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Post by Koda, Master Crunchyroller on Apr 17, 2012 21:46:18 GMT -5
The Quarians aren't at all like anything you just listed. Hell I'm not even talking about the Admiralty Board, which is the only way any of your examples would apply. Remember, the Quarians started the Morning War. It is their own fault they didn't live on Rannoch anymore. Hell the Geth drove them away just so there would even be a Quarian race left! And yet they never learned from their lesson. Their future generations grew up thinking the Geth rose up against the Quarians and started the war, they thought they had to take back Rannoch by force. Only one of the Admirals even had any clue as to the real solution, peace. But noooooooo, the majority of the Quarians had a "the Geth MUST die policy", and well, look what that got them, the entire destruction of their race(at least in my playthrough). Those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it, and that's what happened with the Quarians. They didn't learn that they caused the war, and they end up being the aggressors against the Geth yet again. The Admiralty Board may be the biggest dicks of the bunch, but nearly the entire race is at least partially dickish. It is totally the same thing. "The Quarians" this and "The Quarians" that. You're labeling an entire group of billions of people based on the actions of a power-abusing minority; in this case, Quarian leadership; prior and during the Morning War led to the abuse of the Geth. Quarian leadership on the Flotilla afterwards leads to war. Legion points out that during the Morning War, the anti-Geth faction overpowered what was a sizable pro-Geth faction, and that most individuals (including Geth programs themselves) conveniently ignore this truth. If the Quarians stay on the Flotilla they will be doomed. Their ships cannot hold up for long, and their attempts to colonize other worlds have led to the Council booting them off these planets. They don't have much choice but to fight back--unless both can be convinced to share Rannoch. The fact that, if you choose this option, the Quarians are eager to accept it, points out that they're not so bad after all. They've just been cornered for so long. If Raan had sided with Tali and Koris over Xen and Han, Quarian history would've done a 180 from the "war reboot" that you see in ME3. They would've been at peace with the Geth and Shepard would've not been quite so important to it all. Read between the lines on the Quarian Question: is it right to condemn an entire race based on the actions of foolhardy leadership? Especially when the foolhardy leadership outvotes the level-headed leadership by the slimmest possible margin? This isn't science-fiction. This is racial and social commentary. No, the Quarians are NOT like the Ugandans and North Koreans. Neither group created an entirely brand new race in their own image, and then was forced out of their homes, leaders included, only to attempt a foolhardy second war with said new race centuries later. They just have dick leaders. Which, like I said, would only apply if I was just focusing on the Quarian leaders. And while there was INITIALLY a stronger pro-Geth than anti-Geth movement, the anti-Geth movement eventually outnumbered the pro-Geth movement, meaning either the anti-Geth Quarians got really good at killing the pro-Geth Quarians, or there was a lot of jumping sides by the pro-Geth Quarians. Plus on top of that, the pro-Geth people were only in favor of protecting/preserving the Geth that at that point didn't take up arms to defend the other Geth. Basically, what I'm saying is even the "good" Quarians weren't fully behind the Geth, just the ones that in their mind hadn't gone homicidal yet. They were totally in favor of putting down the Geth that had already rebelled. And this all came from the Quarians reacting to fear. They feared the Geth. If they instead trusted the Geth(or, you know, didn't try to make cheap labor in the first f***ing place), none of this would've happened. Did it even occur to them that they didn't stand one iota of a chance against the Geth a second time? Their population went from billions to just 17 million as a result of their last go with the Geth, how could anyone, Admiral or otherwise, look at their situation and go, "Yep, we could take them this time!"? Trying to get peace should've been the only thing on their mind. The mere idea of war being on the table except as a last ditch effort was too stupid on the part of the Quarians. I'm sorry, but I just can't feel sorry for the Quarians after ME3. They reaped what they sowed.
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jagilki
Patti Mayonnaise
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f*** Cancer
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Post by jagilki on Apr 17, 2012 21:53:26 GMT -5
Don't forget also. The Quarians....
Don't really exist.
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Post by Red Impact on Apr 17, 2012 21:55:53 GMT -5
It's been 300 years since the Morning War. Billions of Quarians, including those who didn't want to fight the Geth, were killed in the war. They had their rights stripped by the Council and drew the ire of pretty much every species in the Galaxy. They are confined to a flotilla because, biologically, they can't really survive anywhere else. The starships, being what they are, have very little room as is, and all that is there has to be used for important and useful material. They don't even have enough room to stay on the ships all their lives, they have to go out to the galaxy that hates them, dirt poor, and prove their worth or die trying before they can be accepted again, all because they have no room and no choice. Oh, and that species that drove you off the home planet willfully turned hostile and tried to wipe out all other advanced species in the galaxy... twice.
All the while, how many generations would have lived their entire lives on the fleet? 10? 15?
The average Quarian isn't guilty for what happened in the Morning War, and there's a pretty good chance that information might not even be in the database, after generations have had time to, for lack of a better term, indoctrinate their people and, if any data was around, wipe it out or alter it. There's a good chance that no one has any knowledge of the fine details of it.
And they're not guilty for the Admiralty Board going to war either. It'd be like blaming every citizen of a country for every decision made by the government. They don't get to vote on every decision, they don't have the power to make all the choices, the ones who run the ships (under martial law, mind you) make all of the decisions. We don't know how many Quarians don't want the war, but fight because they literally have no where else they could go and nothing else they could do. You can't really be a conscientious objector in that situation.
And finally, let's not forget that the prospect of peace may not have been very high in the Geth's priorities either. They have reason not to trust the Quarians, and they gave the rest of the galaxy reason to not trust them. They could have viewed any attempts at piece as a ploy to get close and take Rannoch back.
The quarians really have no options at that point in ME3. They aren't strong enough to destroy the Reapers on their own, and if they try, their population will be absolutely decimated. They're backed against a wall.
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Post by Koda, Master Crunchyroller on Apr 17, 2012 22:09:35 GMT -5
It's been 300 years since the Morning War. Billions of Quarians, including those who didn't want to fight the Geth, were killed in the war. They had their rights stripped by the Council and drew the ire of pretty much every species in the Galaxy. They are confined to a flotilla because, biologically, they can't really survive anywhere else. The starships, being what they are, have very little room as is, and all that is there has to be used for important and useful material. They don't even have enough room to stay on the ships all their lives, they have to go out to the galaxy that hates them, dirt poor, and prove their worth or die trying before they can be accepted again, all because they have no room and no choice. Oh, and that species that drove you off the home planet willfully turned hostile and tried to wipe out all other advanced species in the galaxy... twice. All the while, how many generations would have lived their entire lives on the fleet? 10? 15? The average Quarian isn't guilty for what happened in the Morning War, and there's a pretty good chance that information might not even be in the database, after generations have had time to, for lack of a better term, indoctrinate their people and, if any data was around, wipe it out or alter it. There's a good chance that no one has any knowledge of the fine details of it. And they're not guilty for the Admiralty Board going to war either. It'd be like blaming every citizen of a country for every decision made by the government. They don't get to vote on every decision, they don't have the power to make all the choices, the ones who run the ships (under martial law, mind you) make all of the decisions. We don't know how many Quarians don't want the war, but fight because they literally have no where else they could go and nothing else they could do. You can't really be a conscientious objector in that situation. And finally, let's not forget that the prospect of peace may not have been very high in the Geth's priorities either. They have reason not to trust the Quarians, and they gave the rest of the galaxy reason to not trust them. They could have viewed any attempts at piece as a ploy to get close and take Rannoch back. The quarians really have no options at that point in ME3. They aren't strong enough to destroy the Reapers on their own, and if they try, their population will be absolutely decimated. They're backed against a wall. You keep talking as if all Geth were the same. Did you forget that the Geth that tried to wipeout the galaxy were the minority, the "heretics" as the rest of the Geth refer to them? And that the majority of the Geth were like Legion and DID want peace with the Quarians? The majority of the Geth INTENTIONALLY stayed behind the Perseus Veil. Until Shepard gains the use of their forces, the only Geth platforms to leave the Veil were Legion and the heretic platforms. And let's not forget, the Geth let the remaining Quarians live, instead of shooting their ships out of the sky as they left Rannoch! They easily could've wiped out the Quarians if they wanted to, but they didn't. If the Quarians didn't go flying in guns blazing, I have a strong feeling that the Geth would've been willing to listen to them. Hell it is the Quarians' fault that the majority Geth made a deal with the Reapers in ME3 to begin with, and they only did it because they were getting attacked.
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Post by Red Impact on Apr 17, 2012 23:15:03 GMT -5
It's been 300 years since the Morning War. Billions of Quarians, including those who didn't want to fight the Geth, were killed in the war. They had their rights stripped by the Council and drew the ire of pretty much every species in the Galaxy. They are confined to a flotilla because, biologically, they can't really survive anywhere else. The starships, being what they are, have very little room as is, and all that is there has to be used for important and useful material. They don't even have enough room to stay on the ships all their lives, they have to go out to the galaxy that hates them, dirt poor, and prove their worth or die trying before they can be accepted again, all because they have no room and no choice. Oh, and that species that drove you off the home planet willfully turned hostile and tried to wipe out all other advanced species in the galaxy... twice. All the while, how many generations would have lived their entire lives on the fleet? 10? 15? The average Quarian isn't guilty for what happened in the Morning War, and there's a pretty good chance that information might not even be in the database, after generations have had time to, for lack of a better term, indoctrinate their people and, if any data was around, wipe it out or alter it. There's a good chance that no one has any knowledge of the fine details of it. And they're not guilty for the Admiralty Board going to war either. It'd be like blaming every citizen of a country for every decision made by the government. They don't get to vote on every decision, they don't have the power to make all the choices, the ones who run the ships (under martial law, mind you) make all of the decisions. We don't know how many Quarians don't want the war, but fight because they literally have no where else they could go and nothing else they could do. You can't really be a conscientious objector in that situation. And finally, let's not forget that the prospect of peace may not have been very high in the Geth's priorities either. They have reason not to trust the Quarians, and they gave the rest of the galaxy reason to not trust them. They could have viewed any attempts at piece as a ploy to get close and take Rannoch back. The quarians really have no options at that point in ME3. They aren't strong enough to destroy the Reapers on their own, and if they try, their population will be absolutely decimated. They're backed against a wall. You keep talking as if all Geth were the same. Did you forget that the Geth that tried to wipeout the galaxy were the minority, the "heretics" as the rest of the Geth refer to them? And that the majority of the Geth were like Legion and DID want peace with the Quarians? The majority of the Geth INTENTIONALLY stayed behind the Perseus Veil. Until Shepard gains the use of their forces, the only Geth platforms to leave the Veil were Legion and the heretic platforms. And let's not forget, the Geth let the remaining Quarians live, instead of shooting their ships out of the sky as they left Rannoch! They easily could've wiped out the Quarians if they wanted to, but they didn't. If the Quarians didn't go flying in guns blazing, I have a strong feeling that the Geth would've been willing to listen to them. Hell it is the Quarians' fault that the majority Geth made a deal with the Reapers in ME3 to begin with, and they only did it because they were getting attacked. The Geth not pursuing the Quarians had nothing to do with them wanting to make peace. They stopped pursuing them because 1) They didn't see them as a further threat and 2) they just didn't know what else would happen if they destroyed them. They reacted out of fear as well, or the closest equivalent a synthetic organism would have. If they truly wanted peace, they could have proven it by doing something to stop the heretics from declaring war on the galaxy and destroying any hopes that they'd have of making peace. They could have informed the galaxy of the Reapers, backing up Shepherd. They could have come to the consensus that, because they are synthetic, they could live anywhere on the galaxy and don't need to occupy the one and only planet that their creators could survive on. They did none of that, they were complicit in letting the heretics wage their war. Isolationalism is not the same thing as peace. The rest of the Geth gave the galaxy a reason to not trust them. If the Quarians as an entire species should be punished for the decisions of a few, then the Geth should be as well. And the Geth fleet mission really outlined what it could about what happened in the morning war. The Pro-Geth Quarians died trying to protect the Geth. There's really nothing that shows that they jumped sides part way through the war. The Quarians didn't make a slave species. What they were doing is no different than programming a computer to do a task for you, something we all do on a regular basis. Yes, the Geth are more advanced than a laptop, but there's no functional difference. They took steps to try to stop them from gaining a consciousness of their own, it just so happened that somewhere along the line that failed. And you talk about the Quarians like they all made a democratic decision to go to war, but as we saw, the Admiralty board was the real decision maker. Five Quarians got to decide the fate of what, 17 million? And one of them showed that he wanted to make peace, why assume that there aren't any others? For all we know, there are a lot of them who don't want the war. But unlike you or me, who could protest a decision we disagree with or, if worse came to worse, leave the country, the Quarians don't have that option. Quarian engineer working on the engine of his home didn't have any choice in going to war, but his ship is going none-the-less. Anyone dissenting has no where else they can go, no resources they can tap into, and no species that is friendly with them. The only hope for the survival of the species is to act together. The entire situation did make me feel for the Geth, but the circumstances of how the Quarians are still being punished for something their race did 10+ generations ago and seeing absolutely no other option makes it impossible for me not to feel badly for them as well.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2012 16:53:19 GMT -5
You keep talking as if all Geth were the same. Did you forget that the Geth that tried to wipeout the galaxy were the minority, the "heretics" as the rest of the Geth refer to them? And that the majority of the Geth were like Legion and DID want peace with the Quarians? The majority of the Geth INTENTIONALLY stayed behind the Perseus Veil. Until Shepard gains the use of their forces, the only Geth platforms to leave the Veil were Legion and the heretic platforms. And let's not forget, the Geth let the remaining Quarians live, instead of shooting their ships out of the sky as they left Rannoch! They easily could've wiped out the Quarians if they wanted to, but they didn't. If the Quarians didn't go flying in guns blazing, I have a strong feeling that the Geth would've been willing to listen to them. Hell it is the Quarians' fault that the majority Geth made a deal with the Reapers in ME3 to begin with, and they only did it because they were getting attacked. The Geth not pursuing the Quarians had nothing to do with them wanting to make peace. They stopped pursuing them because 1) They didn't see them as a further threat and 2) they just didn't know what else would happen if they destroyed them. They reacted out of fear as well, or the closest equivalent a synthetic organism would have. If they truly wanted peace, they could have proven it by doing something to stop the heretics from declaring war on the galaxy and destroying any hopes that they'd have of making peace. They could have informed the galaxy of the Reapers, backing up Shepherd. They could have come to the consensus that, because they are synthetic, they could live anywhere on the galaxy and don't need to occupy the one and only planet that their creators could survive on. They did none of that, they were complicit in letting the heretics wage their war. Isolationalism is not the same thing as peace. The rest of the Geth gave the galaxy a reason to not trust them. If the Quarians as an entire species should be punished for the decisions of a few, then the Geth should be as well. And the Geth fleet mission really outlined what it could about what happened in the morning war. The Pro-Geth Quarians died trying to protect the Geth. There's really nothing that shows that they jumped sides part way through the war. The Quarians didn't make a slave species. What they were doing is no different than programming a computer to do a task for you, something we all do on a regular basis. Yes, the Geth are more advanced than a laptop, but there's no functional difference. They took steps to try to stop them from gaining a consciousness of their own, it just so happened that somewhere along the line that failed. And you talk about the Quarians like they all made a democratic decision to go to war, but as we saw, the Admiralty board was the real decision maker. Five Quarians got to decide the fate of what, 17 million? And one of them showed that he wanted to make peace, why assume that there aren't any others? For all we know, there are a lot of them who don't want the war. But unlike you or me, who could protest a decision we disagree with or, if worse came to worse, leave the country, the Quarians don't have that option. Quarian engineer working on the engine of his home didn't have any choice in going to war, but his ship is going none-the-less. Anyone dissenting has no where else they can go, no resources they can tap into, and no species that is friendly with them. The only hope for the survival of the species is to act together. The entire situation did make me feel for the Geth, but the circumstances of how the Quarians are still being punished for something their race did 10+ generations ago and seeing absolutely no other option makes it impossible for me not to feel badly for them as well. I was going to post a response but this post explains it well enough that it'd make any response on my part redundant.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Apr 18, 2012 17:00:38 GMT -5
I defy you guys to name one other game series that can create that kind of spirited race relations debate.
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Post by Koda, Master Crunchyroller on Apr 18, 2012 17:09:15 GMT -5
I defy you guys to name one other game series that can create that kind of spirited race relations debate. Not a single f***ing one. Damn I love the Mass Effect series....minus the ending of ME3.....and the combat gameplay of ME1 making playing anything other than Soldier a pain in the ass.
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Post by Zabel Zarock on Apr 18, 2012 19:05:09 GMT -5
I defy you guys to name one other game series that can create that kind of spirited race relations debate. The Witcher
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Post by YAKMAN is ICHIBAN on Apr 18, 2012 19:13:37 GMT -5
I defy you guys to name one other game series that can create that kind of spirited race relations debate. The Witcher I have never played this as I am a dirty console peasant.
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Post by Starshine on Apr 18, 2012 19:25:15 GMT -5
...Wow...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2012 20:45:30 GMT -5
The ME Trilogy gets dismissed as simple SciFi. That may be the backdrop but it's really intelligent in a social context. I think the conceit they play with the krogan and the "uplifting" scenario is even more brilliantly-structured than the quarian experiment (how to treat a people based on minority actions).
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Post by Koda, Master Crunchyroller on Apr 18, 2012 20:59:03 GMT -5
I will say this, this little Quarian/Geth discussion we had was some of the best discussion I've had on this board in a long time. Plus, at least we weren't going back and forth on the damned ending again. Edit: And to think, this all started with me saying how I liked the Batarians!
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Post by Red Impact on Apr 18, 2012 22:21:24 GMT -5
The ME Trilogy gets dismissed as simple SciFi. That may be the backdrop but it's really intelligent in a social context. I think the conceit they play with the krogan and the "uplifting" scenario is even more brilliantly-structured than the quarian experiment (how to treat a people based on minority actions). That's the thing, Sci Fi shouldn't be simple. It's supposed to be a genre that challenges perceptions and presents complex ideas in ways that makes you think of the implications. I say this as a big fan of sci-fi, space operas aren't really representative of what the genre does best. . The Quarian/Geth war and the Genophage problem are two really good examples of how you can put complex situations into sci-fi better than you could if everything was set on Earth, and in turn make you think about what really is right and wrong. That is why I love the genre. When done well, it's not just melodrama in space, it is one of the most thought-provoking genres you can have. These discussions just prove that.
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Post by Starshine on Apr 18, 2012 22:25:17 GMT -5
Still, wow...
Maybe I'm just a lot more shallow than you guys. I pretty much only saw the Geth as bullet cushions.
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Post by Red Impact on Apr 19, 2012 6:53:07 GMT -5
Mass Effect does both the complex sci-fi stuff and the pure action stuff at times, and there's nothing wrong with being more on the action side of it. The Geth spent most of the series as bullet shields, they just threw a lot in there at the end to try to make them otherwise.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,079
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Apr 19, 2012 7:10:58 GMT -5
It says a lot that the Turians seem to have the least to discuss about them.
But even that is by design, making them so rigid and hierarchical makes them stand out by having less that stands out.
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Post by Red Impact on Apr 19, 2012 12:51:33 GMT -5
It says a lot that the Turians seem to have the least to discuss about them. But even that is by design, making them so rigid and hierarchical makes them stand out by having less that stands out. We also don't really seem to visit their culture much at all. At least not in the last 2 games (never played the first). All I could tell you about them is that that they're a military race and Galaxy of Fantasy is based on their mythology.
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Post by WorkingInAColeMine on Apr 19, 2012 12:52:01 GMT -5
That is one way to twist it I guess
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Post by Cyno on Apr 19, 2012 13:16:38 GMT -5
I defy you guys to name one other game series that can create that kind of spirited race relations debate. Warcraft? Seriously, I've seen and participated in some really fascinating discussions about relations between the Alliance and Horde and the individual races both inter and intra-faction. Same with the Elder Scrolls series. And what Red Impact said. The Mass Effect series does what great sci-fi is supposed to do: raise questions and challenge the status quo of society and culture. Although it's a space opera, the original Star Trek did an absolutely wonderful job of this. And the Mass Effect lore does a really good job of this, too. Too often, sci-fi likes to use the idea of Human Exceptionalism as a thematic motivator. Mass Effect didn't entirely get rid of the idea (as we see during the course of the games with Shepard), but it does subvert it. Especially with the Citadel Council having been in existence for thousands of years. That'd be like in Star Trek if the humans discovered warp drive and stumbled onto a very stable and already centuries old United Federation of Planets. And then there's the Reapers, who are straight out of Lovecraft.
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