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Post by AndyUK on Oct 7, 2011 17:07:06 GMT -5
To a lot of people, having a PG rating equals a kid friendly show and people of an older age are embarassed to like something that they believe is for kids, so they'll criticise regardless.
I think that is the main reason.
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Post by joebob27 on Oct 7, 2011 17:15:56 GMT -5
Alot of it is probably Cena's character which is just so overtly over the top ridiculous. Add that in with how lame the midcard was and how no one else was on his level, it just ='s blech. I think they're alot better in that regard now. FWIW, 80's wrestling was PG. But there was a line drawn where they were trying to entertain adults too, and as sappy as Hogan was he was still over with adults and shit, he was edgy compared to Kiddie Panderer Cena. I think for awhile the product was missing what the 80's product had and that was something that appeals to anyone over the age of 8. So really, I think the post with the two pictures is the best answer. People will blow it off saying it's just outliers or two guys or whatever, but the product was EXTREME kiddie pandering up until a couple of months ago.
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Cronant
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by Cronant on Oct 7, 2011 17:27:09 GMT -5
I didn't see the extreme kiddy pandering. At all.
I loved alot of the feuds. Cena/Orton. Jericho/Rey. Punk/Hardy. Not much 'kiddie' stuff there. Or HHH/Orton, as great as that started. Alot of those things are for all audiences.
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Post by joebob27 on Oct 7, 2011 17:30:02 GMT -5
Like I said it's all in Cena's character. He dominated Raw and the character is a massive turnoff to males, aged say, 14 to infinity.
You could have the other feuds some of which were good (and of course some of them were on Smackdown away from that crap), but the problem was Cena was going to get the 9/10/11PM ET segments ever week with his lame gimmick.
And it went on like that for a couple of years
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2011 17:30:34 GMT -5
Honestly 95% of the stuff worth doing they can do with it being TV-PG.
They put out a lot of dumb stuff, but it's bad because it's dumb, not because it is TV-PG.
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Post by DZ: WF Legacy on Oct 7, 2011 17:33:12 GMT -5
YT is void of logic and mental maturity as a whole. A lot of that community is kids/young adults who are going through that phase where they're trying to act older than they are, so they look at the the things targeted towards older people, or things that are regarded to as "mature", and they think they have to like those things to be cool. They fail to realize that any grown up adult can appreciate things that aren't vulgar or over-sexual, and that's what outs them as just a bunch of dumb teenagers being dumb teenagers. This kind of mentality is very prevalent in the video game communities, too. The thing about the internet is that it brings adults and teens together in a way they were never intended to communicate, so the result is a lot of weird maturity related issues and people lying about their age.
You also have to figure that people look at things with rose-tinted glasses, and they tend to not even realize their biases play such a role in how they view life. That makes them ignore basic logic and blanket everything under the convenient umbrella of PG. That also makes them fail to realize how much better the in-ring product has gotten in the past several years. You can't overhaul the business overnight, we're in a transitional period right now.
Most of the valid criticisms of PG are actually to do with the booking, which just like most of the complaints, existed before PG was even around.
I will say though, some of the actual PG-related issues do or have distracted from the product. There was a period of time where they couldn't even say "ass", and while as an adult I don't need to hear that word to feel validated, it did get frustrating sometimes. Austin coming back with Lawler saying "opening up a can of...well, you know what!" was pretty grating, for instance. As far as the no-blood stuff goes, that one varies too. I don't care if I grew up watching guys bleed all the time, it gets old and means nothing if it happens every week or every other week. However, when you do something like Hell in the Cell, or you have a really brutal feud-ending match, blood does help with telling the story or the struggle. Seeing guys get busted open the hard way only to be rushed with the towels, putting the match on hold because of a little blood, is downright irritating. The best example I have is the first TLC PPV, in the Shelton/Christian ladder match. People justifiably feel like the more kid-friendly approach takes away from moments and memories when stuff like that happens.
When people mention the stuff with Cena and Hornswoggle, I just can't help but be reminded of the fact that both of those guys were around before PG. People romanticize Cena as a rapper, but really...if you think sexual innuendos and accusations of someone being gay is "edgy and adult!!!11" then you'll never get the advantages of a more family-friendly WWE. I will say this though...in 2009, the PG DX and Hornswoggle stuff was really testing my patience as a fan. If that's what people hated about PG, then I'm on board with that. That's where they made it way too ridiculous. Things a different now, thankfully.
But a lot of these excessively vocal critics don't seem to know anything about wrestling history or business, really. Wrestling has been through this cycle before. And most of us became fans when WE were kids. It's hilarious hypocritical, because all those Cena fans? They're gonna be adults one day who won't ever tire of mentioning the "entertainment era" and how good "it used to be". It's called romanticizing and nostalgia. I sense a parallel theme of attitudes...
In WWE's current state, where they're a little lax with the language and some of the actions on-screen, WWE can be really, REALLY good. If they'd just do away with some of the gimmick PPVs (mainly HITC), allow blood on special occasions, etc. I think they'd hit the sweet spot. From there, it would entirely be up to the booking and taking risks. And that's where things kinda fall apart.
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Cronant
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 17,556
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Post by Cronant on Oct 7, 2011 17:34:28 GMT -5
Like I said it's all in Cena's character. He dominated Raw and the character is a massive turnoff to males, aged say, 14 to infinity. You could have the other feuds some of which were good (and of course some of them were on Smackdown away from that crap), but the problem was Cena was going to get the 9/10/11PM ET segments ever week with his lame gimmick. And it went on like that for a couple of years Cena dominated RAW years before PG. It wasn't that much different. If anything his gimmick stands out amongst others. Hell, his face raps on 2004 Smackdown were generally worse than the promos he's had since. Like I said, way overblown. Was there some dumb stuff, yeah, but dumb stuff always happens.
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Post by avenger on Oct 7, 2011 17:36:35 GMT -5
Regarding blood in matches, well they do add some intensity to matches and I respect it if they tone it down in some areas, but in matches like the Hell in a Cell matches or Elimination Chamber matches, lack of blood doesn't really make sense to me if there is to be carnage, but even lack of blood doesn't make it a bad match. So, the fact that wrestler have Cage and Cell matches without bleeding doesn't make sense, but it would make more sense if they secretly cut themselves to pretend that they were really bleeding? Isn't most of this the general consensus around here? The only thing that really bugs me, and it doesn't really happen these days, is when they stop a match for blood. That's just ridiculous, especially the Christian / Shelton Benjamin match where Benjamin didn't just immediately rush up the ladder afterward. You think stopping the Christian/Benjamin match was stupid? I'll tell you what would have been stupid - not stopping the match. Christian didn't give himself a little nick on the top of his forehead to provide a nice visual effect. He cut his eyelid. Now, think about that, A guy cuts his eyelid, and if no-one runs in to stop it, it could swell up, it could restrict his vision. And you want him to then take part in a 15-20 minute ladder match? That wouldn't be stupid, that would be reckless. A similar cut in boxing would see the match stopped if they couldn't stem the flow of blood - because the boxer concerned wouldn't be able to defend himself adequately because of restricted vision. They've stopped very few matches for blood, but everytime they have, it's made sense. When Punk/Mysterio was stopped, Punk subsequently needed sixteen stitches in the wound. When Cena/Orton was stopped fifteen minutes into a hour long iron match (and let's remember, they waited until after the next fall), it was because losing blood for 45 minutes isn't healthy. JBL said that Eddie was still suffering the effects of his blade job in their match at Judgment Day a month later. When you give blood, they advise you against strenuous activity for 24 hours, and they give you that advice for a reason. You'll notice that when guys had a little blood coming from their nose or their mouth, they didn't stop the match. They only did it when it could be problematic for the wrestler concerned. That's not stupid, that's finally taking an interest in their wrestler's well being. (And the reason that Shelton didn't just rush up the ladder while the match was stopped was because, get this - the match was stopped) Agree with what Krimson said. The WWE was PG at times in the Hulkamania/Rock n Wrestling era, but didn't go too kiddie friendly. The WWE was PG from the moment it first got TV until 1997. When Goldust was his most suggestive, when Mankind was at his freakiest, when DX at their rudest, the WWE was PG.
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Post by Loser troll. Please ban me on Oct 7, 2011 17:37:21 GMT -5
PG isn't the problem at all. Nitro was able to kick RAW's ass in the ratings for a year and a half with a PG product. The thing is, WCW did PG the right way. They didn't have bad language or excessive blood or sexual content, but they did have serious angles with interesting characters that were aimed at adults.
WWE's problem these days is that they're doing exactly what Vince always badmouthed ECW for, which is trying to only appeal to a portion of their fanbase rather than the entire fanbase. WWE is so concerned with little kids that they're neglecting the large adult section of fans. Again going back to Nitro, little kids and adults alike loved things like the NWO vs. Sting angle, just further proving that PG isn't the problem. Trying to be a kids show is the problem.
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Post by joebob27 on Oct 7, 2011 17:39:47 GMT -5
Like I said it's all in Cena's character. He dominated Raw and the character is a massive turnoff to males, aged say, 14 to infinity. You could have the other feuds some of which were good (and of course some of them were on Smackdown away from that crap), but the problem was Cena was going to get the 9/10/11PM ET segments ever week with his lame gimmick. And it went on like that for a couple of years Cena dominated RAW years before PG. It wasn't that much different. If anything his gimmick stands out amongst others. Hell, his face raps on 2004 Smackdown were generally worse than the promos he's had since. Like I said, way overblown. Was there some dumb stuff, yeah, but dumb stuff always happens. But that character related to that crowd. The question was why does a certain group hate a certain type of programming (whether a perception or reality). The answer is pretty much John Cena. You may not agree with it, but it is what is is. The character doesn't relate, the character dominated the shows and if anything just got more sappy as it went along. That's pretty much it. If face rapping Cena (which I agree got pretty cheesy) came back tomorrow, he'd be back "over" with that audience within 2 months. Funny but true. I seriously think the "'Lil Jimmy" program is one of the worst things WWE/F has ever done. And the buyrate backs that one up. If it wasn't for Truth it actually would have been worse. And when I think of PG Raw, I think of the Lil Jimmy angle
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Cronant
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 17,556
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Post by Cronant on Oct 7, 2011 17:43:45 GMT -5
And all I get from that is "blame it on Cena" The only change Cena made from 2007-2009 was his shirts.
Again, from 2008-now, you can sight one angle that lasted a month? I give you Edge/Taker, Jericho/Rey, Punk/Hardy, Cena/Orton, HBK/Taker, Orton/HHH, Punk/Rey, etc. etc.
All of which would have fit in any era. Thats why the PG argument seems laughable. "Its Cena" is all you got?
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Post by joebob27 on Oct 7, 2011 17:48:53 GMT -5
He's the franchise of the show, what do you want me to tell you? lol. You don't have to agree with it. If you don't dislike it, it's not possible for you to understand anyway.
All of his feuds since that date have been pretty much the same, dumb promos that don't take anything seriously, more dumb promos with Pre-K poop/fart humor, and the eventually "overcoming the odds" superhero act.
His serious acting in alot of the angles (think Nexus) was acting like a sad 5 year old. It's uncanny and it's almost like they had him act in a way kids would understand. lol.
Human Jar of Mayo, "doctor's note", etc. It's not an adult character, plain and simple. So it would not appeal to an adult audience. Why this is surprising, I don't know.
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Post by Oh Cry Me a Screwball on Oct 7, 2011 17:49:29 GMT -5
YT commenters also have the worst nostalgia blinders that I have ever seen. Remember Brian Christopher's god awful return earlier in the year where he was under his Grand Master Sexay gimmick and he blew up dancing in the first minute? Go look for a video of it and sure enough you will find that the average comment condemns the PG era because they had the gall not to give a washed up midcarder from 10 years ago a standing ovation.
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Cronant
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 17,556
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Post by Cronant on Oct 7, 2011 17:54:50 GMT -5
He's the franchise of the show, what do you want me to tell you? lol. You don't have to agree with it. If you don't dislike it, it's not possible for you to understand anyway. All of his feuds since that date have been pretty much the same, dumb promos that don't take anything seriously, more dumb promos with Pre-K poop/fart humor, and the eventually "overcoming the odds" superhero act. His serious acting in alot of the angles (think Nexus) was acting like a sad 5 year old. It's uncanny and it's almost like they had him act in a way kids would understand. lol. Human Jar of Mayo, "doctor's note", etc. It's not an adult character, plain and simple. So it would not appeal to an adult audience. Why this is surprising, I don't know. Well I don't agree with it. I think, the problem is that some fans are just so offended that ONE guy dare acknowledge the fact that his fans are kids. Nevermind the rest of the show, or the rest of the roster, that ONE prominent guy doing so and the company changing its ratings and a few policies means they're pandering. Like its a personal insult. Even though RAW in 2009 was primarily built around Randy Orton punting people and his stable. And 2010 had a Nexus invasion as its main story. Neither of which were exactly rainbows and glitter. Thats why so many people want a heel turn or a ratings change. Nevermind the fact that Cena has always had his moments where he's not all good.
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Post by joebob27 on Oct 7, 2011 17:59:13 GMT -5
It's your right not to agree with it, I'm not quite sure why you are so offended. It has nothing to do with him acknowledging his fans are kids.
It has everything to do with his character being written like an overgrown 8 year old. It doesn't appeal to alot of adults. Clearly you're one of the exceptions.
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Celgress
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Superior One
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Post by Celgress on Oct 7, 2011 17:59:20 GMT -5
In all honesty I feel it has more to do with the fact that the product was more well rounded than blood, boobs & hyper violence. This was because every wrestler was given storyline focus to some degree, it wasn't all just placed upon/built around the top tier guys. Everyone from the Rock through the lower card comedy act Too Cool were over like rover and enjoyed equally each in their own way by the masses. Back then myself, my friends & my family enjoyed the whole show and all the acts not just the those of the top guys.
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MrBRulzOK
Wade Wilson
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Something Witty Here.
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Post by MrBRulzOK on Oct 7, 2011 18:25:59 GMT -5
I would think the Youth for Western Civilization would approve of the PG stance, actually. At least as willing as they were to approve of anything WWE related.
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Post by Ryback on a Pole! on Oct 7, 2011 18:54:39 GMT -5
PG isn't the problem at all. Nitro was able to kick RAW's ass in the ratings for a year and a half with a PG product. The thing is, WCW did PG the right way. They didn't have bad language or excessive blood or sexual content, but they did have serious angles with interesting characters that were aimed at adults.
WWE's problem these days is that they're doing exactly what Vince always badmouthed ECW for, which is trying to only appeal to a portion of their fanbase rather than the entire fanbase. WWE is so concerned with little kids that they're neglecting the large adult section of fans. Again going back to Nitro, little kids and adults alike loved things like the NWO vs. Sting angle, just further proving that PG isn't the problem. Trying to be a kids show is the problem. That be a great post. I'll give WWE credit in recent months, they seem to be trying to appeal to all aspects of the audience now. Ever since the beginnings of the CM Punk vs Cena feud, they've dropped much of the crap and focussed on good, entertaining storylines that make the show fun to watch. I love the WWE at the moment and, although I often bash them, I'll give creative credit for writing quality television right now.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Oct 7, 2011 19:04:02 GMT -5
Every generation sees things in a more positive light that occurred during their youth. They also tend to ignored the negatives. Each era in wrestling had good and bad. Those who grew up with the Hulkamania are more likely to have fonder memories of that time than some who grew up during the Attitude Era. Plus many people see children as the reason why wrestling is suffering now. Nevermind the fact that the same argument happened during the 80's and early 90's. And there were complainants of the Attitude Era being too racy and raunchy from adult fans.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2011 20:27:39 GMT -5
The YouTube comment section is full of intolerance, conspiracy theories, take thats at Bieber...and bitching about how the good ole' days were better.
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