mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Jul 4, 2011 7:42:41 GMT -5
the nfl also has pads and is mostly played on grass. Also most blows are directed towards the torso. When there's a significant impact on the leg or arm you often see the player leave the game unable to use the limb, and sometimes out for a long time.
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Post by FUNK_US/BRODUS on Jul 4, 2011 9:50:08 GMT -5
There is no problem if you don't like Strong style matches. Puroresu and MMA highly influenced the current batch of indy wrestlers therefore you will see it in their ring work. What is called no selling to some is called to others as showing samurai spirit. My biggest pet peeve is that moves that should be finishers are used as transition moves. But you can't paint every indy wrestler as a no selling spot monkey. That's not fair. And some of the best sellers back in the day weren't the top stars, they were the jobbers. Fro every Ricky Morton or Jerry Lawler you had a Rocky King or Barry Horowitz. The art of selling and ring psychology is something only a few wrestlers really mastered. I have to agree here. I watched Randy Couture fight with a broken arm against Gabriel Gonzaga and he still won the fight. Not to mention I had no idea at the time he broke his arm. The new generation of indy wrestlers just dont use the old-timey "sell a body part" routine anymore.
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Post by FUNK_US/BRODUS on Jul 4, 2011 9:52:06 GMT -5
I can't really stand Richards at all, and so when I heard the details of this match, with the no-selling & de-valuing of finishers, as the worst offenders, I wish to thank Kangaroo, as I know to avoid it, and not to buy in on the hype others say of it. Same here. I take what Rock said regarding going from Austin and Rock to Cena and apply it to going from Samoa Joe and Punk to Richards. I know when I hear "OMG RICHARDS HAD A FIVE-STAR MATCH" to avoid it.' One thing in particular I dislike is wrestlers who use MMA submissions and don't understand how to use them. To me, a guy being in a cross arm breaker for a minute and reaching the ropes is completely unbelievable as in real life, you'd be tapping out in 5 seconds. Remember when Danielson made Strong tap out to an Omoplata in an instant? That was believable and awesome and didn't hurt Strong at all and made the rematch more interesting. That applies to submissions all through pro wrestling. If Del Rio properly applied an armbar (And its an armbar, I dont know why we have this stupid "cross armbreaker" name for it) then guys would be tapping out straight away.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Jul 4, 2011 10:58:38 GMT -5
I feel part of the problem is that a lot of indy wrestlers (and I notice this more in ROH than most places) want their match to be an epic. Which is the right attitude but their idea of an epic is a lot of false finishes and big moves. In wrestling, a lot of times, less is more. I love HBK vs Triple H from Summerslam 2002 and there were big moves, but it wasn't constantly hitting move big move after big move.
To me it's kind of like watching a Michael Bay movie. The explosions and special effects look awesome, but after awhile you need a little more substance
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Post by "Nature Boy" Ric Moranis on Jul 4, 2011 16:10:01 GMT -5
Every play in the NFL, somebody on one side of the team gets hit harder than anybody in a pro wrestling match. More times than not, do you see them "selling" the next play, unless they're injured? BECAUSE THE NFL ISN'T FAKE. This is wrestling we're talking about. A fictional exhibition of narrative storytelling. In real sports, you need to hide your pain, so that your enemy won't see it and get cocky and steamroll over you. In fake entertainment, you need to display your pain, so that the audience has an emotional investment in the tale that you're telling. What the f*** is the point if a wrestler is like Steven Seagal, blasting through all his opponents in an overwhelming fashion while showing zero vulnerability? "Wrestlers shouldn't sell because ________ don't sell pain in real life" is a goddamn horrible excuse which ignores the fundamental nature of wrestling as being a theatrical performance. Stop using it. In trying to present wrestling as a sport such as an "important" fake wrestling "title match" like Edwards vs. Richards, you just gave yourself the very reason WHY they wouldn't sell. And you took my NFL quote out of context, because having played contact sports...contact can stun you or knock you down, but a lot of time doesn't "hurt" therefore you don't have to "sell". More times than not you "feel" that pain hours later or the next day. Look. I was blown away by the HHH vs. Undertaker WM match where they were laying around for five minutes in between big moves. But those "characters" are portrayed as 40+ year old men...and in Undertaker's case at Death's door. As fake wrestlers, Richards and Edwards are portrayed as young, proud, hungry athletes. That's apples and oranges too. As apples and oranges as comparing fake wrestling pain to the NFL.
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Post by CMPunkyBrewster on Jul 4, 2011 19:36:20 GMT -5
Comparing a football player no-selling versus a pro wrestling no-selling in apples and oranges. The football players no-sells to avoid being taken out of the game and so the other team doesn't know it and targets that area. Also, hurting the opposition isn't the purpose of the contest like it is in wrestling So wait.......NFL players don't show that they're hurt to avoid the other team taking advantage of their weakness, right? Why wouldn't wrestlers do the same thing? Showing a weakness means the other wrestler has an area to target that he knows is already weak. Especially in light of your argument regarding football as "hurting the opposition isn't the purpose of the contest like it is in wrestling" (which actually works against the idea of football players not showing pain to avoid being taken advantage of), then it actually makes EVEN MORE sense that wrestlers would try to avoid showing pain, since the point is exclusively to hurt your opponent so they can't continue. I'm sorry, but your argument makes no sense whatsoever. PS. As a man who has played both football and been a pro wrestler, I can definitely tell you that not only does the man lined up across from you on the football field DEFINITELY want to hurt you because you are in his way, but selling is also one of the most delicate balances you have to walk in the ring.
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Post by Jingus on Jul 4, 2011 20:57:55 GMT -5
The new generation of indy wrestlers just dont use the old-timey "sell a body part" routine anymore. And the new generation of indy wrestlers don't draw anywhere near what the old-timey territorial rasslers did. Coincidence? Not that a lack of selling is purely the cause of modern wrestling's downfall, of course not, but it clearly isn't helping. Why wouldn't wrestlers do the same thing? Showing a weakness means the other wrestler has an area to target that he knows is already weak. Especially in light of your argument regarding football as "hurting the opposition isn't the purpose of the contest like it is in wrestling"; (which actually works against the idea of football players not showing pain to avoid being taken advantage of), then it actually makes EVEN MORE sense that wrestlers would try to avoid showing pain, since the point is exclusively to hurt your opponent so they can't continue. Because it's not real. A fake fight has things occur in a way which rarely or never happens in a real fight. That's just how fiction works. Storytelling doesn't work by the same rules as reality. For wrestling, you have to make the audience believe that this shit really hurts. You can do this one of two ways: 1.do things which obviously do really hurt, like kicking a guy full-force right in the face with such impact that the crowd gasps; or, work-punching a guy and have him clutch his face and yell "ow!". The second is infinitely more sensible than the first.
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Post by CMPunkyBrewster on Jul 4, 2011 21:44:32 GMT -5
I just think these poor guys are damned if they do, damned if they don't a lot of times. If they make as realistic as possible, then they don't sell enough. If they do all the stuff where they fly through the air and bounce around, they get accused of over-selling. There is definitely a line to walk here, but it's so thin that basically no one can walk it. I'll take Edwards/Richards style of realism any day over the cartoony Shawn Michaels stuff.
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Post by Starshine on Jul 4, 2011 22:06:58 GMT -5
Funny thing is when ROH did tone down their style into a more selling oriented one in 2009, it was labelled their worst year by many fans.
Coincidence maybe? Perhaps. But when they started changing back the opinions sermed to to as well.
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Post by CuJ0 Will Keep Dancing on Jul 4, 2011 22:14:05 GMT -5
Watch Urijah Faber vs Jose Aldo if you want to see "selling" in a real fight.
Aldo puts a leg kick clinic on Faber, and even though Faber had a ton of heart you could tell those leg kicks took the fight out of him. Near the end he couldn't even put any weight on his leg, you could tell he was in pain and even gracing shots to the leg inflicted damage.
Yes, wrestling is fake and requires a certain degree of fictional circumstances to it but selling isn't a dead, it's just a tough aspect to master.
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Post by Kangaroo_Punch on Jul 5, 2011 0:31:21 GMT -5
Watch Urijah Faber vs Jose Aldo if you want to see "selling" in a real fight. Aldo puts a leg kick clinic on Faber, and even though Faber had a ton of heart you could tell those leg kicks took the fight out of him. Near the end he couldn't even put any weight on his leg, you could tell he was in pain and even gracing shots to the leg inflicted damage. Yes, wrestling is fake and requires a certain degree of fictional circumstances to it but selling isn't a dead, it's just a tough aspect to master. I was going to say something about this post, but I got distracted by your avatar on the left, and I forgot.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Jul 5, 2011 0:34:01 GMT -5
Funny thing is when ROH did tone down their style into a more selling oriented one in 2009, it was labelled their worst year by many fans. Coincidence maybe? Perhaps. But when they started changing back the opinions sermed to to as well. I think it was more poor booking than anything back then.
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Post by Larryhausen on Jul 5, 2011 1:41:54 GMT -5
I'm going to weigh in here with my, extremely limited experience in a ring, and also not having seen the match yet.
My second week of training, I twisted my ankle doing a basic roll. Then later on in class I did something, I can't remember what, that I'm pretty sure gave me a groin pull(the likes of which you have never seen).
It didn't bother me at all until I woke up the next day, and, judging by what ROH said about both guys the day after, I can completely understand the story they were telling.
I think both types of stories have their place in modern day pro wrestling: the classic "sell the injury, get sympathy" story, and the Strong Style "I will ignore everything you do to me so long as I hurt you more" style match.
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Post by FUNK_US/BRODUS on Jul 5, 2011 5:44:54 GMT -5
The new generation of indy wrestlers just dont use the old-timey "sell a body part" routine anymore. And the new generation of indy wrestlers don't draw anywhere near what the old-timey territorial rasslers did. Coincidence? Not that a lack of selling is purely the cause of modern wrestling's downfall, of course not, but it clearly isn't helping. Im really sick of this "they dont draw anything" argument. Wrestling isnt as culturally accepted anymore. With the exposure of kayfabe, the 90s steroid scandal, Eddie Guerreros death, the entire Chris Benoit fiasco and the way news reports on pro wrestling (If anything good happens we dont care, if something bad happens, theyre all evil people) its hard to get back to that era.
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Post by Starshine on Jul 5, 2011 6:56:06 GMT -5
Funny thing is when ROH did tone down their style into a more selling oriented one in 2009, it was labelled their worst year by many fans. Coincidence maybe? Perhaps. But when they started changing back the opinions sermed to to as well. I think it was more poor booking than anything back then. I do agree that played a big part of it in the early half of Pearce's run. But at the same time there was quite a bit of grumbling about the in ring quality not matching what Gabe had booked which was very much like what Edwards and Richards did.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Jul 5, 2011 15:32:46 GMT -5
Different psychology does not equal bad psychology.
Like, if Luchadors started having matches like WWE guys, it'd be jarring and not entertaining. You stand around to get jumped on, you roll through things, and nothing hurts very much. It's the style. Indy guys have a style too.
one thing I've noticed is, a lot of people are doing submissions now that are JUST to get the submission. They're not meant to do anything but cause pain right there in that moment; they don't hurt the body part.
I think the real problem is: In indy wrestling, lots of times there's this constant need to top themselves, which leads to over-stiffness and dangerous head drops.
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Post by Kangaroo_Punch on Jul 5, 2011 16:05:23 GMT -5
I think the real problem is: In indy wrestling, lots of times there's this constant need to top themselves, which leads to over-stiffness and dangerous head drops. Not to go off-topic but I have serious concerns about what these guys will be like in fifteen or twenty years. With the poor condition that most former wrestlers are in, I shudder to think how much worse these guys will be now that they're kicking each other nearly full-force and dropping each other on their heads a few times a night. I can only hope that these indy wrestlers can learn from past events and not fall into drugs and alcohol and whatnot.
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Post by Citizen Zero on Jul 5, 2011 17:43:10 GMT -5
I think the real problem is: In indy wrestling, lots of times there's this constant need to top themselves, which leads to over-stiffness and dangerous head drops. Not to go off-topic but I have serious concerns about what these guys will be like in fifteen or twenty years. With the poor condition that most former wrestlers are in, I shudder to think how much worse these guys will be now that they're kicking each other nearly full-force and dropping each other on their heads a few times a night. I can only hope that these indy wrestlers can learn from past events and not fall into drugs and alcohol and whatnot. Pro-wrestling in Japan is super-stiff too, but you don't hear near as much about their wrestlers dying young as you do guys from WWE and WCW. It's not the moves that leave you permanently crippled, addicted to painkillers, and generally screwed up phyically, it's doing them repeatedly with no time to rest due to a brutal travel schedule.
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Post by Jingus on Jul 5, 2011 19:23:40 GMT -5
Pro-wrestling in Japan is super-stiff too, but you don't hear near as much about their wrestlers dying young as you do guys from WWE and WCW. The Americans who die young are generally from drug-related causes. Japan's laws and cultural views on drugs are much more strict than in America, so they've got much less of a problem in that regard. But still, all you gotta say is one word: Misawa. That's the saddest proof possible that the stiff-hitting head-dropping style can easily kill you at a moment's notice.
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