Richards vs. Edwards: Best/Worst of ROH

[Kangaroo_Punch]

I started watching ROH in 2006, and it alone got me back into wrestling again. It opened my eyes to other indie promotions like Chikara, PWG, etc., and I have always been impressed with the effort these guys put into their craft.

I've fallen off the Indy bandwagon pretty hard. I watch only a handful of indy matches a year, and I became a WWE guy again for a few reasons. I've seen a decent amount of Richards and only two Edwards matches before I sat down to watch their match from the recent pay-per-view. I really like both guys, and the match had a ton of awesome stuff in it. Lots of fun.

However, despite the craziness of the match, I couldn't help but think that these two guys were also perpetuating the stereotype of the indy wrestler. I don't normally like to nitpick, but it does bother me when injuries are ignored. These two guys would work on a body part for a few minutes, a spot would happen, and just a few seconds later, everything is fine. It didn't help that the commentators would mention how much damage their legs/arms were taking, and yet they'd be running around at full speed.

I've also noticed a lot of people criticize indy matches for having too many nearfalls. A chorus of nearfalls in wrestling can be a great thing, but it got a little tedious in this one. I feel like the crowd stopped responding after a while, and only bought a few or the attempts in the last few minutes. Specifically, when Edwards did the grapevine ankle lock.

This match is both the epitome of why I started watching the indies and possibly why I stopped. They pulled off moves that simply aren't done in the bigger leagues. You can tell that a lot of the strikes were stiff as hell, and a lot of their transitions were unique and crisp. They should both be proud of what they accomplished. I just think it's strange that these guys can dedicate years upon years to pro wrestling, and not remember to sell a body part for more than a minute.

I'm not trolling, and not looking to start a fight, but these were my thoughts after the match. Excellent as far as offense and bumps, but poor in a lot of the bare basics of this silly pseudo-sport we all love. And that's my rant. Feel free to pick it apart at your leisure.

[Deleted]

I have somewhat similar feelings on the match, in that I'm not a big fan of the puro type spots where they face off and trade strikes, or when one of the guys takes a killer move only to pop back up with a flurry. They had so many big spots that after a while started to wear thin. It seemed to me they were trying for a Misawa/Kobashi type match, but not many people can deliver that type of a match.

I thought a lot of the counters were great, but it wasn't as great a match as it's talked about being IMO. The guys worked hard and gave it their all though.

[Jingus]

You guys aren't alone. Lots of critics accuse Richards and indy wrestlers like him as basically being cosplayers. They're copying the styles and moves and spots from the older wrestlers they marked out for as kids, but don't quite understand how to make it work. Thus you get things like "we're gonna work a body part for five minutes, and then just do a highspot and forget all about selling the injury" as if the match was planned on an Etch-A-Sketch that they periodically stopped to shake furiously.

[Bishblast]

I think when Richards gets his psychology and selling down, he'll be one of the best going. He's already a solid talent, but I do mostly agree with what's being said here.

However, I'd still have it as a MOTYC at this point.

[sweatpants]

Jul 1, 2011 23:31:10 GMT -5 Kangaroo_Punch said:

I just think it's strange that these guys can dedicate years upon years to pro wrestling, and not remember to sell a body part for more than a minute.

Such an outdated concept. I've you've ever stubbed a toe or accidentally kicked a chair, yeah it'll hurt for maybe a few seconds, but after a moment you'll end up feeling normal. Case in point, Davey kicks the ring post, sells the leg for a few minutes, but eventually gets the feeling back.

[Jimmy]

Did you not see the part where they both were exhausted and barely able to stand for several minutes after the match?

[Spankymac is sick of the swiss]

Jul 1, 2011 23:59:50 GMT -5 Jingus said:

You guys aren't alone. Lots of critics accuse Richards and indy wrestlers like him as basically being cosplayers. They're copying the styles and moves and spots from the older wrestlers they marked out for as kids, but don't quite understand how to make it work. Thus you get things like "we're gonna work a body part for five minutes, and then just do a highspot and forget all about selling the injury" as if the match was planned on an Etch-A-Sketch that they periodically stopped to shake furiously.

To wit, Richards is clearly cosplaying as some combo between Dynamite Kid and Chris Benoit. Only without the best part of both, that being that they knew how to sell injuries.

[Kangaroo_Punch]

Jul 2, 2011 0:37:32 GMT -5 sweatpants said:

Jul 1, 2011 23:31:10 GMT -5 Kangaroo_Punch said:

I just think it's strange that these guys can dedicate years upon years to pro wrestling, and not remember to sell a body part for more than a minute.

Such an outdated concept. I've you've ever stubbed a toe or accidentally kicked a chair, yeah it'll hurt for maybe a few seconds, but after a moment you'll end up feeling normal. Case in point, Davey kicks the ring post, sells the leg for a few minutes, but eventually gets the feeling back.

Fair enough, but my response is that stubbing your foot is in no way like being caught in a cross armbar for a minute.

Jul 2, 2011 0:59:57 GMT -5 Jimmy said:

Did you not see the part where they both were exhausted and barely able to stand for several minutes after the match?

I did notice that, but I felt like they just remembered once the bell rang that they should be selling those injuries. Anyone can sell after a match, because often that's the only thing to focus on. I don't need them hobbling or falling over. I just don't want them to be running the ropes, or doing moves with an arm that's been worked on for a period of time.

[Jingus]

Jul 2, 2011 0:37:32 GMT -5 sweatpants said:

Such an outdated concept.

"Outdated"? Not even remotely. Name me some big-drawing stars in wrestling today who don't sell. (No jokes about John Cena, please.) There aren't any. The old rules still hold. Going back through history, all the biggest stars were guys who sold their butts off when taking a beating. (With the only exceptions being the rare Invincible Monster types like Goldberg or Warrior, but there aren't many of those and their career peaks typically don't last very long.) They did generally Hulk Up towards the end of the match and ignore the damage they'd previously taken in order to deliver the big finish, but that's a completely different thing from the indy no-selling that we're talking about here.

[________ has left the building]

There is no problem if you don't like Strong style matches. Puroresu and MMA highly influenced the current batch of indy wrestlers therefore you will see it in their ring work. What is called no selling to some is called to others as showing samurai spirit. My biggest pet peeve is that moves that should be finishers are used as transition moves. But you can't paint every indy wrestler as a no selling spot monkey. That's not fair.

And some of the best sellers back in the day weren't the top stars, they were the jobbers. Fro every Ricky Morton or Jerry Lawler you had a Rocky King or Barry Horowitz. The art of selling and ring psychology is something only a few wrestlers really mastered.

[Jingus]

Jul 2, 2011 8:03:16 GMT -5 ________ has left the building said:

There is no problem if you don't like Strong style matches. Puroresu and MMA highly influenced the current batch of indy wrestlers therefore you will see it in their ring work. What is called no selling to some is called to others as showing samurai spirit.

This ain't my first rodeo when it comes to "strong style". Kenta Kobashi is possibly my very favorite wrestler of all time. But there's a big difference between the stuff he and his contemporaries did when it was new and fresh, and the legion of American indy guys in the next generation who have taken to copying it.

I still remember my first reaction to watching Low-Ki vs Danielson at the ECWA 2000 Super-Eight tournament finals. I tilted my head to the side, and muttered "...why the hell are these two guys copying an old Misawa vs Kawada spot, and not doing it nearly as well as those guys did it?" Fortunately they both got much better (well, at least Danielson did) but I've seen that kind of cosplaying behavior too many times to count.

It's not just that style either, there's plenty of other stuff. The guys who were inspired by FMW and do the deathmatch garbage, and inevitably set up a bunch of stupidly contrived and dangerous spots, and usually botch half of them. The guys who do move-counter-move-counter-DOUBLE POSE~! spots, because they thought it was so f***ing cool when they saw RVD and Lynn do it.
The guys who wear jean shorts and use a Stunner as their finisher. Being influenced by your old heroes is fine, but don't ever cross the line into just plagiarizing their work.

My biggest pet peeve is that moves that should be finishers are used as transition moves.

Which is a huge problem for me in many indy matches, and even in lots of Japanese stuff over the past decade. Guys are busting out hyper-mega-ultimate-death-finishers right in the middle of the match, and then selling it like it was nothing more than a body slam. That's a stupid way to wrestle, plain and simple, it devalues the moves' credibility and is more likely to cause injury to the performers.

But you can't paint every indy wrestler as a no selling spot monkey. That's not fair.

Claiming I said that is unfair, because I never did. Of course they're not. But many of them are. I spent five years working various non-wrestling jobs on the indy scene, so I've got plenty of first-hand experience in seeing losers and ripoff artists who did every one of the mistakes I talked about, plus many many more. Most of those guys make Davey Richards look like Dynamite Kid in comparison, it's true, but even with the top indy guys there's all too often a feeling of "I know exactly where they're stealing this from, and the originators did it better".

["Playboy" Don Douglas]

I haven't watched as many of the indies or strong style as a lot of people here. I knew Richards completely by reputation when I saw him wrestle for the first time, live at the Fanfest last year.

He had 2 matches as part of a tournament, I believe against Caprice Coleman and Phil Shatter (Gunner). There was certainly a lot of action in both and I can't say I wasn't entertained. But for me personally, something seemed to be missing. I heard others raving about the matches, but I couldn't go that far with it.

Of course, I'm an old school kind of fan. I'm sure that has something to do with it.

[generationxero]

Jul 2, 2011 2:36:58 GMT -5 @lightningfalconry said:

Are people really calling some of the best current pro-wrestlers in the world 'cosplayers'? I hate you, a lot, sorry.

This.

[woodface]

Jul 2, 2011 1:03:17 GMT -5 Spankymac is sick of the swiss said:

Jul 1, 2011 23:59:50 GMT -5 Jingus said:

You guys aren't alone. Lots of critics accuse Richards and indy wrestlers like him as basically being cosplayers. They're copying the styles and moves and spots from the older wrestlers they marked out for as kids, but don't quite understand how to make it work. Thus you get things like "we're gonna work a body part for five minutes, and then just do a highspot and forget all about selling the injury" as if the match was planned on an Etch-A-Sketch that they periodically stopped to shake furiously.

To wit, Richards is clearly cosplaying as some combo between Dynamite Kid and Chris Benoit. Only without the best part of both, that being that they knew how to sell injuries.

And he's obnoxious with his attempts at showing outward personality.

[Johnny B. Decent]

I can't really stand Richards at all, and so when I heard the details of this match, with the no-selling & de-valuing of finishers, as the worst offenders, I wish to thank Kangaroo, as I know to avoid it, and not to buy in on the hype others say of it.

[Chuckie Finster]

Jul 2, 2011 11:45:59 GMT -5 Johnny B. Decent said:

I can't really stand Richards at all, and so when I heard the details of this match, with the no-selling & de-valuing of finishers, as the worst offenders, I wish to thank Kangaroo, as I know to avoid it, and not to buy in on the hype others say of it.

Same here. I take what Rock said regarding going from Austin and Rock to Cena and apply it to going from Samoa Joe and Punk to Richards. I know when I hear "OMG RICHARDS HAD A FIVE-STAR MATCH" to avoid it.'

One thing in particular I dislike is wrestlers who use MMA submissions and don't understand how to use them. To me, a guy being in a cross arm breaker for a minute and reaching the ropes is completely unbelievable as in real life, you'd be tapping out in 5 seconds. Remember when Danielson made Strong tap out to an Omoplata in an instant? That was believable and awesome and didn't hurt Strong at all and made the rematch more interesting.

[________ has left the building]

I watched Evolve a couple of times and was not blown away the product. I know they are combining MMA with pro wrestling but I hate the presentation and blase characters.

Since we are airing out indy grievances, I don't like lucha inspired offences. By that I mean the thousand variations of an armdrag and back flips.

[slappy]

It's been the match of the year so far. I've been watching wrestling my whole life and that was one of the finest matches I have ever seen.

[perkleton]

i agree completely, the thing that annoys me most is the massive amount of highspots and nearfalls. there's way too many to the point that it makes the moves meaningless.

same with angle vs hardy that time, where hardy was in the ankle lock for about 6minutes and angle kicked out of something like 2 swantons and one on the floor. really annoying. then you had people saying it was a great match, but it wasnt it just dragged on and made things pointless.

raven said a match is like a pyramid, and you build to the peak.
but these guys go to the peak, ignore everything else then stay at the peak so long it fizzles out.

edit: ive also fallen off the indy/puro waggon mostly because of this being commonplace

[Deleted]

I'll never understand the mountains of praise people heap onto Davey Richards. Never once have I watched a match of his and said "That kid is one of the best." Learning every submission move and strike you can learn doesn't make you the best wrestler in the world. He lacks so much in ring psychology and has virtually no ability to keep me interested in what he's doing.

In short, Davey Richards is overrated and I'm really starting to grow disenchanted with the current crop of indy guys as a whole.