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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2011 10:46:37 GMT -5
Such an outdated concept. I've you've ever stubbed a toe or accidentally kicked a chair, yeah it'll hurt for maybe a few seconds, but after a moment you'll end up feeling normal. Case in point, Davey kicks the ring post, sells the leg for a few minutes, but eventually gets the feeling back. when you twist your knee you can limp for days Also, it wasn't just that he kicked the ringpost, Eddie was putting him in Achilles Locks and Ankle Locks left and right for a while.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Jul 3, 2011 10:58:02 GMT -5
I don't hate either of the Wolves (Though I will admit that I do not think Edwards was ready to be a World Champ), but I was not blown away by the match Davey and Eddie had. In fact, I got bored real quick. The whole selling thing wasn't the issue though for me, nor was all the big moves (which can get annoying). I just didn't have much interest in the match, and neither guy swayed me.
Now I've had matches in the past that I really didn't want to see win me over (Cena vs Umaga, Taker/Trips from WM, hell I was entertained by Miz/King) and on the Indy scene I've been drawn into main events involving Adam Cole against AR Fox and Jimmy Olsen vs Vin Gerrard.
I don't know no matter who the champ is, I've really become sour with ROH when it comes to their World Champ. I'm pretty sure it's because they waited too long to put the title on Tyler Black, and with this match I think it was fairly obvious Davey was winning the belt.
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Post by ricardob on Jul 3, 2011 11:45:02 GMT -5
When I was about 5 years old, I fell down the stairs. It wasn't until a few hours later that I started to feel extreme discomfort. My mom took me to the hospital, where we were told that I had broken my collar bone. I didn't feel it at first because my body went into shock. Much the same reason that mma fighters and boxers can continue to fight even though they sometimes break their orbital bones. You just don't feel it. Or, maybe those fighters and myself just didn't sell real life injuries enough!
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Post by kingoftheindies on Jul 3, 2011 12:07:07 GMT -5
When I was about 5 years old, I fell down the stairs. It wasn't until a few hours later that I started to feel extreme discomfort. My mom took me to the hospital, where we were told that I had broken my collar bone. I didn't feel it at first because my body went into shock. Much the same reason that mma fighters and boxers can continue to fight even though they sometimes break their orbital bones. You just don't feel it. Or, maybe those fighters and myself just didn't sell real life injuries enough! see the only time that selling really gets me in a match is in instances like the Cena/Miz I quit match. Miz and Riley destroy Cena with a variety of weapons for damn near 20 minutes and he doesn't quit. He whips Miz with a belt like 5 times and locks on the STF and Miz quits right away. Stuff like that gets to me. If people don't sell during a match, I can chalk it up to adrenaline. I dislocated my shoulder during a soccer game in High School. It was sore during the game, but not terrible. Once the adrenaline died down I was in a lot of pain
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mrjl
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Post by mrjl on Jul 3, 2011 13:40:25 GMT -5
When I was about 5 years old, I fell down the stairs. It wasn't until a few hours later that I started to feel extreme discomfort. My mom took me to the hospital, where we were told that I had broken my collar bone. I didn't feel it at first because my body went into shock. Much the same reason that mma fighters and boxers can continue to fight even though they sometimes break their orbital bones. You just don't feel it. Or, maybe those fighters and myself just didn't sell real life injuries enough! see the only time that selling really gets me in a match is in instances like the Cena/Miz I quit match. Miz and Riley destroy Cena with a variety of weapons for damn near 20 minutes and he doesn't quit. He whips Miz with a belt like 5 times and locks on the STF and Miz quits right away. Stuff like that gets to me. If people don't sell during a match, I can chalk it up to adrenaline. I dislocated my shoulder during a soccer game in High School. It was sore during the game, but not terrible. Once the adrenaline died down I was in a lot of pain that says more about Cena and Miz's personalities than any thing else.
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Post by Kangaroo_Punch on Jul 3, 2011 15:32:37 GMT -5
I'm just as displeased with the finishes of the last two Cena PPV matches, but one could justify it by saying he is the Superman character. I happened to not mind how Trips and Taker sold at WM, because they are 40+ years old and don't wrestle full time. I never saw it as overselling, because there were a few times when I saw it live that I thought they may be seriously hurt.
The "adrenaline" argument is kind of cheap, I think. Wrestlers have to make it look real, and since the beginning of the business, it's been a rule to react accordingly and immediately. To say that Richards didn't sell the leg because he was on an adrenaline rush is a cop-out. Are we as an audience expected to imagine that they're really sore a few hours later, and are sprinting around on injured ankles because it doesn't register? Yikes.
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Post by Jingus on Jul 3, 2011 15:51:40 GMT -5
When I was about 5 years old, I fell down the stairs. It wasn't until a few hours later that I started to feel extreme discomfort. My mom took me to the hospital, where we were told that I had broken my collar bone. I didn't feel it at first because my body went into shock. Much the same reason that mma fighters and boxers can continue to fight even though they sometimes break their orbital bones. You just don't feel it. Or, maybe those fighters and myself just didn't sell real life injuries enough! That happens sometimes, sure. But not all the time, nor most of the time, and probably not even close to half the time. Going into shock so overwhelmingly that you don't feel the pain is actually an uncommon thing. Most of the time, you feel the pain right away. It's always been such with me; like once, through sheer clumsiness, I banged my foot into a doorframe and broke and dislocated my pinky toe. You better believe I immediately felt that pain and basically collapsed into a screaming puddle. And besides, this isn't reality we're talking about anyway. It's acting. And what's the point of acting like you're in a fight if you're not gonna act like fighting hurts? Even some of the best make that mistake, and it always frustrates me. Not wrestlers, mind you, I mean actors and stunt men. I've seen too many Jackie Chan scenes where he and his opponents are running around for a long fight scene, knocking each other down over and over again, but rarely bothering to act like they're hurt for longer than it takes to register the hit. It bugs me when it happens there, and it bugs me when it happens in the ring.
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Dave the Dave
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Post by Dave the Dave on Jul 3, 2011 15:52:53 GMT -5
I've become more of a WWE guy again too. I don't know why. I just don't have the energy to keep up with ROH, Chikara, PWG, and all the other new stuff. I got some ROH shows from the beginning of 2010 last winter, and it was terrible. Just felt lame. If it's better now, I can give it a shot again.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2011 16:02:55 GMT -5
For anyone that would like to see a crash course in selling I recommend going to youtube and searching for: May 9, 2005 - Heat - Val Venis vs CM Punk
This is Punk's tryout match, and there is more storytelling, psychology, and selling in 5 minutes than I saw in 35 minutes of Davey/Eddie.
I'm not trying to knock the guys, and if you enjoyed it that's all that really matters.
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Post by machomuta on Jul 3, 2011 17:20:34 GMT -5
This is Punk's tryout match, and there is more storytelling, psychology, and selling in 5 minutes than I saw in 35 minutes of Davey/Eddie. s. Agreed. That match was awesome considering the match didnt even last 10 minutes.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
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Post by mrjl on Jul 3, 2011 17:34:07 GMT -5
When I was about 5 years old, I fell down the stairs. It wasn't until a few hours later that I started to feel extreme discomfort. My mom took me to the hospital, where we were told that I had broken my collar bone. I didn't feel it at first because my body went into shock. Much the same reason that mma fighters and boxers can continue to fight even though they sometimes break their orbital bones. You just don't feel it. Or, maybe those fighters and myself just didn't sell real life injuries enough! That happens sometimes, sure. But not all the time, nor most of the time, and probably not even close to half the time. Going into shock so overwhelmingly that you don't feel the pain is actually an uncommon thing. Most of the time, you feel the pain right away. It's always been such with me; like once, through sheer clumsiness, I banged my foot into a doorframe and broke and dislocated my pinky toe. You better believe I immediately felt that pain and basically collapsed into a screaming puddle. And besides, this isn't reality we're talking about anyway. It's acting. And what's the point of acting like you're in a fight if you're not gonna act like fighting hurts? Even some of the best make that mistake, and it always frustrates me. Not wrestlers, mind you, I mean actors and stunt men. I've seen too many Jackie Chan scenes where he and his opponents are running around for a long fight scene, knocking each other down over and over again, but rarely bothering to act like they're hurt for longer than it takes to register the hit. It bugs me when it happens there, and it bugs me when it happens in the ring. if you're in a fight and not hurt then you're tough.
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Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby
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Post by Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby on Jul 3, 2011 17:45:16 GMT -5
Selling injuries "correctly" by old-school psychology standards isn't realistic - but it's good storytelling.
The best leg sell I saw recently is a good example. Madison Eagles vs. Jessie McKay, Shimmer 35. Jessie's leg selling added a lot to the match - the fact that she could barely stand made every offensive move a triumph for her, and the crowd reacted as such. Furthermore, Jessie's near-helplessness added suspense - especially since she timed her comebacks perfectly (I didn't keep count, but she may have been following the Steamboat Rule - the face should have at least a hint of a comeback for every three moves by the heel).
Or there's my favorite match of all time - Kobashi & Misawa vs. Kawada & Taue, mid-1995 tag championship match. Kobashi and Misawa sold their injuries (leg and face, respectively) really well - and it helped them to tell a story. Any time Kawada and Taue targeted those injuries - instant heat. Kawada looked absolutely evil any time he hit Misawa in the face. Toward the end of the match, Kobashi started sacrificing himself recklessly in the hope of giving Misawa an opening - which wouldn't have meant much if he weren't selling the leg as if it had a bullet wound in it. The injury selling in the match made Kawada & Taue better heels, and Kobashi a better face.
This kind of selling, realistic or not, adds to matches in an important way.
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biafra
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Post by biafra on Jul 3, 2011 17:48:15 GMT -5
You have to suspend SOME belief. If you didn't every match would be a worked MMA fight. But psychology is a huge deal for me. I can't judge this match because I have not seen it yet..but an example of great psychology is Chris Sabin Vrs Chris Hero at PWG 1st All Star Weekend. One guy worked one body part, one worked another, and the ending was determined by who did the better job wearing the other guy down. Perfect, and yeah, it is rare.
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Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby
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Post by Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby on Jul 3, 2011 17:49:04 GMT -5
if you're in a fight and not hurt then you're tough. Raven had the perfect answer for this one - who looks like more of a badass, the guy who can't be injured at all, or the guy who's still fighting even though he's been torn to pieces? There's a reason Superman's popularity has waned in comparison to Batman and Spider-man - the latter two go through hell frequently and face great adversity, while Superman often shrugs off big damage. Batman getting up from a stab wound means a lot more than a bullet wound bouncing off Superman's chest - but that stab wound is meaningless unless it's clear that Batman is actually in danger.
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mrjl
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Post by mrjl on Jul 3, 2011 18:09:34 GMT -5
if you're in a fight and not hurt then you're tough. Raven had the perfect answer for this one - who looks like more of a badass, the guy who can't be injured at all, or the guy who's still fighting even though he's been torn to pieces? There's a reason Superman's popularity has waned in comparison to Batman and Spider-man - the latter two go through hell frequently and face great adversity, while Superman often shrugs off big damage. Batman getting up from a stab wound means a lot more than a bullet wound bouncing off Superman's chest - but that stab wound is meaningless unless it's clear that Batman is actually in danger. I like the guy who looks like he's been brutalized but doesn't act like it, you know the sort who spits out a tooth then goes about his business, but it's hard for wrestling to do the kind of makeup needed for that.
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Post by "Nature Boy" Ric Moranis on Jul 4, 2011 4:13:03 GMT -5
Every play in the NFL, somebody on one side of the team gets hit harder than anybody in a pro wrestling match. More times than not, do you see them "selling" the next play, unless they're injured?
Anybody that plays (or has played) contact sports at any level knows about adrenaline and what it does to the human body to neutralize pain. Only old-school wrestling psychology has taught us about "selling" in wrestling matches.
But if Davey Richards/Eddie Edwards were having a real "fight" like that and no bones were broken, then it's completely plausible for them to "no-sell" if they're trying to "win" a "fight" for a "championship".
In a contact sport, if the injury isn't serious, it goes away almost immediately and you don't feel it for a couple hours, or until the next day.
Kind of like a minor car wreck...where you don't think you're hurt, then wake up the next day with a giant bruise on your knee, or you're sore.
So they aren't wrong. It's just not what we're used to, or what we like about great wrestling matches.
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Post by The Ichi on Jul 4, 2011 5:32:34 GMT -5
It's a Wrestlecrap FAN tradition. It strikes me as humorous. Like "Where were you five minutes ago?" I don't get it. Are you saying that because some people didn't make the thread before the OP, they don't actually share the OP's opinions? That's a weird argument to me.
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Post by Jingus on Jul 4, 2011 7:30:39 GMT -5
Every play in the NFL, somebody on one side of the team gets hit harder than anybody in a pro wrestling match. More times than not, do you see them "selling" the next play, unless they're injured? BECAUSE THE NFL ISN'T FAKE. This is wrestling we're talking about. A fictional exhibition of narrative storytelling. In real sports, you need to hide your pain, so that your enemy won't see it and get cocky and steamroll over you. In fake entertainment, you need to display your pain, so that the audience has an emotional investment in the tale that you're telling. What the f*** is the point if a wrestler is like Steven Seagal, blasting through all his opponents in an overwhelming fashion while showing zero vulnerability? "Wrestlers shouldn't sell because ________ don't sell pain in real life" is a goddamn horrible excuse which ignores the fundamental nature of wrestling as being a theatrical performance. Stop using it.
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AdamAFL was sooooo wrong
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Post by AdamAFL was sooooo wrong on Jul 4, 2011 7:39:00 GMT -5
Every play in the NFL, somebody on one side of the team gets hit harder than anybody in a pro wrestling match. More times than not, do you see them "selling" the next play, unless they're injured? BECAUSE THE NFL ISN'T FAKE. This is wrestling we're talking about. A fictional exhibition of narrative storytelling. In real sports, you need to hide your pain, so that your enemy won't see it and get cocky and steamroll over you. In fake entertainment, you need to display your pain, so that the audience has an emotional investment in the tale that you're telling. What the f*** is the point if a wrestler is like Steven Seagal, blasting through all his opponents in an overwhelming fashion while showing zero vulnerability? "Wrestlers shouldn't sell because ________ don't sell pain in real life" is a goddamn horrible excuse which ignores the fundamental nature of wrestling as being a theatrical performance. Stop using it. Couldn't disagree more. One thing that constantly bugs me about wrestling is the ridiculous overselling. I like it being more realistic like Eddie v Davey.
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Post by Chuckie Finster on Jul 4, 2011 7:39:09 GMT -5
Every play in the NFL, somebody on one side of the team gets hit harder than anybody in a pro wrestling match. More times than not, do you see them "selling" the next play, unless they're injured? Anybody that plays (or has played) contact sports at any level knows about adrenaline and what it does to the human body to neutralize pain. Only old-school wrestling psychology has taught us about "selling" in wrestling matches. But if Davey Richards/Eddie Edwards were having a real "fight" like that and no bones were broken, then it's completely plausible for them to "no-sell" if they're trying to "win" a "fight" for a "championship". In a contact sport, if the injury isn't serious, it goes away almost immediately and you don't feel it for a couple hours, or until the next day. Kind of like a minor car wreck...where you don't think you're hurt, then wake up the next day with a giant bruise on your knee, or you're sore. So they aren't wrong. It's just not what we're used to, or what we like about great wrestling matches. Comparing a football player no-selling versus a pro wrestling no-selling in apples and oranges. The football players no-sells to avoid being taken out of the game and so the other team doesn't know it and targets that area. Also, hurting the opposition isn't the purpose of the contest like it is in wrestling If a non-serious injury is suppose to go away immediately, then in the Richards/Edwards match, the match should have gone on for hours as we saw afterward they weren't seriously injured or selling injury, just fatigue. There's selling in pro wrestling for a reason. It gives the fans an idea of the natural progression of a match and builds them to a finish. In the match, Richards wins after kicking Eddie several times in a row and no one in the crowd thought that was the finish because they didn't do a good enough job conveying to the crowd that they were hurt to the point that it could be a finish.
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