Jericho's Second Book

[laker8kiss]

Just a random observation but I am up to the part where he discusses his 2001 Royal Rumble ladder match with Benoit. He refers to it as the match that "technically never happened." Any other match that involved Benoit is also referred this way. My question is this, is this fair to Jericho? I know we should be grateful that he can even discuss it ib the book because those matches will never end up on DVD.

[derrtaysouth95]

He can discuss it in the book because it's not a WWE issued book. Outside source allows him to do as he pleases. Obviously he knows what might get him in trouble with Vince but I still think he's honest.

I think the better question is, is this fair to Benoit? He had a great wrestling career. I don't think the last 72 hrs of someones life should define everything they have ever done up to that point. Yeah how he went out was wrong....but it doesn't discount what he accomplished in the ring.

From our persepctive as fans all that should matter is the in-ring product. Not the outside happenings. I know our society commands we know everything about everybody who is in the social light which is fine if it must be. It's like OJ Simpson...you don't see clips of his plays on tv because of what he may or may not have done.

[The Summer of Muskrat XVII]

He actually addresses the whole "It never happened" thing at the end of the book, along with the rest of his opinions and feelings about the whole Benoit situation.

[kingkurteous]

I also read the book and thoroughly enjoyed it. (Not quite as much as his 1st). He makes reference to Benoit being erased from WWE history many times actually. His books (along with Bret's) are the best reads in my opinion. Simply because there is no pressure to appease Vince or the WWE powers that be.

On a side note, how awesome is this guy! He seems to truly enjoy life and give his best efforts in whatever endeavor he pursues. I admire and respect the dude

[chazraps]

Sept 20, 2011 8:40:46 GMT -5 @derrtaysouth95 said:

I think the better question is, is this fair to Benoit? He had a great wrestling career. I don't think the last 72 hrs of someones life should define everything they have ever done up to that point. Yeah how he went out was wrong....but it doesn't discount what he accomplished in the ring.

From our persepctive as fans all that should matter is the in-ring product. Not the outside happenings. I know our society commands we know everything about everybody who is in the social light which is fine if it must be. It's like OJ Simpson...you don't see clips of his plays on tv because of what he may or may not have done.

Well, he did murder his wife and son before killing himself over the course of a weekend. At least OJ was found innocent in a court of law.

Plus, if you want to talk "the business," the last 72 hours of Benoit's life had just as much of an impact as the 40 years preceding it, maybe more. It's not like he was a drunk driver who had one instance of poor judgment and wiped out his family. This was something he did over 3 days that's, no matter how you slice it, directly related to the wrestling lifestyle.

It was the biggest, most impacting thing he's ever done. Therefore, there's nothing wrong with him or his legacy being defined by it.

While it's unfortunate we'll never see his matches for quite some time, I can't fault the WWE for omitting him. I'm much more upset over not ponying up for original music royalties.

[chazraps]

Sept 20, 2011 10:13:13 GMT -5 kingkurteous said:

I also read the book and thoroughly enjoyed it. (Not quite as much as his 1st).

Yeah, I think the biggest problem with the second book is that the first one tells an amazing story, whereas the second one reads as just a giant epilogue. It's basically "here's a bunch of stuff I did after that!" Still a fun read, but doesn't capture the magic of 'A Lion's Tale.'

[Nikki Heyman]

Sept 20, 2011 8:40:46 GMT -5 @derrtaysouth95 said:

I think the better question is, is this fair to Benoit? He had a great wrestling career. I don't think the last 72 hrs of someones life should define everything they have ever done up to that point. Yeah how he went out was wrong....but it doesn't discount what he accomplished in the ring.

I've read Jericho's 2nd book and the tone I get from his "never happened" comments (my opinion, mind you) that he's disappointed that Benoit is been made an "unperson" in WWE and no one will be able to see just how good he was in the ring.

Sadly, society as a whole will define Benoit for those last 72 hours.

[donny]

Sept 20, 2011 12:18:40 GMT -5 Nikki Heyman said:

Sept 20, 2011 8:40:46 GMT -5 @derrtaysouth95 said:

I think the better question is, is this fair to Benoit? He had a great wrestling career. I don't think the last 72 hrs of someones life should define everything they have ever done up to that point. Yeah how he went out was wrong....but it doesn't discount what he accomplished in the ring.

I've read Jericho's 2nd book and the tone I get from his "never happened" comments (my opinion, mind you) that he's disappointed that Benoit is been made an "unperson" in WWE and no one will be able to see just how good he was in the ring.

Sadly, society as a whole will define Benoit for those last 72 hours.

While we're at it, why don't we celebrate all the positive things that guys like Jefferey Dahmer, Ted Bundy, and Ed Gein did? Why should the bad outweigh the good? Sure there were murders, but there was also plenty of laughter!!!

Bottom line: Screw Chris Benoit. The fact that he could hit a nice german suplex or two does not come close to making him worthy of respect. He killed his own child for crying out loud.

[Kevin Hamilton]

I think the better question is, is this fair to Benoit? He had a great wrestling career.

Yup. Can't blame anyone but him there. He defined/destroyed his legacy; no one else.

I actually thought the 'technically never happened' was a clever acknowledgement of the situation and how things are now.

[Clash, Never a Meter Maid]

Sept 20, 2011 12:18:40 GMT -5 Nikki Heyman said:

Sept 20, 2011 8:40:46 GMT -5 @derrtaysouth95 said:

I think the better question is, is this fair to Benoit? He had a great wrestling career. I don't think the last 72 hrs of someones life should define everything they have ever done up to that point. Yeah how he went out was wrong....but it doesn't discount what he accomplished in the ring.

I've read Jericho's 2nd book and the tone I get from his "never happened" comments (my opinion, mind you) that he's disappointed that Benoit is been made an "unperson" in WWE and no one will be able to see just how good he was in the ring.

Sadly, society as a whole will define Benoit for those last 72 hours.

I can't blame society for that one. As great a wrestler he was, his final three days is definitely the bigger issue in the grand scheme of things.

[chazraps]

Sept 21, 2011 11:41:07 GMT -5 Clash, Never a Meter Maid said:

Sept 20, 2011 12:18:40 GMT -5 Nikki Heyman said:

I've read Jericho's 2nd book and the tone I get from his "never happened" comments (my opinion, mind you) that he's disappointed that Benoit is been made an "unperson" in WWE and no one will be able to see just how good he was in the ring.

Sadly, society as a whole will define Benoit for those last 72 hours.

I can't blame society for that one. As great a wrestler he was, his final three days is definitely the bigger issue in the grand scheme of things.

I have no problem calling somebody who intentionally lead to the death of their own child a "child killer," regardless of the chronological placement of the action in their lives.

[Porky's Butthole]

Most of you in this thread are my kinda people. To the guy who said:

"I think the better question is, is this fair to Benoit? He had a great wrestling career. I don't think the last 72 hrs of someones life should define everything they have ever done up to that point. Yeah how he went out was wrong....but it doesn't discount what he accomplished in the ring."

Let's say you work at a Wendy's. The guy who works along side of you has won several Employee of the Month awards, and even a few Employee of the District, Year, ect..

Then one day, you're watching TV and they show a picture of him and the newsman says 'He killed his child, wife and then himself.'

Can you honestly say that the next day/week/month/year, you'll be back in the walk-in fridge talking to a co-worker about him and say 'Yeah, he killed his family and himself, BUT YOU SHOULDA SEEN THE WAY HE MADE THE BACONATOR!!"

[johnpricesuperstar]

Sept 22, 2011 0:38:12 GMT -5 Porky's Butthole said:

Most of you in this thread are my kinda people. To the guy who said:

"I think the better question is, is this fair to Benoit? He had a great wrestling career. I don't think the last 72 hrs of someones life should define everything they have ever done up to that point. Yeah how he went out was wrong....but it doesn't discount what he accomplished in the ring."

Let's say you work at a Wendy's. The guy who works along side of you has won several Employee of the Month awards, and even a few Employee of the District, Year, ect..

Then one day, you're watching TV and they show a picture of him and the newsman says 'He killed his child, wife and then himself.'

Can you honestly say that the next day/week/month/year, you'll be back in the walk-in fridge talking to a co-worker about him and say 'Yeah, he killed his family and himself, BUT YOU SHOULDA SEEN THE WAY HE MADE THE BACONATOR!!"

The issue is that Benoit was an entertainer. Should the WWE have ignored the Von Erichs- a family infamous for mass suicides and abuse- no they put them in the hall of fame.

Should the WWE blacklist all wrestlers who died from years of Drug abuse (like Curt Henning) or from Suicide?

Should we ever judge an entertainer for anything else than what they did best- entertain us?

Don't get me wrong- i don't like what Benoit did- but I don't like the way other wrestlers chose to self harm and destroy their lives either.

[donny]

Sept 22, 2011 4:50:52 GMT -5 johnpricesuperstar said:

Sept 22, 2011 0:38:12 GMT -5 Porky's Butthole said:

Most of you in this thread are my kinda people. To the guy who said:

"I think the better question is, is this fair to Benoit? He had a great wrestling career. I don't think the last 72 hrs of someones life should define everything they have ever done up to that point. Yeah how he went out was wrong....but it doesn't discount what he accomplished in the ring."

Let's say you work at a Wendy's. The guy who works along side of you has won several Employee of the Month awards, and even a few Employee of the District, Year, ect..

Then one day, you're watching TV and they show a picture of him and the newsman says 'He killed his child, wife and then himself.'

Can you honestly say that the next day/week/month/year, you'll be back in the walk-in fridge talking to a co-worker about him and say 'Yeah, he killed his family and himself, BUT YOU SHOULDA SEEN THE WAY HE MADE THE BACONATOR!!"

The issue is that Benoit was an entertainer. Should the WWE have ignored the Von Erichs- a family infamous for mass suicides and abuse- no they put them in the hall of fame.

Should the WWE blacklist all wrestlers who died from years of Drug abuse (like Curt Henning) or from Suicide?

Should we ever judge an entertainer for anything else than what they did best- entertain us?

Don't get me wrong- i don't like what Benoit did- but I don't like the way other wrestlers chose to self harm and destroy their lives either.

If Benoit had just committed suicide, he would be a sore subject for WWE but an approachable one. After a few years, he would likely even go into the hall of fame. But not only did he kill himself, he killed a child: his own child!!! That immediately cancels any good entertainment value in the guy

It's like I told a friend of mine the other day: who gives a crap about preserving Chris Benoit's wrestling legacy? The sorry bastard wasn't even concerned with his real life legacy - you know, his son, Daniel!

[Nikki Heyman]

Sept 22, 2011 4:50:52 GMT -5 johnpricesuperstar said:

Sept 22, 2011 0:38:12 GMT -5 Porky's Butthole said:

Most of you in this thread are my kinda people. To the guy who said:

"I think the better question is, is this fair to Benoit? He had a great wrestling career. I don't think the last 72 hrs of someones life should define everything they have ever done up to that point. Yeah how he went out was wrong....but it doesn't discount what he accomplished in the ring."

Let's say you work at a Wendy's. The guy who works along side of you has won several Employee of the Month awards, and even a few Employee of the District, Year, ect..

Then one day, you're watching TV and they show a picture of him and the newsman says 'He killed his child, wife and then himself.'

Can you honestly say that the next day/week/month/year, you'll be back in the walk-in fridge talking to a co-worker about him and say 'Yeah, he killed his family and himself, BUT YOU SHOULDA SEEN THE WAY HE MADE THE BACONATOR!!"

The issue is that Benoit was an entertainer. Should the WWE have ignored the Von Erichs- a family infamous for mass suicides and abuse- no they put them in the hall of fame.

Should the WWE blacklist all wrestlers who died from years of Drug abuse (like Curt Henning) or from Suicide?

Should we ever judge an entertainer for anything else than what they did best- entertain us?

Don't get me wrong- i don't like what Benoit did- but I don't like the way other wrestlers chose to self harm and destroy their lives either.

To the Wendy's comparison- comparing a solid career at a fast food restaurant to 20+ years of entertaining people the world over is a bit over the top.

People don't judge Michael Jackson for maiming his face or touching kids or abusing his body with drugs, they still listen to his music.

What Chris Benoit did at the end of his life was wrong. I will always acknowledge that (because there are people on here I'm sure who think I don't because I defend him). What I also acknowledge what I DON'T know, which is what his mental state at the time was. It doesn't forgive, condone, or erase the event. BUT, if the man wasn't in his right mind - no matter what put him in that dark place to begin with.

We know the who, we're pretty sure on the how, but we will never know WHY.

Chris Jericho said in one of the interviews after the tragedy "you could put 1,000 people against a wall and Chris Benoit is the last person I would have picked to be capable of such a thing."

[Porky's Butthole]

Sept 22, 2011 8:35:34 GMT -5 Nikki Heyman said:

Sept 22, 2011 4:50:52 GMT -5 johnpricesuperstar said:

The issue is that Benoit was an entertainer. Should the WWE have ignored the Von Erichs- a family infamous for mass suicides and abuse- no they put them in the hall of fame.

Should the WWE blacklist all wrestlers who died from years of Drug abuse (like Curt Henning) or from Suicide?

Should we ever judge an entertainer for anything else than what they did best- entertain us?

Don't get me wrong- i don't like what Benoit did- but I don't like the way other wrestlers chose to self harm and destroy their lives either.

To the Wendy's comparison- comparing a solid career at a fast food restaurant to 20+ years of entertaining people the world over is a bit over the top.

People don't judge Michael Jackson for maiming his face or touching kids or abusing his body with drugs, they still listen to his music.

What Chris Benoit did at the end of his life was wrong. I will always acknowledge that (because there are people on here I'm sure who think I don't because I defend him). What I also acknowledge what I DON'T know, which is what his mental state at the time was. It doesn't forgive, condone, or erase the event. BUT, if the man wasn't in his right mind - no matter what put him in that dark place to begin with.

Let's do these one at a time...

-It doesn't matter one bit what he did for a living. Being revered for doing what you do very well is not a reason to ignore the fact that the man is a murderer.

-Nobody judges Michael Jackson for his alleged charges or for maiming his face? People have been doing that since *I* was a child.

-Had this just been some regular Joe who had done this, what would your honest reaction be? Let's say in a town near you; not your town per se, but the next town over. It's all over the news that some random guy killed his wife, his child and them himself. Then, weeks later, it's said/rumored/whatever that he might have/did/whatever brain damage.

If this was someone whom you didn't admire at some time in your life, would you feel differently?

I know it's difficult to answer a question like that for some people, and that's fine. But, to take it to an extreme level, let's say it's revealed tomorrow that Hitler suffered from severe brain damage. So much that he, most of the time, didn't know who he was or what he was doing....would you be able to overlook that?

[Nikki Heyman]

Sept 22, 2011 18:00:33 GMT -5 Porky's Butthole said:

Sept 22, 2011 8:35:34 GMT -5 Nikki Heyman said:

To the Wendy's comparison- comparing a solid career at a fast food restaurant to 20+ years of entertaining people the world over is a bit over the top.

People don't judge Michael Jackson for maiming his face or touching kids or abusing his body with drugs, they still listen to his music.

What Chris Benoit did at the end of his life was wrong. I will always acknowledge that (because there are people on here I'm sure who think I don't because I defend him). What I also acknowledge what I DON'T know, which is what his mental state at the time was. It doesn't forgive, condone, or erase the event. BUT, if the man wasn't in his right mind - no matter what put him in that dark place to begin with.

Let's do these one at a time...

-It doesn't matter one bit what he did for a living. Being revered for doing what you do very well is not a reason to ignore the fact that the man is a murderer.

-Nobody judges Michael Jackson for his alleged charges or for maiming his face? People have been doing that since *I* was a child.

-Had this just been some regular Joe who had done this, what would your honest reaction be? Let's say in a town near you; not your town per se, but the next town over. It's all over the news that some random guy killed his wife, his child and them himself. Then, weeks later, it's said/rumored/whatever that he might have/did/whatever brain damage.

If this was someone whom you didn't admire at some time in your life, would you feel differently?

I know it's difficult to answer a question like that for some people, and that's fine. But, to take it to an extreme level, let's say it's revealed tomorrow that Hitler suffered from severe brain damage. So much that he, most of the time, didn't know who he was or what he was doing....would you be able to overlook that?

comparing slinging burgers to entertaining millions of fans is extreme.

Again, I am NOT ignoring the fact three people are dead. I am NOT ignoring the fact that a lot of people believe that he did it. I am NOT ignoring the fact that you have a right to your opinion.

What you are ignoring is that we do not have 100% proof that he did it, and indeed if he did, did he do it in cold blood and in a pre-meditated manner. None of us were in that house over the weekend and no one who was can tell us anything.

Nice to see Godwin's law in full force here....

I've seen the documentaries "High Hitler" and "Thrd Reich: The Rise". There was a time that Hitler was considered a positive revolutionary as he brought prosperity to his country after it had been devastated by World War I. However, the evidence of him doing it at the expense of the Jewish people is not excused and thus it would be difficult, if not impossible, to see him in present day in a positive light. You're talking about millions of deaths - and survivors who told us what brought this about.

We don't have survivors in Benoit's case who were there when this atrocity happened. Thus, you have chosen guilty before proven innocent.

ETA: on your "Regular joe" deal - there's a case here in town where the daughter of some high muck-a-muck from the media struck and killed a legal immigrant and fled the scene. The sympathy to the DRIVER is bigger than to the victim's family. You tell me how I should feel.

[Oak: Certified Jade Hater]

I look at it like this (and I've said this in the past)

I will always respect and admire Chris Benoit as a wrestler. That was someone who inspired me and someone I could look up to.

Chris Benoit the person? The man outside the ring? I never knew him. I never saw him. What he did was inexcusable, no one's ever going to say otherwise. However, we don't know his mental state at the time, we don't know if he was sane or out of his mind. I do think that when he realized what he did, he was overcome with grief and made up for it the only way he knew, and that was to commit suicide.

Maybe this kind of thinking isn't popular, but that's the way I choose to look at it. The wrestler and the person are two different things to me (there's even a thread on this kind of thing), but I understand if not everyone sees it that way.

[RowdyRobbyPiper]

Sept 23, 2011 14:42:48 GMT -5 Oak: Certified Jade Hater said:

I look at it like this (and I've said this in the past)

I will always respect and admire Chris Benoit as a wrestler. That was someone who inspired me and someone I could look up to.

Chris Benoit the person? The man outside the ring? I never knew him. I never saw him. What he did was inexcusable, no one's ever going to say otherwise. However, we don't know his mental state at the time, we don't know if he was sane or out of his mind. I do think that when he realized what he did, he was overcome with grief and made up for it the only way he knew, and that was to commit suicide.

Maybe this kind of thinking isn't popular, but that's the way I choose to look at it. The wrestler and the person are two different things to me (there's even a thread on this kind of thing), but I understand if not everyone sees it that way.

You aren't alone. That's my take on Benoit as well.

[chazraps]

Sept 23, 2011 13:37:27 GMT -5 Nikki Heyman said:

What you are ignoring is that we do not have 100% proof that he did it, .

Yes, we do. Clearly he did it. Why else would be be playing with his son outside the day after killing his wife while his dead wife was in the house? Why else would there be padded support around his own neck to make his suicide more comfortable? There's mountains of proof and a detailed investigation proving he did it. Chris Benoit, over the course of a weekend, murdered his wife, his son and then himself. How is this even still a question?