13:25:09 GMT -5
Talk in another topic about Survivor Series '90 led to me firing it up as I went to bed last night. Warrior's stuff in his match was pretty bad. He was in there with Ax and just running around blindly. Ax is having to try like hell to throw something that resembles a clothesline or elbow in Warrior's general vicinity so they don't both look like idiots.
Kind of reminded me of why I feel the way I feel about the guy.
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Post by bitteroldman on Jul 2, 2010 17:20:26 GMT -5
A memorable match does not mean it was a good match. Hulk vs. Andre was memorable but I defy anyone to say that it was good.
Dibiase and Rude could wrestle a broom and make the broom look good. Savage was noted for wanting to script every detail prior to the match, Patterson carried both Hogan and UW by scripting the match and then having them rehearse it for weeks before the show.
Seriously, what could UW do in the ring except a clothesline, a gorilla press slam and your basic punch and kick? How can you say someone with such a limited set of moves be called under-rated?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2010 10:11:38 GMT -5
Seriously, what could UW do in the ring except a clothesline, a gorilla press slam and your basic punch and kick? How can you say someone with such a limited set of moves be called under-rated? When people in the wrestling business and the smarter fans of the same business say he deserved none of his success despite drawing in fans and bringing tons of memories for millions of people. In my opinion he was underrated, he wasn't a "great worker" (I hate that phrase) or whatever but he went in with his style and has been said by people who even called him crap, he had memorable and good matches with some big names. His actual wrestling career to me is ultra short given I missed his WCW return run and his WWF return. I admit he probably couldn't control a match pace but he could do as he was told and fans exploded when he hit his key moves in the admittedly few 5 minute+ matches, that's a sign of good timing to me. His internet persona sort of makes me ashamed nowadays but as a worker he was decent enough to follow whilst keeping his charisma on 10. |
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Post by Todd Pettengill on Jul 3, 2010 15:03:12 GMT -5
The first Ultimate Warrior was a great worker, the second Warrior didn't seem to have the heart or energy of his predecessor, and the 3rd Warrior was a complete slob.
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Post by quantum on Jul 4, 2010 15:43:09 GMT -5
The first Ultimate Warrior was a great worker, the second Warrior didn't seem to have the heart or energy of his predecessor, and the 3rd Warrior was a complete slob. ;D |
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dizzy
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Post by dizzy on Jul 10, 2010 3:57:06 GMT -5
Warrior wasn't the best wrestler, but in that era, (as I've said before) you had to entertain first, wrestle second. Warrior is still remembered and for good reason: the guy gave us tons of entertainment and he worked his ass off 28 days a month all over the country to make it happen. All this anti-Warrior rhetoric doesn't sit well with me for that reason. from watching those matches again I've come to this conclusion. Rick Rude: Personally tried to make him look bad (not sure if this is true or not, just my opinion) On Ultimate's shoot interview, he stated that Rick Rude always did exactly the opposite. He said that Rick was more experienced than he but Rude never used that to take advantage. He just wanted to make the match work. Which is amusingly ironic given all the BS that Dibiase has been hurling at Warrior and his ability/appreciation. |
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