The OP
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
changed his name
Posts: 15,785
|
Post by The OP on Jul 11, 2010 16:21:02 GMT -5
I'm gonna have to agree with The Playboy on this one. I don't see how a guy who pretty much all he could do was run around and throw clotheslines and yet managed to be one half of one of the biggest matches in the biggest promotion in history could be considered "underrated". I think he's rated exactly right. He's a guy who was limited in the ring but able to use his look and creativity to great success. He was built as a possible "replacement" for Hogan, but ended up being a flash in the pan. He was in the middle of a pretty solid comeback in WCW but that momentum died down when Hogan/Warrior II failed to deliver the goods. Did I leave anything out?
|
|
AriadosMan
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Your friendly neighborhood superhero
Posts: 15,620
|
Post by AriadosMan on Jul 11, 2010 16:23:33 GMT -5
I'm gonna have to agree with The Playboy on this one. I don't see how a guy who pretty much all he could do was run around and throw clotheslines and yet managed to be one half of one of the biggest matches in the biggest promotion in history could be considered "underrated". I think he's rated exactly right. He's a guy who was limited in the ring but able to use his look and creativity to great success. He was built as a possible "replacement" for Hogan, but ended up being a flash in the pan. He was in the middle of a pretty solid comeback in WCW but that momentum died down when Hogan/Warrior II failed to deliver the goods. Did I leave anything out? Nope. Although Hogan/Warrior II was as much Hogan's fault as it was Warrior's. He still had a limited moveset best suited to YYYEEEAAAHHH squash matches, though.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2010 16:29:28 GMT -5
I'm gonna have to agree with The Playboy on this one. I don't see how a guy who pretty much all he could do was run around and throw clotheslines and yet managed to be one half of one of the biggest matches in the biggest promotion in history could be considered "underrated". I think he's rated exactly right. He's a guy who was limited in the ring but able to use his look and creativity to great success. He was built as a possible "replacement" for Hogan, but ended up being a flash in the pan. He was in the middle of a pretty solid comeback in WCW but that momentum died down when Hogan/Warrior II failed to deliver the goods. Did I leave anything out? Good post, this is how I feel about the matter. It's a shame that Hogan had to be booked against the Warrior, in that if WCW had built Warrior up with squash matches of Destrucity it would have been fun to see him and Goldberg go at it, in a train wreck sort of way of course.
|
|
|
Post by Snake "The Jake" Roberts on Jul 11, 2010 18:15:24 GMT -5
Even if he was only in it for the money, I wouldn't hold it against him. We all have to put a roof over our heads. He had an awesome opportunity and he would have been an idiot to pass it up.
Ironically, I was probably in the demographic for being a UW fan during his first and second run (under 10 yrs) in the WWF and I just never cared for the guy either way and didn't until the 2000s when I took a second look at his stuff. But you know what, The guy could tell a story in the ring and was just an exciting personality that just grabbed viewers and that stuff sells and people loved the big lug. I think sometimes getting the angle across is more important than being a great "wrestler". That's like 90% of wrestling right there.
|
|
|
Post by Snake "The Jake" Roberts on Jul 11, 2010 20:56:09 GMT -5
I'm gonna have to agree with The Playboy on this one. I don't see how a guy who pretty much all he could do was run around and throw clotheslines and yet managed to be one half of one of the biggest matches in the biggest promotion in history could be considered "underrated". I think he's rated exactly right. He's a guy who was limited in the ring but able to use his look and creativity to great success. He was built as a possible "replacement" for Hogan, but ended up being a flash in the pan. He was in the middle of a pretty solid comeback in WCW but that momentum died down when Hogan/Warrior II failed to deliver the goods. Did I leave anything out? Good post, this is how I feel about the matter. It's a shame that Hogan had to be booked against the Warrior, in that if WCW had built Warrior up with squash matches of Destrucity it would have been fun to see him and Goldberg go at it, in a train wreck sort of way of course. yeah, he shouldn't have worked against Hogan right away. He should have shaken someof the ring rust off in short matches and worked his way up. totally agree.
|
|
|
Post by joeskvorecky on Jul 11, 2010 21:01:27 GMT -5
Pat Patterson spent months laying out the Warrior-Hogan match and rehearsing it with them. No way he doesn't deserve FULL credit for that match. That's true. But Patterson was the guy who came up with the finishes to all the matches and probably a lot of the spots and pace as well. He did this for everyone. Doesn't take anything away from Hogan or Warrior, just shows that they could take direction well, unlike some people who are highly rated in terms of ability(Flair). He also came up with most of the Rock's catchphrases, but we don't give him all the credit for his success. Patterson, and other agents, come up with finishes and transitions and talk things through with wrestlers, that's true. But they don't lay out entire matches and spend hours upon hours with people watching them walk through it and hammering their roles into it. It's a testament to his brilliance and their ineptness that that shit was necessary.
|
|
salTy
El Dandy
Posts: 8,425
|
Post by salTy on Jul 11, 2010 23:15:31 GMT -5
The question was is he an underrated worker. The answer is no. But the kids loved him, so he's memorable.
|
|
AriadosMan
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Your friendly neighborhood superhero
Posts: 15,620
|
Post by AriadosMan on Jul 11, 2010 23:16:45 GMT -5
The question was is he an underrated worker. The answer is no. But the kids loved him, so he's memorable. He was memorable, but the thread was claiming his actual matches were underrated. I don't think anyone would dispute that Warrior was memorable.
|
|
salTy
El Dandy
Posts: 8,425
|
Post by salTy on Jul 11, 2010 23:31:01 GMT -5
I'm just saying, we're only debating this to begin with BECAUSE he was so popular. The truth is Warrior is pretty average when compared to other workers at the time. He was worse than guys like Hennig and Savage, but better than guys like Dino Bravo and Tugboat. There was nothing special about what he did in the ring save for how he inadvertently blew himself up before his matches even began. If he had never achieved any more popularity than say, Tito Santana, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
|
|
dizzy
Trap-Jaw
Posts: 477
|
Post by dizzy on Jul 12, 2010 1:14:41 GMT -5
He was memorable, but the thread was claiming his actual matches were underrated. Actually, the thread asks if he was underrated as a worker himself. Warrior was in a number of memorable matches, with Rude, Savage, most notably.
|
|
|
Post by noleafclover1980 on Jul 12, 2010 21:49:25 GMT -5
Wow, this spun off way farther then I intended lol The reason why I made this thread, is so many people give him grief as if he's one of the worst workers of all time. The thing is people say he was limited (obviously he was to an extent) and poibnt to squash matches as the classic "he does a clothesline, a gorilla press and a splash", but mention he HAS had a good amount of classic matches, that get attributed solely to others, and he gets zero credit for them. To me it shows that he... a)took direction well b)can expand his moveset when the need arises (hell in his Orlando Jordon match, he busted out a superplex) and c)ALWAYS showed up with his "A "game when in big time matches.
The point is, a lot of limitations I thibnk were more character then worker based. In his shoot he mentions that yeah, everyone learns the fundementals in training, so he knows how to bump, do more moves then he usually did in a match, but matt based fundementals don't really jive with an interdimensional warrior who destroys everything in his path.
I mean, imagine if all else is the same...
same music, sprints to the ring, shakes the ropes... then goes for a double leg takedown and floats over into an arm bar. Kinda anti-climatic.
|
|
|
Post by Nomad Soul on Oct 19, 2010 19:00:47 GMT -5
I always find the Warrior hate amusing. He had good matches with Rude, Savage, and Hogan. Where were Jim Duggan's 5-star matches with Rude and Savage? Where were Dibiase's great/memorable matches with Hogan and Savage? Hogan worked with EVERYONE in the 80's and 90's, and yet one of his best and highest drawing matches was with a guy who "couldn't work". Savage worked with everyone, and yet still today people look back on WM 7 as one of his best matches.....again, against a guy who "couldn't work". Please explain that. Guys like Dibiase get all the praise yet don't have anywhere near the amount of memorable matches that Warrior does. It's a joke. During his WWF run, DiBiase had a string of **** matches with Savage in 88, a couple of decent matches with Hogan, a good ***+ match with Warrior, a decent match with Jake, and a pair of **** matches with Bret Hart. In addition he dragged a good match out of Virgil and one out of Dustin Rhodes. I only mention this because you are asking where his memorable matches are. He did have them, just that most of them are on SNMEs or at stuff like Wrestlefest '88 rather than on PPVs. Not sure why that is, just the way the cookie crumbles I guess. But it's wrong to say he didn't have good matches. Duggan? Sure don't think he ever had a good match in WWF, but not entirely sure why you mention him.
|
|
|
Post by noleafclover1980 on Oct 20, 2010 1:41:31 GMT -5
Wow, my thread from like 4 months ago got randomly ressurected. Sweet.
|
|
|
Post by thesunbeast on Oct 20, 2010 2:18:25 GMT -5
Warrior progressed over time. IMO, he wasn't that good in the beginning, but towards the end, around 1990-1991 and after, he was pretty good.
There are different kinds of "work", and Warrior was indeed (IMO) a good "worker" for his type of work style after a few years. In 1992 he was at the point where he could work the crowd into a frenzy with the palm of his hand just by doing certain mannerisms in his matches even against other midcarders whereas in 1989 he would have had some difficulty.
There's different kinds of ring psychology too. You have the type of match psychology, where you know when to put the heat on, when to make a comeback, and when to do this move and when to do that move. This kind of psychology, IMO, is where Warrior went from being bad to being so-so.
But you have another type of psychology, a psychology that's about how your kayfabe character should act in certain situations, what your character should look like when he's mad, when he's happy, when he's sad, and how he should react to certain things, and it gets the audience to feel like they know the character by now anticipating what the character would do should he ever be put into so and so situation. This then makes a match more interesting, and so then you can play around with certain spots for maximum effect. It's no different than the Rock grabbing a manager by the collar and holding him there for a few seconds with bugeyes before hauling him into the ring, instead of just throwing him into the ring, as if to say (how DARE you even place your feet onto the same ring as the great one?), or Hogan getting hit in the back and turning around with a grimmace, or Flair giving you a chop to no effect, and then dropping to his knees to beg. I don't know what this type of psychology is called, but I'll call it character knowledge. Warrior mastered this type of psychology in a very short time. I think it was his greatest strength, and I think he's the wrestler that mastered this type of psychology in the shortest time ever, with the Rock being a close second.
|
|
|
Post by noleafclover1980 on Oct 20, 2010 22:21:23 GMT -5
I'd like to also add as far as overall promo work, he really improved in his 2nd comeback and came off as an actual human being... he just got stuck in stupid, go nowhere feuds then left again. Hell, that was pre-attitude, and he was the first wrestler I had ever heard straight up say he was gonna kick someones ass when he threatened Lawler.
|
|
|
Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Oct 21, 2010 18:51:54 GMT -5
Warrior had to be carried to great matches, but at least he can be carried. A lot of today's roster can't even manage that. A lot of former world champions couldn't even manage that.
And Warrior was OVER. MAJORLY over. A lot of people forget that. As a wrestler he may have sucked but the guy could get an audience into a frenzy and for my money being over is the most important thing to any wrestler other than keeping your opponent safe in the ring.
|
|
|
Post by johnnyk9 on Oct 21, 2010 20:08:03 GMT -5
I never liked HHH's remarks about his unprofessionalism, who is HHH to call him that, HHH was the unprofessional one, you get to work a big star on his comeback match at WM, I would be honored to be squashed by the Warrior and HHH has his ego problem, oh please.
|
|
JMA
Hank Scorpio
Down With Capitalism!
Posts: 6,880
|
Post by JMA on Oct 21, 2010 21:48:49 GMT -5
No. Not at all.
He's actually PROPERLY rated--not over or under.
|
|
|
Post by baerrtt on Oct 22, 2010 7:59:20 GMT -5
I never liked HHH's remarks about his unprofessionalism, who is HHH to call him that, HHH was the unprofessional one, you get to work a big star on his comeback match at WM, I would be honored to be squashed by the Warrior and HHH has his ego problem, oh please. HHH knew he was going to lose the match as that was the plan. What he didn't care for, and it's his right to express that, was going from a competitive contest that would have showcased him to a squash that Warrior asked for on the DAY of Mania 12 simply because he hadn't been in the ring for awhile. Why when they were first matched up together months before didn't he express this concern to Vince?
|
|
|
Post by repoman123 on Oct 22, 2010 9:29:03 GMT -5
He was crap in the ring, but was a brilliant entertainer. I enjoyed lots of the feuds he had. Ones that spring to mind are the one with Sgt Slaughter at Royal Rumble 1992, which resulted in a good feud with Macho Man, his feud with Hogan was good. I also remember thoroughly enjoying his beef with Papa Shango... but I don't actually remember their fight at all.
Honky Tonk Man is one of my favourites, so I didn't really appreciate that Warrior beat him in less than a minute!
|
|