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Post by joebob27 on May 19, 2011 0:55:15 GMT -5
Yeah, that was the classic "WWE can do no wrong" post. These guys pay for tons of work-related expenses out of their pay, except what they're contractually obligated to get, and even that is later on in their career out of negotiations.
Now they can add another expense and it's going to be a pretty expensive expense, considering some guys on the roster probably make 5 figures, and woe be on anyone making Matt Striker money.
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Post by Jacob Lee on May 19, 2011 1:17:11 GMT -5
Yeah, Vince is a real jerk for forcing these guys to prepare for a life after wrestling. Let us all bash the evil Vince McMahon as he pays for any injury that takes place in the ring and pays his performers more than the majority of mixed martial artists who compete in a legit sport! Damn him for toning down the in ring product, taking away chair shots and trying to get these guys to spend their money on something that actually matters like health insurance. You know what really disgusts me about this man? The fact that he pays for any talent who's ever been on his roster to go to rehab on his dime...even if they only worked there briefly. THIS MAN IS SATAN! THE HORROR! Did you read the discussion, or did you just see the title and decide to make a "point". Some of those guys will have difficulty paying for the insurance due to their line of work and the pay they receive, seeing as many of them have to pay for their own airfare and hotels. Sigh. It's not as expensive as you're making it out to be. Life is about sacrifice and part of that sacrifice is unfortunately insurance. I hate paying it as much as the next guy, but I was sure glad when that drunk driver hit me! The "point" is that some people here seem to think "guaranteed contract for $40,000" means a guy is ONLY paid that. Sorry, but that's not true. Guaranteed means you will not be paid UNDER that. Also, if you're getting paid $40,000 and they aren't using you then I'd call that a pretty sweet deal! These guys are making way more money than you are implying. Fiscal responsibility needs to be taught to these guys. If your body is your instrument of work then it simply must be insured.
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Post by Jacob Lee on May 19, 2011 1:18:41 GMT -5
Yeah, that was the classic "WWE can do no wrong" post. These guys pay for tons of work-related expenses out of their pay, except what they're contractually obligated to get, and even that is later on in their career out of negotiations. Now they can add another expense and it's going to be a pretty expensive expense, considering some guys on the roster probably make 5 figures, and woe be on anyone making Matt Striker money. WWE does tons of wrong things. I'm just saying that forcing people to get insurance is the smart thing to do in a line of work where they use their bodies. Otherwise they'll be in a sad situation in their 50's. Or have you not noticed all the wrestler deaths in the last 15 years?
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Post by ampunk on May 19, 2011 1:33:09 GMT -5
I'm pretty amazed at the number of people who hate wrestlers posting in this thread.
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Post by joebob27 on May 19, 2011 1:36:43 GMT -5
Yeah, that was the classic "WWE can do no wrong" post. These guys pay for tons of work-related expenses out of their pay, except what they're contractually obligated to get, and even that is later on in their career out of negotiations. Now they can add another expense and it's going to be a pretty expensive expense, considering some guys on the roster probably make 5 figures, and woe be on anyone making Matt Striker money. WWE does tons of wrong things. I'm just saying that forcing people to get insurance is the smart thing to do in a line of work where they use their bodies. Otherwise they'll be in a sad situation in their 50's. Or have you not noticed all the wrestler deaths in the last 15 years? They're forcing wrestlers to get health insurance but not actually paying for it, or helping them pay for it. They were picking up medical tabs in the past, above and beyond, no? Well, not anymore. It's a budget cut move, something they've gotten extremely good at, as they continue to turn a profit despite revenue draining. Alot of these guys on lower end deals and developmental deals are going to have a hard time finding insurance that is affordable considering all of their other out-of-pocket expenses. Like I said, I'm not really taking an opinion on it one way or another. The wrestlers know what the WWE's business model is regarding their employees, and if they didn't, they must be totally out to lunch.
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Post by Jacob Lee on May 19, 2011 1:42:02 GMT -5
WWE does tons of wrong things. I'm just saying that forcing people to get insurance is the smart thing to do in a line of work where they use their bodies. Otherwise they'll be in a sad situation in their 50's. Or have you not noticed all the wrestler deaths in the last 15 years? They're forcing wrestlers to get health insurance but not actually paying for it, or helping them pay for it. They were picking up medical tabs in the past, above and beyond, no? Well, not anymore. Where does it state they're going to stop paying for injuries and such? I have not heard of any such news.
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Post by joebob27 on May 19, 2011 1:47:45 GMT -5
They're forcing wrestlers to get health insurance but not actually paying for it, or helping them pay for it. They were picking up medical tabs in the past, above and beyond, no? Well, not anymore. Where does it state they're going to stop paying for injuries and such? I have not heard of any such news. If they require the talent to get a certain quality of health insurance, they won't have to pay for it anymore. So, thus they can say they'll pay above and beyond, since there's no situation where they will, unless something really awful happens. Now, playing fence-sitter, if all they're requiring the talent to do is get cheapo health insurance with a low cap, yeah, then you're right, they'll be paying out of pocket. We'll see, this looks like a pretty clever way to not have to be on the hook for big medical bills, since any good health insurance paid for by the talent should cover it.
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Post by Jacob Lee on May 19, 2011 2:07:44 GMT -5
Where does it state they're going to stop paying for injuries and such? I have not heard of any such news. If they require the talent to get a certain quality of health insurance, they won't have to pay for it anymore. So, thus they can say they'll pay above and beyond, since there's no situation where they will, unless something really awful happens. Now, playing fence-sitter, if all they're requiring the talent to do is get cheapo health insurance with a low cap, yeah, then you're right, they'll be paying out of pocket. We'll see, this looks like a pretty clever way to not have to be on the hook for big medical bills, since any good health insurance paid for by the talent should cover it. You make some good points there. If it turns out that WWE stops paying for the big injuries (like neck fusions) then this would be a terrible thing. However, I think we should all understand that regardless of who's right or who's wrong or regardless of who should or should not pay the bill that these guys simply HAVE to be insured one way or another. Their profession usually doesn't produce long careers and being insured is essential in their case.
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mentol
AC Slater
back for blood
Posts: 206
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Post by mentol on May 19, 2011 2:45:44 GMT -5
with news like this,i hate WWE more every day,billion dolar company spare money,OUCH!!!
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Post by Citizen Zero on May 19, 2011 3:03:23 GMT -5
I love how dishwashers and garbage men are better taken care of than the average WWE wrestler but that's hunky dory because they have to 'make sacrifices'.
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Post by Jacob Lee on May 19, 2011 4:27:43 GMT -5
I love how dishwashers and garbage men are better taken care of than the average WWE wrestler but that's hunky dory because they have to 'make sacrifices'. Let's try and keep the hyperbole to a minimum. First, there's nobody making minimum wage as a dishwasher that has their health insurance covered by their employer. Try and stick within reality here. Second, garbage men provide a state service and are government workers so your argument in this case is once again silly and over the top. When I said "making sacrifices" I was obviously referencing that we all have to (at least where I live) go out of our way to pay for insurance when our employer doesn't provide it. I never said it was right, but that it was reality. Back to reality, somebody already made the great point that around 2015 the laws of insurance (in the United States) will change drastically and WWE may eventually be forced to cover aspects of it then. That is a great point and that poster deserves credit for sticking within reality to make a good point. Perhaps they are anticipating a challenge to the "independent contractor" term they constantly use from the government?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2011 6:30:32 GMT -5
This is not a good move. I'm all for wrestlers having insurance but let's face it, they aren't independent contractors. McMahon should be picking up the tab OR allow them to actually be independent. He's trying to have it both ways and that's bulls*** for the wrestlers. Vince: Congratulations! We'll be paying for the insurance from now on, so you don't have to spend X amount of dollars/month on it. Wrestlers: Yay! Vince: Oh, and coincidentally, your monthly pay is now X amount of dollars lower. This is what people need to understand. If Vince provided insurance for every employee....er, I mean "independent contractor", then the salaries for each worker would drop tremendously due to Vince's added expense. Temps in my company make a lot more hourly than employees. Why? Because employees have insurance covered by the company. With that said, it still is a shitty move because wrestlers are not independent contractors. This is Vince trying to dodge the system, which he has done successfully for years and years, and will continue to do so from the looks of it.
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Post by Red Impact on May 19, 2011 6:32:50 GMT -5
I love how dishwashers and garbage men are better taken care of than the average WWE wrestler but that's hunky dory because they have to 'make sacrifices'. What restaurant gives dishwashers full health benefits? More importantly, where can I get it? I've yet to work in a restaurant that' given me any benefits at all, or pay me enough to get my own.
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Post by Confused Mark Wahlberg on May 19, 2011 6:40:24 GMT -5
I think dishwashers are encouraged to use Palmolive, which soften hands while you do dishes.
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nonrev
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,303
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Post by nonrev on May 19, 2011 7:15:58 GMT -5
I work in a restaurant and doing dishes is one of my jobs. If I was a full-time employee I could sign up for the health-insurance plan which would only take out about $15 per month from my pay. Sigh. It's not as expensive as you're making it out to be. Life is about sacrifice and part of that sacrifice is unfortunately insurance. I hate paying it as much as the next guy, but I was sure glad when that drunk driver hit me! The "point" is that some people here seem to think "guaranteed contract for $40,000" means a guy is ONLY paid that. Sorry, but that's not true. Guaranteed means you will not be paid UNDER that. Also, if you're getting paid $40,000 and they aren't using you then I'd call that a pretty sweet deal! These guys are making way more money than you are implying. Fiscal responsibility needs to be taught to these guys. If your body is your instrument of work then it simply must be insured. $40,000 is what they make before taxes. As "independent contractors" they have to pay a lot more than what an employee who takes home 40,000 a year makes. After a good chunk of that $40,000 is out of the way due to federal taxes, they have state taxes to worry about which cuts it down even further. They also have travel and lodging expenses to maintain out of their own pockets (everything except oversees trips) which considerably weighs them down if their on the road for 250+ days a year. Now with whatever's left of their salary out of the blue they are told they are required to buy health insurance in a profession that has possibly one of the highest risks of injury ever. Premiums would be through the roof, and would destroy most of the undercard's finances (hell even the mid and upper midcard would feel the hurt. I agree that wrestlers should be insured, but just forcing them to bite the bullet and risk financial bankruptcy by forcing them to pay for insurance without helping pay for it is a giant dick move. It smells entirely of PR solely to counter the UFC coverage which was just announced a few weeks ago. I'm thinking this will be a way to do spring cleaning without actually having to fire people.
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Post by RI Richmark on May 19, 2011 7:20:22 GMT -5
I think dishwashers are encouraged to use Palmolive, which soften hands while you do dishes. But do they have to pay for it themselves or does the restaurant already provide it?
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Dr. T is an alien
Patti Mayonnaise
Knows when to hold them, knows when to fold them
I've been found out!
Posts: 31,375
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on May 19, 2011 7:50:27 GMT -5
Vince: Congratulations! We'll be paying for the insurance from now on, so you don't have to spend X amount of dollars/month on it. Wrestlers: Yay! Vince: Oh, and coincidentally, your monthly pay is now X amount of dollars lower. This is what people need to understand. If Vince provided insurance for every employee....er, I mean "independent contractor", then the salaries for each worker would drop tremendously due to Vince's added expense. Temps in my company make a lot more hourly than employees. Why? Because employees have insurance covered by the company. With that said, it still is a s***ty move because wrestlers are not independent contractors. This is Vince trying to dodge the system, which he has done successfully for years and years, and will continue to do so from the looks of it. The thing is that if Vince provide access to the company policy that the acknowledged employees (agents, writers, production crew, administration staff) have then this would be a great decision on their part. Forcing the talent to find their own policies mean that A) they don't get the benefit of a negotiated lower group rate that company policies represent and B) they pay for the full amount (which is not discounted in any way like a company policy would be). The WWE could provide company insurance without having to pay for all of the associated expenses. Many companies provide insurance while requiring significant financial responsibility on the part of the employee. What I would love is for this to blow up in Vince's face. He wanted the benefit of insured employees without providing the means for such to many of the employees. By requiring insurance, it might lead to talent signing up with the same agents in order to have their agent negotiate a group policy. This in turn can lead to the group organization of talent that Vince has worked diligently for decades to avoid. Think of it this way: It is actually not unreasonable to expect an independent contractor in any business to be bonded and/or insured. Construction contractors typically have to have such policies of their own. The thing is that these contractors will then charge more money to cover those required expenses while actually having full benefits of being independent contractors. Vince has been trying to have his cake and eat it too. He is wanting the control of employees while only honoring the responsibilities of independent contractors. This is not exactly an indictment of Vince alone as TNA and WCW are/were just as guilty of this (actually, depending on the ethnicity/sex of the talent TNA could be said to be more guilty than Vince). The thing is this requirement is likely to not work the way he was hoping. Employees on development deals, typical diva contracts, and other low paying contracts are going to be hard pressed to afford this and it might play a role in a number of them reassessing their career choices. The only possible plus in this is that it might actually require WWE to allow those lower card talents who will be hard pressed to afford this requirement of theirs to be treated as true independent contractors. What I mean is that these talents would actually be able to accept outside bookings. This would be a boon for indie feds as they could book active WWE talents and would allow these talents to gain experience outside of the the purview of the WWE system (something that some talents like Punk, Bryan, etc benefited greatly from). It might even lead to the WWE raising the pay of these individuals in order to entice them to not accept outside bookings, making it possible for them to afford all of their expenses.
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Post by Red Impact on May 19, 2011 8:07:05 GMT -5
This is what people need to understand. If Vince provided insurance for every employee....er, I mean "independent contractor", then the salaries for each worker would drop tremendously due to Vince's added expense. Temps in my company make a lot more hourly than employees. Why? Because employees have insurance covered by the company. With that said, it still is a s***ty move because wrestlers are not independent contractors. This is Vince trying to dodge the system, which he has done successfully for years and years, and will continue to do so from the looks of it. The thing is that if Vince provide access to the company policy that the acknowledged employees (agents, writers, production crew, administration staff) have then this would be a great decision on their part. Forcing the talent to find their own policies mean that A) they don't get the benefit of a negotiated lower group rate that company policies represent and B) they pay for the full amount (which is not discounted in any way like a company policy would be). The WWE could provide company insurance without having to pay for all of the associated expenses. Many companies provide insurance while requiring significant financial responsibility on the part of the employee. Thing is, if they put them on the company policy, it has the potential of screwing up the premiums for the entire company. 50 or so employees being added to the 580 or so employees they have now might not seem like a big deal, but they're all very-high risk employees. I'm not an actuary or anything and can't crunch any numbers, but you'd think it'd have a potentially profound impact on everyone's rates, and if that is the case it'd suck for everyone on that plan. And on the subject of independent contractors, I know we all think it's an open and shut case, but I have to think there's more to it than any of us know. The IRS isn't exactly lenient when it comes to tax fraud, and surely the WWE has been audited before (at the very least, when they went public the first time). Further, they're actually not the only company that has such requirements of their independent contractors. There are trucking companies that are even stricter than the WWE in how their drivers are treated, and they're classified as independent contractors. So either the IRS is really dropping the ball on multiple companies, or there's more to this law than any of us read on the internet.
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Post by Perpetual Nirvana on May 19, 2011 8:22:28 GMT -5
I'm pretty amazed at the number of people who hate wrestlers posting in this thread. Huh?
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Dr. T is an alien
Patti Mayonnaise
Knows when to hold them, knows when to fold them
I've been found out!
Posts: 31,375
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on May 19, 2011 8:30:27 GMT -5
The thing is that if Vince provide access to the company policy that the acknowledged employees (agents, writers, production crew, administration staff) have then this would be a great decision on their part. Forcing the talent to find their own policies mean that A) they don't get the benefit of a negotiated lower group rate that company policies represent and B) they pay for the full amount (which is not discounted in any way like a company policy would be). The WWE could provide company insurance without having to pay for all of the associated expenses. Many companies provide insurance while requiring significant financial responsibility on the part of the employee. Thing is, if they put them on the company policy, it has the potential of screwing up the premiums for the entire company. 50 or so employees being added to the 580 or so employees they have now might not seem like a big deal, but they're all very-high risk employees. I'm not an actuary or anything and can't crunch any numbers, but you'd think it'd have a potentially profound impact on everyone's rates, and if that is the case it'd suck for everyone on that plan. And on the subject of independent contractors, I know we all think it's an open and shut case, but I have to think there's more to it than any of us know. The IRS isn't exactly lenient when it comes to tax fraud, and surely the WWE has been audited before (at the very least, when they went public the first time). Further, they're actually not the only company that has such requirements of their independent contractors. There are trucking companies that are even stricter than the WWE in how their drivers are treated, and they're classified as independent contractors. So either the IRS is really dropping the ball on multiple companies, or there's more to this law than any of us read on the internet. You make an excellent point, but I think you miss my point as well. I was saying that this is not a big deal if they provided a group policy for them to buy into. Yes, it would likely have an effect on the overall company policy if they used the same policy, but that does not have to be the case. Let me give you an example. My wife works for the local school corporation as a health aide. This corporation has at least three separate insurance group policies. The administration staff takes care of themselves with a very good group policy. The teachers' union takes care of their clients by having negotiated for the corporation to provide them with a very good group policy as well. The support staff, of which my wife is a member, does not get the same support. Their group policy actually sucks in a big way. I am currently uninsured because adding me or my kids to her policy would literally eat up her entire salary. She would, in essence, only be working to provide insurance for the two of us. This sucks, but it illustrates my point. The WWE could maintain their current group policy for their acknowledged employees and a separate group policy for their "independent contractors" that does not affect their other policy. As far as comparing the WWE to shipping companies, shipping companies have to actively compete with each other for truckers' services. No shipping company has the same degree of control of their industry that WWE has. WWE is damn near a monopoly.
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