unc40
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 3,635
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Post by unc40 on Apr 21, 2011 19:57:13 GMT -5
I find it hard to believe that there are wrestlers who only desire is to be jobbers or midcarders. Thats like someone who goes to college, gets a business degree and on being offered a job is told they will never get promoted and that person is happy with it.
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Greer
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Post by Greer on Apr 21, 2011 20:08:39 GMT -5
DBD didn't train to sit backstage with the Bellas and read books. He trained to wrestle. The man is never on TV and when he is, it's a squash match. Do you watch the same show I do? Because that's really far removed from reality. He's on TV almost every week, and rarely in squash matches. Really? Whenever I saw him on Raw he was backstage with Gail or the Bellas, getting a jobber entrance, getting owned by Sheamus and/or Miz, or teaming with a random wrestler in a match that means nothing. The guy is the best wrestler in the world. Can he at least get a storyline or match that is worth a damn? Would you put Lebron on the bench and play him 10 minutes a game? OR would you have him out there doing what he does best, which is be the best basketball player in the world?
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Post by Son of Abyss on Apr 21, 2011 20:09:17 GMT -5
Guys usually have to move to Florida for developmental. For someone with a family and a decent regular job this is a huge choice to make with no promise of making it to the main roster. Sometimes you gotta choose stability over chasing a dream and just have fun wrestling on the side.
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Post by lockedontarget on Apr 21, 2011 20:09:44 GMT -5
Personally, I would rather be paid a decent wage doing something I enjoy, over a great wage doing something I hate.
But I don't really fault people who go for the big paycheck, either.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Apr 21, 2011 20:25:54 GMT -5
Travel as you said, the fact that your life isn't really your own- it's not as if they just wrestle and have the rest of the day to themselves-as much as you're a 'superstar' 24/7. The fact that as an independent contractor, you can be let go for any reason; little to no health benefits or retirement plan/financial future considerations..
There are all kinds of good reasons. The WWE isn't for everyone.
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Post by Red Impact on Apr 21, 2011 20:41:15 GMT -5
Do you watch the same show I do? Because that's really far removed from reality. He's on TV almost every week, and rarely in squash matches. Really? Whenever I saw him on Raw he was backstage with Gail or the Bellas, getting a jobber entrance, getting owned by Sheamus and/or Miz, or teaming with a random wrestler in a match that means nothing. The guy is the best wrestler in the world. Can he at least get a storyline or match that is worth a damn? Would you put Lebron on the bench and play him 10 minutes a game? OR would you have him out there doing what he does best, which is be the best basketball player in the world? The guy has been on TV almost every week since he came back, which is pretty impressive considering that it's usually the ME only that gets there every week. Usually, he's in a competitive match there. He's competed with and beaten both current and former WWE champions, won a championship, and was put in the ME upon return. So yeah, really.
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randomranter
Dennis Stamp
When you grow up....... YOU'RE GONNA BE WROOOOOONG!!!!
Posts: 4,804
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Post by randomranter on Apr 21, 2011 21:04:15 GMT -5
I find it hard to believe that there are wrestlers who only desire is to be jobbers or midcarders. Thats like someone who goes to college, gets a business degree and on being offered a job is told they will never get promoted and that person is happy with it. I am currently in that position. I have turned down promotions simply because the increase in pay was not worth the increase in responsibility and stress. Plus, I enjoy what I do now. My responsibilities include being able to get out of the office and provide field support for several districts. A promotion would mean being to a desk for 40 hours a week, countless hours and phone calls with a whole bunch of suits that I want nothing to do with, and increased stress due to being responsible for a bunch of crap at a level that I really want nothing to do with. Sure, I'm not bringing home the big bucks, and I do wish I had more money. But if it means sitting behind a desk doing something I hate, then I'm perfectly happy staying right where I am. I could picture some wrestlers being that way. It was strongly suggested that Owen Hart wanted to quietly retire and escape the public eye. Eddie Guerrero allegedly didn't handle the pressure of being at the top very well. Kane is said to like being in JTTS role due to not having the pressure to carry the show and to be able to just go out there and have fun. Dusty Rhodes said in one interview that he liked going from being head booker to just a random midcarder because of the lack of stress and ability to just have fun out there. That being said, I'm willing to bet that a lot of the people who say that they don't want to be in the WWE are saying it just because they know they're not good enough to make it. But of course, this is a business where you've gotta promote yourself, and saying "I don't want the WWE" sounds a HELL of a lot better than "The WWE doesn't want me". While I do believe that there are some out there who really do want to stick to the indies (for a variety of reasons), I'm sure they're outnumbered by the ones who simply aren't good enough for the WWE but just want to make themselves sound better. If you were to offer these guys a developmental deal and a real shot at the WWE, I'm sure 9 out of 10 would be all over it like flies on shit.
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Greer
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Post by Greer on Apr 21, 2011 21:04:38 GMT -5
Really? Whenever I saw him on Raw he was backstage with Gail or the Bellas, getting a jobber entrance, getting owned by Sheamus and/or Miz, or teaming with a random wrestler in a match that means nothing. The guy is the best wrestler in the world. Can he at least get a storyline or match that is worth a damn? Would you put Lebron on the bench and play him 10 minutes a game? OR would you have him out there doing what he does best, which is be the best basketball player in the world? The guy has been on TV almost every week since he came back, which is pretty impressive considering that it's usually the ME only that gets there every week. Usually, he's in a competitive match there. He's competed with and beaten both current and former WWE champions, won a championship, and was put in the ME upon return. So yeah, really. Oh yes and let's not forget about that tremendous Wrestlemania match with Sheamus...oh wait. Well let's not forget about the great rematch they had the night after on RAW...oh wait. The point is, he is THE BEST WRESTLER IN THE WORLD. He should be able to showcase his talent on the big stage at a high level. The guy was only in the ME of Summerslam because it connected to the Nexus angle. It wasn't a one on one match. There was room to add a guy like him in that main event. Plus he shouldn't have been fired in the first place. Besides, that was almost a year ago. He was immediately shot back down to being a jobber. Sure he hasn't been treated like Yoshi Tatsu or anything, but when you are the very best at your job, while being a complete professional and being a company guy...you deserve a little better. Like I said...would you put Lebron James on your bench and play him a few minutes every game? Or would you play him 40 minutes a game and let him do what he does best? Oh..and let's stop acting like titles mean anything at this point, because they don't. A US title reign means about as much as a Divas title reign.
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Post by dh03grad on Apr 21, 2011 21:12:28 GMT -5
Really? Whenever I saw him on Raw he was backstage with Gail or the Bellas, getting a jobber entrance, getting owned by Sheamus and/or Miz, or teaming with a random wrestler in a match that means nothing. The guy is the best wrestler in the world. Can he at least get a storyline or match that is worth a damn? Would you put Lebron on the bench and play him 10 minutes a game? OR would you have him out there doing what he does best, which is be the best basketball player in the world? The guy has been on TV almost every week since he came back, which is pretty impressive considering that it's usually the ME only that gets there every week. Usually, he's in a competitive match there. He's competed with and beaten both current and former WWE champions, won a championship, and was put in the ME upon return. So yeah, really. The more hes been on TV, the less of a deal hes been. He went from being in that main event in August, beating Miz and Morrison in Sept, to being a part of Apple in April and being an afterthought. As an independent contractor, your character is all you have, and you have to protect such at all costs. Depends on the wrestler.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Apr 21, 2011 21:14:41 GMT -5
I find it hard to believe that there are wrestlers who only desire is to be jobbers or midcarders. Thats like someone who goes to college, gets a business degree and on being offered a job is told they will never get promoted and that person is happy with it. some people just like to be on TV. and I bet you Evan Bourne gets paid way better than he would on the indies. not everyone is obsessed with being "the guy". some people (myself included) would be happy with a decent paycheque. I tell you, if I had the physique/skills for it I'd love to be a full-time jobber ala Val Venis.
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Post by James McCloud IS John Godot on Apr 21, 2011 21:18:23 GMT -5
I find it hard to believe that there are wrestlers who only desire is to be jobbers or midcarders. Thats like someone who goes to college, gets a business degree and on being offered a job is told they will never get promoted and that person is happy with it. Most people don't get many promotions, if any at all. There's far more room at the bottom than at the top. Some people just make a decent paycheque doing something they don't hate or have an aptitude for, wrestling included. Sure, almost everyone would like to be on top, but if everyone quit their jobs because they were unlikely to become CEOs, that would be insane.
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Post by N E O G E O B O Y S on Apr 21, 2011 21:20:31 GMT -5
Because they don't care about money or fame and just love to wrestle...? And don't want to be stuck with the stigma of a wretch-inducing gimmick ala Eugene or Red Rooster. Except the guy who portrayed eugene? Wasn't that a dinsmore idea?
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Post by Red Impact on Apr 21, 2011 21:21:34 GMT -5
You said he's a jobber who is never on TV unless it's a squash match. I replied that that's not the case at all and that he's had competitive matches on TV pretty often. He's had competitive matches against Sheamus and the Miz. He's appeared most every week since he came back. Nothing you said has challenged that. You can be upset that you think he should be WWE champion by now, but the fact is, he's not a jobber, he's on TV nearly every week, and you're ignoring what he does just because you're not happy that they don't devote more to him. I'm not saying you should like the way he's booked, I'm saying he's not nearly as badly off as you make him out to be. He's not Zack Ryder. He's not Yoshi Tatsu. He's a mainstay on Raw even if they don't have him competing for the WWE title every month. They could do more, but smaller guys almost never get monster pushes from the start (unless they're an easy merch mover like Sin Cara, although it's not like he's WC either). He's not been with the company long at all. And pro wrestling isn't like the NBA, so that analogy is meaningless. The guy has been on TV almost every week since he came back, which is pretty impressive considering that it's usually the ME only that gets there every week. Usually, he's in a competitive match there. He's competed with and beaten both current and former WWE champions, won a championship, and was put in the ME upon return. So yeah, really. The more hes been on TV, the less of a deal hes been. He went from being in that main event in August, beating Miz and Morrison in Sept, to being a part of Apple in April and being an afterthought. As an independent contractor, your character is all you have, and you have to protect such at all costs. Depends on the wrestler. I'm not saying people have to be completely satisfied with the way he's booked (although in some cases, people seem to expect him to get pushed more than any smaller guys do in their first year), just that calling him a jobber who only appears in squash matches is false.
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Post by Red Impact on Apr 21, 2011 21:27:51 GMT -5
And don't want to be stuck with the stigma of a wretch-inducing gimmick ala Eugene or Red Rooster. Except the guy who portrayed eugene? Wasn't that a dinsmore idea? Yeah, it was. Hence why he still uses it in the indies.
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Greer
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Post by Greer on Apr 21, 2011 21:45:04 GMT -5
You said he's a jobber who is never on TV unless it's a squash match. I replied that that's not the case at all and that he's had competitive matches on TV pretty often. He's had competitive matches against Sheamus and the Miz. He's appeared most every week since he came back. Nothing you said has challenged that. You can be upset that you think he should be WWE champion by now, but the fact is, he's not a jobber, he's on TV nearly every week, and you're ignoring what he does just because you're not happy that they don't devote more to him. I'm not saying you should like the way he's booked, I'm saying he's not nearly as badly off as you make him out to be. He's not Zack Ryder. He's not Yoshi Tatsu. He's a mainstay on Raw even if they don't have him competing for the WWE title every month. They could do more, but smaller guys almost never get monster pushes from the start (unless they're an easy merch mover like Sin Cara, although it's not like he's WC either). He's not been with the company long at all. And pro wrestling isn't like the NBA, so that analogy is meaningless. The more hes been on TV, the less of a deal hes been. He went from being in that main event in August, beating Miz and Morrison in Sept, to being a part of Apple in April and being an afterthought. As an independent contractor, your character is all you have, and you have to protect such at all costs. Depends on the wrestler. I'm not saying people have to be completely satisfied with the way he's booked (although in some cases, people seem to expect him to get pushed more than any smaller guys do in their first year), just that calling him a jobber who only appears in squash matches is false. When was the last real competitive match he's been in really? The NBA analogy works. It's saying you have the best person at their job and you barely play him and allow him to showcase himself and better your team/company. Please explain how that analogy doesn't work. I never ever once said he should be WWE Champion. I am simply saying he is not as well off as you make him out to be. On the RAW pecking order, he is near the bottom rung at this point. Not AT the bottom, but certainly NEAR it. I am not saying DBD should be in every main event, winning every title and he should be the face of the WWE. Just give the guy a little more than what he has been getting for being as talented and professional as he is. All the stuff you have mentioned took place months ago in regards to his mini push. A storyline with the Bellas that pretty much dragged on for months without any reason is pretty pointless. Being on TV every week doesn't mean anything. Your main argument seems to be: Well the guy is on TV every week, therefore everything is ok. Ted Dibiase was on every week, so what's your point? Ted Dibiase is a joke at this point...but he was on tv every week so its ok. It's not just about how often we see you...it's also about what you do when we see you.
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randomranter
Dennis Stamp
When you grow up....... YOU'RE GONNA BE WROOOOOONG!!!!
Posts: 4,804
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Post by randomranter on Apr 21, 2011 21:56:54 GMT -5
Just to add a bit of fuel to the fire...
DBD's US title run dragged on way too long, had absolutely no memorable or noteworthy matches (There's a difference between good, memorable, and noteworthy), and was almost entirely forgettable. Further, as stated above, titles mean absolutely nothing any more. Virtually everybody on the card has held at least one title at some point recently. A title run -- even a long one -- is no longer an indication of how successful you are in the business. These days, everybody gets a turn.
Apart from his feud with Miz, every storyline he's been involved in has gone absolutely nowhere. His "Losing Streak" on NXT led to nothing. His feud with Cole never evolved into anything. They set up this long storyline with him, the Bellas, and eventually Gail Kim that went absolutely nowhere and was quickly dropped. They don't even mention the Lebelle Lock that much any more. And (fortunately) that whole "Apple" thing lasted a week before someone in back finally realized how stupid it was.
He was dropped from Wrestlemania. Even his pre-WM match with Sheamus for the US belt was essentially scrapped and turned into their annual pointless battle royal.
Sure, he's on TV a lot (and no, not 'every week'). But lately, his TV appearances have increasingly become nothing more than him being on the wrong end of a jobber match, or being shoehorned into some pointless and forgettable tag team match.
Some people need to stop looking at their IWC darlings through rose-colored glasses. He doesn't have a solid position on the card, and his "spot" could easily be filled in by anyone at all. Seriously. You could put Yoshi Tatsu in his spot right now and accomplish the exact same thing.
To be honest, if I were him, I wouldn't be answering my phone once the spring cleaning rolls around.
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Post by Sparvid on Apr 21, 2011 22:04:04 GMT -5
Also backstage politics. Face facts, politics come into things in every facet of life. You play politics digging ditches or as the CEO of the biggest company on the planet. Some people will not compromise or do this. IIRC, there was a Diva who left developmental because she got tired of the politics in FCW.
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Post by Red Impact on Apr 21, 2011 22:40:42 GMT -5
When was the last real competitive match he's been in really? With Sheamus right before Wrestlemania. The NBA analogy works. It's saying you have the best person at their job and you barely play him and allow him to showcase himself and better your team/company. Please explain how that analogy doesn't work. Why doesn't it work? Because the focus is different. Basketball is a sport, and in a sport you have one singular goal, to win. So you build your roster around that goal. You split your talent between starters and bench (and yes, you might bench players who are better than starters if you want that presence off the bench or the situation makes it more suitable) and you have that one goal. Wrestling's not a sport, it's a show. There's no "winning." It's all about advancing the product, and in some cases the more technically gifted may not be as marketable to the company. Thus, guys like Regal, who are talented but who don't move merch, get put on the back burner. If Daniel Bryan was the best player in the NBA, I'd play them. Being a highly technically skilled wrestler doesn't necessarily equate to high levels of success in the WWE. Hence why Ultimate Warrior is more famous than Lance Storm. I never ever once said he should be WWE Champion. I am simply saying he is not as well off as you make him out to be. On the RAW pecking order, he is near the bottom rung at this point. Not AT the bottom, but certainly NEAR it. And I'm simply saying that your claim that "The man is never on TV and when he is, it's a squash match" is false. And I disagree that he's near the bottom. He's nowhere near the main event, but about half the wrestlers on the Raw roster haven't even appeared on Raw in months, and even some of those that do appear aren't booked to look anything close to good (like the current Nexus). Being on TV every week doesn't mean anything. It means your statement that he's never on TV is wrong, which is exactly the point I was trying to make. You're trying to make more of it, but it's really as simple as that. You don't like how he's booked, so you've exaggerated how bad things are for him. Some people need to stop looking at their IWC darlings through rose-colored glasses. I'd say that people also need to quit over-dramatizing their IWC darling's spots because they don't like how they're booked. Bryan isn't one of my darlings (I find him fun to watch on Raw, but I had no expectations or aspirations for the guy when he came in nor was I familiar with his indy work), but he's a far cry from being a jobber and is nowhere near the worst off of their performers. Also, I never said he was on every week, just nearly every week, and that was in response to someone complaining that he was never on.
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Post by drjayphd (feat. Pitbull) on Apr 21, 2011 22:59:37 GMT -5
He was dropped from Wrestlemania. Even his pre-WM match with Sheamus for the US belt was essentially scrapped and turned into their annual pointless battle royal. Sure, he's on TV a lot (and no, not 'every week'). But lately, his TV appearances have increasingly become nothing more than him being on the wrong end of a jobber match, or being shoehorned into some pointless and forgettable tag team match. Some people need to stop looking at their IWC darlings through rose-colored glasses. He doesn't have a solid position on the card, and his "spot" could easily be filled in by anyone at all. Seriously. You could put Yoshi Tatsu in his spot right now and accomplish the exact same thing. To be honest, if I were him, I wouldn't be answering my phone once the spring cleaning rolls around. My, aren't we over-dramatic. I don't think he's in any danger (if he was, he wouldn't even be on TV in the first place) and maybe he's just not that much of a mark for himself. One of the nice things about message boards is it shows that a certain segment of the fans probably care a lot more about a wrestler's portrayal than the wrestler himself. Never asked Bryan about it, but he might just be fine getting paid and working in a different environment, putting on good matches under a different set of rules. Which leads me to... I find it hard to believe that there are wrestlers who only desire is to be jobbers or midcarders. Thats like someone who goes to college, gets a business degree and on being offered a job is told they will never get promoted and that person is happy with it. More like someone who goes to college, gets a degree and gets offered a middle management job at Google. There's something very different about being a midcarder and being a midcarder in the biggest wrestling company in the world.
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Greer
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Post by Greer on Apr 21, 2011 23:06:37 GMT -5
When was the last real competitive match he's been in really? With Sheamus right before Wrestlemania. Why doesn't it work? Because the focus is different. Basketball is a sport, and in a sport you have one singular goal, to win. So you build your roster around that goal. You split your talent between starters and bench (and yes, you might bench players who are better than starters if you want that presence off the bench or the situation makes it more suitable) and you have that one goal. Wrestling's not a sport, it's a show. There's no "winning." It's all about advancing the product, and in some cases the more technically gifted may not be as marketable to the company. Thus, guys like Regal, who are talented but who don't move merch, get put on the back burner. If Daniel Bryan was the best player in the NBA, I'd play them. Being a highly technically skilled wrestler doesn't necessarily equate to high levels of success in wrestling. And I'm simply saying that your claim that "The man is never on TV and when he is, it's a squash match" is false. And I disagree that he's near the bottom. He's nowhere near the main event, but about half the wrestlers on the Raw roster haven't even appeared on Raw in months, and even some of those that do appear aren't booked to look anything close to good (like the current Nexus). Being on TV every week doesn't mean anything. It means your statement that he's never on TV is wrong, which is exactly the point I was trying to make. You're trying to make more of it, but it's really as simple as that. You don't like how he's booked, so you've exaggerated how bad things are for him. With sports it is still very similar. For the WWE, the "winning" goal is being a successful company that people will watch and give money to. If you let DBD go out there and do what he does best, I'm sure viewers will be interested and want to cheer for his character. If they cheer and want to see his character more and more, they will buy his merch. Did anyone think Rocky Maivia would be marketable? Of course not. But then they let him do what he does best and became a huge star which in turn was a success for the company. Making money, and getting fans = winning for the WWE. You say a it's a show, which it is. Well what is the goal of a television show? Gaining a lot of viewers, getting new fans, keeping old fans and making money off of the show. How do you do that? You create interesting stories with characters people like, or begin to like, or have an interest in. Fans have shown interest in DBD but the WWE obviously hasn't listened. So now...pin drops when he comes out at this point. My argument is that being on TV every week does not help get you over or put you in good standing. Besides that...he is NOT on tv every week, and many weeks he is on tv, it's a pointless tag match or a stupid segment. Sure every match isn't a squash, but most of them are pointless tv matches with no story or reason to be happening. A 5 minute TV match with a random opponent might as well be a squash match. Actually no I take that back. At least in a squash match SOMEBODY is supposed to get over. DBD and Mark Henry vs Tyson Kidd and Ted Dibiase, for example. The match goes 5 minutes. Both teams get jobber entrances and the match is forgotten about 10 minutes later. What was the point? I don't like how he is booked but have not blown anything out of proportion. He is just a body to fill a spot anyone could fill. Simple as that.
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