Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2012 13:12:43 GMT -5
I've said this repeatedly in this thread: it's not about AW. It could've been any other young person on WWE's roster getting fired for trying to push the envelope and make something of themselves, and I think most people here (myself being one of them) would make the exact same arguments. And this is where the Daniel Bryan example comes in, he was fired for pushing the envelope by choking Chimmel out with his tie and fired for it, did he go on Twitter and bitch? No, he took indy bookings until the heat died down and then came back. And again: it's not about AW. Stop thinking that this has anything to do with AW's behavior other than him trying the core actions that got him fired in the first place. I'm not defending what he said on twitter. That's completely beside the point and bringing that up is a straw-man in comparison to my argument. That never had anything to do with what I said.
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Legion
Fry's dog Seymour
Amy Pond's #1 fan
Hail Hydra!
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Post by Legion on Aug 12, 2012 13:23:36 GMT -5
There's pushing the envelope, and there's being a complete f***ing idiot. AW falls into the latter. There's ways to 'make something of yourself' without saying stupid s*** repeatedly. Like what? What can one possibly do out of what WWE strictly and arbitrarily shoehorns wrestlers into doing where they can shine on their own worth? There have been so many promising stars with huge upsides that WWE squandered by cutting them off when they were at their peak momentum, and people with ideas that didn't fit WWE's exact build who had their ideas ignored or trashed. So many people pitch so much, but it's all thrown away and then nothing is done with the people who just gave these ideas. Abraham Washington can be an idiot, or he can be the biggest idiot to walk the planet, but in the end he's an example of WWE crushing people who attempt to get themselves over on their own merit, no matter how little one thinks that their merit is actually worth, or how appropriate or inappropriate what they say or do happens to be. Then you do not go to work for WWE. If you cannot play by the rules of your employer, you do not go and work for them. As say, a teacher, you have rules about what you can and can't say. If you say something you aren't allowed to you will get a warning, say more things you aren't allowed to and boom, you lose your job. It would be the same in any organisation. Why is 'wanting to make something of yourself' an excuse to be a dick? Why does the fact he, or had it been anyone else, they, tried to push the envelope in a situation where he was told, by his employer, not to some how mean he is being crushed? All jobs come with a target, with a person specification, with a role outline. He ignored that and was punished. You cannot go in to any job and just decide that you can do or say whatever you want, and nostalgia over the past and a desire to see young people succeed doesnt negate that. You argue that WWE crushes people, and perhaps it does, but in this instance all they crushed was a big mouth with an ego who said things he was categorically told not to. That is not even remotely, at all, in any way close to crushing a performer with in ring talent or a performer trying their hardest but playing by the rules, which we have seen before. As such, while I do think your argument has merit, I do not think it is at all applicable in this situation
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Cronant
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 17,556
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Post by Cronant on Aug 12, 2012 13:29:58 GMT -5
There's pushing the envelope, and there's being a complete f***ing idiot. AW falls into the latter. There's ways to 'make something of yourself' without saying stupid s*** repeatedly. Like what? What can one possibly do out of what WWE strictly and arbitrarily shoehorns wrestlers into doing where they can shine on their own worth? There have been so many promising stars with huge upsides that WWE squandered by cutting them off when they were at their peak momentum, and people with ideas that didn't fit WWE's exact build who had their ideas ignored or trashed. So many people pitch so much, but it's all thrown away and then nothing is done with the people who just gave these ideas. Abraham Washington can be an idiot, or he can be the biggest idiot to walk the planet, but in the end he's an example of WWE crushing people who attempt to get themselves over on their own merit, no matter how little one thinks that their merit is actually worth, or how appropriate or inappropriate what they say or do happens to be. If saying a rape joke, or other stupid things is his 'attempt to get over on your own merit' then he SHOULD be fired. There's no place for it. He could have been an effective, over manager WITHOUT that. They gave him a mic so he could do that. He failed, and he didn't seem interested in adapting his work to be appropriate but unique.
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Post by Been burned too many times on Aug 12, 2012 13:38:30 GMT -5
I've said this repeatedly in this thread: it's not about AW. It could've been any other young person on WWE's roster getting fired for trying to push the envelope and make something of themselves, and I think most people here (myself being one of them) would make the exact same arguments. And this is where the Daniel Bryan example comes in, he was fired for pushing the envelope by choking Chimmel out with his tie and fired for it, did he go on Twitter and bitch? No, he took indy bookings until the heat died down and then came back. They probably told Daniel Bryan that they'd rehire him after the 'heat died down' that's why he pretty much kept quiet about the whole thing.
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vivix
ALF
Strike Hard Strike Fast
Posts: 1,077
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Post by vivix on Aug 12, 2012 13:50:53 GMT -5
And this is where the Daniel Bryan example comes in, he was fired for pushing the envelope by choking Chimmel out with his tie and fired for it, did he go on Twitter and bitch? No, he took indy bookings until the heat died down and then came back. They probably told Daniel Bryan that they'd rehire him after the 'heat died down' that's why he pretty much kept quiet about the whole thing. Bryan has said they told him they'd bring him back once it cooled. Also wasn't it Justin Roberts that they choked?
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Post by CM Parish on Aug 12, 2012 13:58:19 GMT -5
I don't even think the reference is that dated to be honest. It's like people making a Tyson or an OJ reference.
Or it's like people referencing things that aren't rape or murder 20 years late, like Ali or other famous quotes in history. If it was mainstream enough at the time then the reference will be timeless.
Whether it was dated or not isn't the issue though, clearly.
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Bo Rida
Fry's dog Seymour
Pulled one over on everyone. Got away with it, this time.
Posts: 23,662
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Post by Bo Rida on Aug 12, 2012 14:04:59 GMT -5
The stupid thing is that it seemed like WWE were giving certain people a little more freedom on the mic, a recent report even said that Vince realised they went a little too far towards G and were pushing the boundaries of PG again. While the likes of Punk stayed within boundaries AW couldn't.
Now people will be stopped from improvising and without that it's harder for them to break the mould and become the new Rock or Austin. WWE may even guard twitter activities a little more closely.
So rather than being the anti-establishment hero it looks like AW just made things worse for fans and wrestlers alike.
Also he's not the only person to have been told to tone it down even in times when the rating was higher, eg Ric Flair was told not to overstep the mark and on the whole he stuck to it (after the bleeding virgins promo), he even thanked the legal team in is HoF speech.
Oh and I haven't read the whole thread so sorry if somebody else has already said that.
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Post by 01010010 01101001 01100011 on Aug 12, 2012 14:07:53 GMT -5
The one thing I want from this more than anything is the death of the whole mic'ing up a manager/tag team partner thing WWE has tried to get over for the last 3 years or so. It doesn't work and has sucked every time they tried it.
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Post by CM Parish on Aug 12, 2012 14:37:33 GMT -5
The one thing I want from this more than anything is the death of the whole mic'ing up a manager/tag team partner thing WWE has tried to get over for the last 3 years or so. It doesn't work and has sucked every time they tried it. Who else did they try it with? Although, it worked with Jimmy Hart.
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Post by 01010010 01101001 01100011 on Aug 12, 2012 14:41:29 GMT -5
The one thing I want from this more than anything is the death of the whole mic'ing up a manager/tag team partner thing WWE has tried to get over for the last 3 years or so. It doesn't work and has sucked every time they tried it. Who else did they try it with? Although, it worked with Jimmy Hart. All the pros on NXT 2, 3 and 4 as well as LayCool.
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The OP
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
changed his name
Posts: 15,785
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Post by The OP on Aug 12, 2012 14:46:15 GMT -5
That Ric Guy, do you mean that the managers wear mics now, or if not do you know how they do it?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2012 14:51:32 GMT -5
Who else did they try it with? Although, it worked with Jimmy Hart. All the pros on NXT 2, 3 and 4 as well as LayCool. I don't like Laycool, but to be fair to them, when they did the gimmick in their match with the Bellas on Raw, their mics were only turned on for the TV audience like the announcers' mics are. The fans in the arena couldn't hear them.
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Post by 01010010 01101001 01100011 on Aug 12, 2012 14:52:31 GMT -5
That Ric Guy, do you mean that the managers wear mics now, or if not do you know how they do it? AW and LayCool had headset mics they used. I don't know if the pros on NXT had those or not but they were on mics when their rookies would wrestle.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2012 14:53:00 GMT -5
And this is where the Daniel Bryan example comes in, he was fired for pushing the envelope by choking Chimmel out with his tie and fired for it, did he go on Twitter and bitch? No, he took indy bookings until the heat died down and then came back. And again: it's not about AW. Stop thinking that this has anything to do with AW's behavior other than him trying the core actions that got him fired in the first place. I'm not defending what he said on twitter. That's completely beside the point and bringing that up is a straw-man in comparison to my argument. That never had anything to do with what I said. Okay, you're correct about that, but in the WWE as in any company in any field you've got to know that there is a sliding scale for what is allowed. For instance the consequences will not be the same for say, Emmitt Smith than they would be for the 3rd string fullback, if they were to commit the same offense. The farther down the totem pole you are the more you have to watch what you say and do, that's what a lot of people don't seem to understand. AW is bitching about being fired for what amounts to a lame joke, would Punk be fired for the same joke? Of course not. Would Tyler Reks or JTG or whoever be fired for it? I'm sure. There's being edgy and getting yourself over and then there's not using your brain in regards to what will get yourself over. AW falls into the latter category. I'd be willing to bet that the E gives all talent a code of conduct that lays out for them how far they can go when talking on air/what they can say and do/what is unacceptable, and AW obviously went beyond what they thought of as acceptable.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2012 15:00:47 GMT -5
Like what? What can one possibly do out of what WWE strictly and arbitrarily shoehorns wrestlers into doing where they can shine on their own worth? There have been so many promising stars with huge upsides that WWE squandered by cutting them off when they were at their peak momentum, and people with ideas that didn't fit WWE's exact build who had their ideas ignored or trashed. So many people pitch so much, but it's all thrown away and then nothing is done with the people who just gave these ideas. Abraham Washington can be an idiot, or he can be the biggest idiot to walk the planet, but in the end he's an example of WWE crushing people who attempt to get themselves over on their own merit, no matter how little one thinks that their merit is actually worth, or how appropriate or inappropriate what they say or do happens to be. If saying a rape joke, or other stupid things is his 'attempt to get over on your own merit' then he SHOULD be fired. There's no place for it. He could have been an effective, over manager WITHOUT that. They gave him a mic so he could do that. He failed, and he didn't seem interested in adapting his work to be appropriate but unique. No kidding, but that's not even what I'm arguing.
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Post by The Baltimore Staircase on Aug 12, 2012 15:18:01 GMT -5
Sorry if this is in the 27 pages but...
Why did they allow him to work a Smackdown and Raw TV before letting him go?
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
Better have my money when I come-a collect!
Posts: 28,016
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Post by chazraps on Aug 12, 2012 15:18:32 GMT -5
I don't even think the reference is that dated to be honest. It's like people making a Tyson or an OJ reference. Or it's like people referencing things that aren't rape or murder 20 years late, like Ali or other famous quotes in history. If it was mainstream enough at the time then the reference will be timeless. Whether it was dated or not isn't the issue though, clearly. For the sake of this side conversation, it's far more dated than your examples because it only clouded Kobe for a small window of time. By late 2005, he had already scored the most points for an individual player in a game and the alleged rape was proven false. He's done an absurd amount since then, and everyone has moved on. It's dated. It's like making a Sean Penn joke about Madonna. As for OJ and Tyson, the OJ trial lasted years and it wound up defining his legacy. Plus, he kept resurfacing in pop culture (the 'If I Did It' book, the robbery) to the point where the jokes always had some relevancy. Not sure what you're referring to with Tyson (he's done so much, it could be A LOT of things) but I can't recall hearing a Tyson rape joke since he bit Holyfield's ear off. Likewise, I can't recall hearing a joke about Tyson biting Holyfield's ear off since he told Lennox Lewis he was going to eat his children. Likewise, I can't recall hearing a joke about Tyson eating Lennox Lewis' children since his bankruptcy. I haven't heard a joke about that since he got KOed by Williams. And so on. And so on. Not really comparable.
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Post by 01010010 01101001 01100011 on Aug 12, 2012 15:20:19 GMT -5
Sorry if this is in the 27 pages but... Why did they allow him to work a Smackdown and Raw TV before letting him go? I think the story is they didn't decide to release him until late Thurs., early Fri. after he stuck his foot in his month again on Twitter. By then it was too late to take him out of Smackdown.
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The OP
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
changed his name
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Post by The OP on Aug 12, 2012 15:32:18 GMT -5
That Ric Guy, do you mean that the managers wear mics now, or if not do you know how they do it? AW and LayCool had headset mics they used. I don't know if the pros on NXT had those or not but they were on mics when their rookies would wrestle. Oh, that does kinda suck. At least under the wrong circumstances. That must be why you can hear people yelling from ringside so clearly at times now, which can be hard on the ears if it's Kelly Kelly screeching "come on AJ" over and over again, to use one example.
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SAJ Forth
Wade Wilson
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Post by SAJ Forth on Aug 12, 2012 15:53:46 GMT -5
Moral of the story: Even guys that made women bark like dogs in their underwear have standards.
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