|
Post by "Cane Dewey" Johnson on Jul 12, 2012 23:00:42 GMT -5
*looks at page 3 of "Freeh Report assigns blame to Joe Paterno*
Jokes about sexual abuse are not tolerated. Makes sense, right? We shouldn't joke about such things.
*reads 6 pages in this thread about rape jokes being okay*
Oh.
|
|
Massive G
Hank Scorpio
yo hago esto
Posts: 6,224
|
Post by Massive G on Jul 12, 2012 23:02:22 GMT -5
*looks at page 3 of "Freeh Report assigns blame to Joe Paterno* Jokes about sexual abuse are not tolerated. Makes sense, right? We shouldn't joke about such things. *reads 6 pages in this thread about rape jokes being okay* Oh. take a while, see if you can tell the difference.
|
|
|
Post by Andrew is Good on Jul 12, 2012 23:02:25 GMT -5
But I don't think you're getting why she wasn't pleased and the wider context. Entertainment is subjective, if it wasn't, the Japanese porn industry would be out of business. Besides, if someone sucks, should people not boo them?
Take wrestling. If two guys are in the ring putting on a shitty match and the crowd says you can't wrestle, is the appropriate response to say, I hope somebody slits your throat? And what would be the context. Some wrestlers might go, oh you think this sucks, and then put on an extremely long rest hold, that would be a decent and even funny response.
At concerts, some guy on stage says or does something stupid, or is stinking up the joint, are people just supposed to sit there and say, oh well, I'm supposed to be entertained by this, so I might as well go be entertained. No. If a performer sucks, outright sucks, they shouldn't have to be spared being told they suck. And again, the wider context of rape jokes and acceptance of rape in society, blaming rape victims, etc, people have good reason to be up in arms about rape as a subject.
|
|
|
Post by "Cane Dewey" Johnson on Jul 12, 2012 23:04:40 GMT -5
*looks at page 3 of "Freeh Report assigns blame to Joe Paterno* Jokes about sexual abuse are not tolerated. Makes sense, right? We shouldn't joke about such things. *reads 6 pages in this thread about rape jokes being okay* Oh. take a while, see if you can tell the difference. Sexual abuse is a real problem. Rape is a real problem. Okay, they seem similar so far. Joking about sexual abuse is not condoned. Joking about rape is condoned. You're right, they are different. Thanks.
|
|
Jimmy
Grimlock
Posts: 13,317
|
Post by Jimmy on Jul 12, 2012 23:05:36 GMT -5
But I don't think you're getting why she wasn't pleased and the wider context. Entertainment is subjective, if it wasn't, the Japanese porn industry would be out of business. Besides, if someone sucks, should people not boo them? Take wrestling. If two guys are in the ring putting on a s***ty match and the crowd says you can't wrestle, is the appropriate response to say, I hope somebody slits your throat? And what would be the context. Some wrestlers might go, oh you think this sucks, and then put on an extremely long rest hold, that would be a decent and even funny response. At concerts, some guy on stage says or does something stupid, or is stinking up the joint, are people just supposed to sit there and say, oh well, I'm supposed to be entertained by this, so I might as well go be entertained. No. If a performer sucks, outright sucks, they shouldn't have to be spared being told they suck. And again, the wider context of rape jokes and acceptance of rape in society, blaming rape victims, etc, people have good reason to be up in arms about rape as a subject.
|
|
|
Post by Mayonnaise on Jul 12, 2012 23:08:56 GMT -5
But I don't think you're getting why she wasn't pleased and the wider context. Entertainment is subjective, if it wasn't, the Japanese porn industry would be out of business. Besides, if someone sucks, should people not boo them? Take wrestling. If two guys are in the ring putting on a s***ty match and the crowd says you can't wrestle, is the appropriate response to say, I hope somebody slits your throat? And what would be the context. Some wrestlers might go, oh you think this sucks, and then put on an extremely long rest hold, that would be a decent and even funny response. At concerts, some guy on stage says or does something stupid, or is stinking up the joint, are people just supposed to sit there and say, oh well, I'm supposed to be entertained by this, so I might as well go be entertained. No. If a performer sucks, outright sucks, they shouldn't have to be spared being told they suck. And again, the wider context of rape jokes and acceptance of rape in society, blaming rape victims, etc, people have good reason to be up in arms about rape as a subject. You do it when it appropriate. A comedy club where you are watching an act is not the place to boo people because you dislike something just like you don't boo in a movie theater or at a play. Walk out yeah but you do not interrupt the show. This isn't wrestling, a music concert or sports contest where their is a lot of audience participation and booing someone would be appropriate. It's courtesy to the people around who know what they are watching, are enjoying it and don't want someone without the common sense to know what they are going to see trying to make themselves apart of the show.
|
|
Massive G
Hank Scorpio
yo hago esto
Posts: 6,224
|
Post by Massive G on Jul 12, 2012 23:10:16 GMT -5
take a while, see if you can tell the difference. Sexual abuse is a real problem. Rape is a real problem. Okay, they seem similar so far. Joking about sexual abuse is not condoned. Joking about rape is condoned. You're right, they are different. Thanks. You're making a direct comparison to a wide ranging institutional coverup of a pedophile over the course of more than a decade to a guy on stage in a comedy club saying things into a microphone to people who paid to be there, presumably to hear him say things. I can't honestly imagine how someone's brain would even think to connect those two dots.
|
|
|
Post by "Cane Dewey" Johnson on Jul 12, 2012 23:13:54 GMT -5
Sexual abuse is a real problem. Rape is a real problem. Okay, they seem similar so far. Joking about sexual abuse is not condoned. Joking about rape is condoned. You're right, they are different. Thanks. You're making a direct comparison to a wide ranging institutional coverup of a pedophile over the course of more than a decade to a guy on stage in a comedy club saying things into a microphone to people who paid to be there, presumably to hear him say things. I can't honestly imagine how someone's brain would even think to connect those two dots. Hey, I struggle to see how someone can think making horrible jokes about rape is okay (in this thread) and sexual abuse (in the other thread), so I guess we're on the same page here in our incredulity.
|
|
Toxik916
Hank Scorpio
Sacramento Proud
Posts: 6,207
|
Post by Toxik916 on Jul 12, 2012 23:15:01 GMT -5
I highly recommend to anyone that thinks this lady was right to watch a documentary called Heckler. It's on Netflix streaming right now. This documentary will help illustrate why someone in the audience should never disrupt a comedian during a set.
|
|
|
Post by Andrew is Good on Jul 12, 2012 23:16:28 GMT -5
But I don't think you're getting why she wasn't pleased and the wider context. Entertainment is subjective, if it wasn't, the Japanese porn industry would be out of business. Besides, if someone sucks, should people not boo them? Take wrestling. If two guys are in the ring putting on a s***ty match and the crowd says you can't wrestle, is the appropriate response to say, I hope somebody slits your throat? And what would be the context. Some wrestlers might go, oh you think this sucks, and then put on an extremely long rest hold, that would be a decent and even funny response. At concerts, some guy on stage says or does something stupid, or is stinking up the joint, are people just supposed to sit there and say, oh well, I'm supposed to be entertained by this, so I might as well go be entertained. No. If a performer sucks, outright sucks, they shouldn't have to be spared being told they suck. And again, the wider context of rape jokes and acceptance of rape in society, blaming rape victims, etc, people have good reason to be up in arms about rape as a subject. You do it when it appropriate. A comedy club where you are watching an act is not the place to boo people because you dislike something just like you don't boo in a movie theater or at a play. Walk out yeah but you do not interrupt the show. This isn't wrestling, a music concert or sports contest where their is a lot of audience participation and booing someone would be appropriate. It's courtesy to the people around who know what they are watching, are enjoying it and don't want someone without the common sense to know what they are going to see trying to make themselves apart of the show. I don't think that person was trying to make themselves apart of the show, it was something they felt strongly about, you know, rape. Like, there are women who go around and are afraid that they might get raped for pretty much existing, and a lot of the times, that can happen. You look at travel information and when I check out the Canadian travel advisory website, about how women have to be extra cautious about kidnappings and rape. The issue is a societal one, and yeah, this was something near and dear to her heart, because as a woman, she has a chance of getting raped. 1 in 4 women will get raped in their lifetime. And in society, there's a lot of victim blaming when it comes to rape. So, because of that, she felt strongly and called him on his bullshit. I don't see much of a problem in that, especially if there is a goal of some audience participation in laughter at least, instead of standing there doing nothing. And some comedians do have audience participation anyway.
|
|
Massive G
Hank Scorpio
yo hago esto
Posts: 6,224
|
Post by Massive G on Jul 12, 2012 23:18:21 GMT -5
You're making a direct comparison to a wide ranging institutional coverup of a pedophile over the course of more than a decade to a guy on stage in a comedy club saying things into a microphone to people who paid to be there, presumably to hear him say things. I can't honestly imagine how someone's brain would even think to connect those two dots. Hey, I struggle to see how someone can think making horrible jokes about rape is okay (in this thread) and sexual abuse (in the other thread), so I guess we're on the same page here in our incredulity. you could start with the incredibly easy realization (or so I would have thought, anyway) that one is an actual situation, with an actual sex offender. Daniel Tosh might be a crappy comedian, but I'm fairly certain he's not a rapist. But that's just so far! Maybe he will be some day, and then all this pointless indignation about a dumb joke will totally be worthwhile.
|
|
Toxik916
Hank Scorpio
Sacramento Proud
Posts: 6,207
|
Post by Toxik916 on Jul 12, 2012 23:19:42 GMT -5
You do it when it appropriate. A comedy club where you are watching an act is not the place to boo people because you dislike something just like you don't boo in a movie theater or at a play. Walk out yeah but you do not interrupt the show. This isn't wrestling, a music concert or sports contest where their is a lot of audience participation and booing someone would be appropriate. It's courtesy to the people around who know what they are watching, are enjoying it and don't want someone without the common sense to know what they are going to see trying to make themselves apart of the show. I don't think that person was trying to make themselves apart of the show, it was something they felt strongly about, you know, rape. Like, there are women who go around and are afraid that they might get raped for pretty much existing, and a lot of the times, that can happen. You look at travel information and when I check out the Canadian travel advisory website, about how women have to be extra cautious about kidnappings and rape. The issue is a societal one, and yeah, this was something near and dear to her heart, because as a woman, she has a chance of getting raped. 1 in 4 women will get raped in their lifetime. And in society, there's a lot of victim blaming when it comes to rape. So, because of that, she felt strongly and called him on his bulls***. I don't see much of a problem in that, especially if there is a goal of some audience participation in laughter at least, instead of standing there doing nothing. And some comedians do have audience participation anyway. If you're in the audience at a comedy show your opinion is unwanted. You need to shut the f*** up no matter what offends you.
|
|
|
Post by "I'm Batman..." on Jul 12, 2012 23:21:56 GMT -5
Really? It's Daniel Tosh?
|
|
|
Post by Widow's Peak on Jul 12, 2012 23:22:42 GMT -5
I really debated whether or not to enter into this but I will say that societal acceptance of rape humor perpetuates rape culture, which allows the idea of it to be normalized and not taken as something serious. I think one day rape humor will be regarded in the way that overtly racist humor would be. I seriously doubt that just because a guy hears rape jokes, it's going to cause him to rape someone. Rapist already have the desire, idea, and willingness in their mind. They aren't going to rape somebody because they think "Hey, rape is funny and acceptable now because people tell rape jokes....I'm totally going to start raping people now!" Its not that simple. Its more the idea that these type of jokes contribute to the idea that violence against women as not that big of a deal or that the victims of sexual assault somehow did something to deserve their attack. Granted, to a huge portion of the audience, a joke is just a joke and they know the difference between that and a real life situation, but you could see how it would still strike a nerve. That being said, there is a place for dark humor provided that it is done well. I'll admit myself to laughing at a few jokes that wouldn't exactly be considered feminist. However, when you are being edgy about subject matter, you still can occasionally cross the line and there's a huge difference between shock for humor's sake and shock for shock's sake. Its largely subjective, but you're not necessarily the "PC Police" if you think someone went too far. And Daniel Tosh sucks.
|
|
|
Post by Andrew is Good on Jul 12, 2012 23:24:56 GMT -5
I don't think that person was trying to make themselves apart of the show, it was something they felt strongly about, you know, rape. Like, there are women who go around and are afraid that they might get raped for pretty much existing, and a lot of the times, that can happen. You look at travel information and when I check out the Canadian travel advisory website, about how women have to be extra cautious about kidnappings and rape. The issue is a societal one, and yeah, this was something near and dear to her heart, because as a woman, she has a chance of getting raped. 1 in 4 women will get raped in their lifetime. And in society, there's a lot of victim blaming when it comes to rape. So, because of that, she felt strongly and called him on his bulls***. I don't see much of a problem in that, especially if there is a goal of some audience participation in laughter at least, instead of standing there doing nothing. And some comedians do have audience participation anyway. If you're in the audience at a comedy show your opinion is unwanted. You need to shut the f*** up no matter what offends you. So, what if the whole crowd boos because he's a s***ty comedian. Where is the line with that when it's a bunch of people? And again, going back to the rape context, like, I may've been wrong with the Punk video, and there is probably some cognitive dissonance due to enjoying wrestling heels. Though I also never heard any wrestler say "I'm hope people rape you". Again, killing someone and someone dying is generally thought of as bad, and the people who die didn't deserve it. Where as with rape, that's not always the case. So maybe I may not have that much cognitive dissonance after all, because there's a difference. Though my first example of a wrestler saying I hope someone slits your throat may've been a flawed example. And that's why I guess. Again, this is a strong issue with people, especially if they have been raped, know people who were raped, or because they're a human female, have a 1 and 4 chance of BEING raped. I read something else, please correct me as I have to go to bed soon and I may start responding on my phone tomorrow. But I read he took suggestions from the crowd, which throws the disruption argument straight out the window. Someone suggested rape and that lead to the response. But then again, that could very well be wrong.
|
|
Toxik916
Hank Scorpio
Sacramento Proud
Posts: 6,207
|
Post by Toxik916 on Jul 12, 2012 23:30:35 GMT -5
If you're in the audience at a comedy show your opinion is unwanted. You need to shut the f*** up no matter what offends you. So, what if the whole crowd boos because he's a s***ty comedian. Where is the line with that when it's a bunch of people? And again, going back to the rape context, like, I may've been wrong with the Punk video, and there is probably some cognitive dissonance due to enjoying wrestling heels. Though I also never heard any wrestler say "I'm hope people rape you". Again, killing someone and someone dying is generally thought of as bad, and the people who die didn't deserve it. Where as with rape, that's not always the case. So maybe I may not have that much cognitive dissonance after all, because there's a difference. Though my first example of a wrestler saying I hope someone slits your throat may've been a flawed example. And that's why I guess. Again, this is a strong issue with people, especially if they have been raped, know people who were raped, or because they're a human female, have a 1 and 4 chance of BEING raped. The issue is this woman is trying to portray herself as the victim. Please read her initial blog post then go back a few pages and watch the Jim Norton video defending Tosh then you might understand why this chick was out of line.
|
|
|
Post by Mayonnaise on Jul 12, 2012 23:30:51 GMT -5
You do it when it appropriate. A comedy club where you are watching an act is not the place to boo people because you dislike something just like you don't boo in a movie theater or at a play. Walk out yeah but you do not interrupt the show. This isn't wrestling, a music concert or sports contest where their is a lot of audience participation and booing someone would be appropriate. It's courtesy to the people around who know what they are watching, are enjoying it and don't want someone without the common sense to know what they are going to see trying to make themselves apart of the show. I don't think that person was trying to make themselves apart of the show, it was something they felt strongly about, you know, rape. Like, there are women who go around and are afraid that they might get raped for pretty much existing, and a lot of the times, that can happen. You look at travel information and when I check out the Canadian travel advisory website, about how women have to be extra cautious about kidnappings and rape. The issue is a societal one, and yeah, this was something near and dear to her heart, because as a woman, she has a chance of getting raped. 1 in 4 women will get raped in their lifetime. And in society, there's a lot of victim blaming when it comes to rape. So, because of that, she felt strongly and called him on his bulls***. I don't see much of a problem in that, especially if there is a goal of some audience participation in laughter at least, instead of standing there doing nothing. And some comedians do have audience participation anyway. No, just no. First, Tosh does not have audience participation and even if he did, you don't get involved until that point. Second, you do not go to a comedy club and interrupt the act without becoming a part of the show whether you intend to or not. She is the one in the wrong, she is making this about her. If she wants to complain you go to the management and raise hell, you stupid protest up online and raise awareness of the issue, you do not make yourself a part of the show and make it about you. What she did is the equivalent of someone jumping the rail at a wrestling show and Tosh was just the wrestler beating down the idiot. At some point people have to take responsibility for their own actions and not blame people for pushing them too far. We all have things we feel passionately about but that does not give us the right to act like jackasses and ruin things for others. Pawn things off a societal problem and something that needs to stop and be addressed is taking a simple issue of some woman acting like an ass and making it much bigger than it should be. If this woman went out and sight unseen went to an ICP show and heard their music would she have the right to stop their show and complain about things? No. If she went to a movie and their was a rape scene would she have the right to stand up in the theater and demand they stop the movie? No. At some point you have to learn to shut up and realize that the way you feel is not the way every single person on Earth feels and as long as they are not hurting anyone or breaking the law, it's not your place to stand up and lecture them. Take that anger and use it in ways that are constructive and not just to draw attention to yourself.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2012 23:38:27 GMT -5
I don't think that person was trying to make themselves apart of the show, it was something they felt strongly about, you know, rape. Like, there are women who go around and are afraid that they might get raped for pretty much existing, and a lot of the times, that can happen. You look at travel information and when I check out the Canadian travel advisory website, about how women have to be extra cautious about kidnappings and rape. The issue is a societal one, and yeah, this was something near and dear to her heart, because as a woman, she has a chance of getting raped. 1 in 4 women will get raped in their lifetime. And in society, there's a lot of victim blaming when it comes to rape. So, because of that, she felt strongly and called him on his bulls***. I don't see much of a problem in that, especially if there is a goal of some audience participation in laughter at least, instead of standing there doing nothing. And some comedians do have audience participation anyway. I really doubt she started the exchange thinking "we're gonna riff and put on a great show for everyone". I mean really, what's the end-game to behavior like that? And what precedent does it set if a comedian balks every time someone is offended and let's them dictate what the comedian says? There are already times where it feels like we're headed in a direction where standup comedy just won't be able to exist with the way we language police everyone for the slightest miscue. I'd say it's admirable that she's willing to stand up and speak her mind but it's almost insulting that I would find myself in a position where someone thinks I don't understand that rape is ultimately a bad thing. She wasn't the only person there who understands rape terrible. Tosh isn't reading the news laughing about Jerry Sandusky's molestations. I can appreciate the fact that it's beyond her sensibilities to handle subject matter such as that but it's not like this is a new thing, George Carlin, Don Rickles, Richard Pryor were doing this long before Tosh. Stand-up Comedy has long been established as dangerous terrain for the easily offended. Louis CK is one of the most critically accepted comedians of all time. He talks about how soon after 9/11 he masturbated. He talks about how it should be okay to say the word faggot because he doesn't say it with hatred towards gay people, he talks about opening a store called shit ass pet f***ers where it's customary for an employee to rape someone's dog. This is heinous stuff but it's hilarious. There are a lot of taboos that are just natural to come up in comedy. I can appreciate that this woman feels strongly about rape, believe me I'm not PRO rape, Daniel Tosh isn't PRO rape, no one here I would imagine reads the news and has a belly laugh over terrible stuff like that but in the context of comedy it's the outrageousness of it that gets the laugh.
|
|
|
Post by Andrew is Good on Jul 12, 2012 23:39:30 GMT -5
So, what if the whole crowd boos because he's a s***ty comedian. Where is the line with that when it's a bunch of people? And again, going back to the rape context, like, I may've been wrong with the Punk video, and there is probably some cognitive dissonance due to enjoying wrestling heels. Though I also never heard any wrestler say "I'm hope people rape you". Again, killing someone and someone dying is generally thought of as bad, and the people who die didn't deserve it. Where as with rape, that's not always the case. So maybe I may not have that much cognitive dissonance after all, because there's a difference. Though my first example of a wrestler saying I hope someone slits your throat may've been a flawed example. And that's why I guess. Again, this is a strong issue with people, especially if they have been raped, know people who were raped, or because they're a human female, have a 1 and 4 chance of BEING raped. The issue is this woman is trying to portray herself as the victim. Please read her initial blog post then go back a few pages and watch the Jim Norton video defending Tosh then you might understand why this chick was out of line. Please explain the jist of the 27 minute video, I like to get stuff precise and not have to listen to 27 minutes of stuff like that. I guess like, I'm trying to convey that people have an almost visceral reaction (I'm taking her words there) to that, and there seems to be no sympathy to that. Yeah, women fear getting raped, but f*** that, she interrupted a comedy show, f*** her and her visceral reactions. Again, maybe it wasn't appropriate, but when someone has a reaction like that (and again, 1 and 4 chance of a woman getting raped), it's hard for me to vilify that person. Oh, she's looking for attention, she wants to be part of the show, she wants to play the victim. I feel that this is bulls***. I'm sorry you may not understand that with the fact that you don't have a vagina and you probably won't' get raped in your lifetime, and don't have the fear of getting raped in your life, but yeah, maybe it wasn't appropriate, let's say people should never do it, and that's rule number 1 of every comedy show and shall never be broken. Still, if she had that much of a reaction, and if I was her, knowing about how rape is accepted a lot of the times and people victim blame, maybe I would have responded like that too. We all have things we feel strongly about, whether it's a political issue, religious issue, whatever. But, is someone going to rape you? Is there a 1 and 4 chance that you'll have to deal with it in your life? And that's the main issue for me, people are bitching at her, how dare she break the comedy code, or whatever the f***. This isn't a political issue, this is a deeply personal issue in which, she could likely be a victim of rape in her lifetime.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2012 23:41:44 GMT -5
If you're in the audience at a comedy show your opinion is unwanted. You need to shut the f*** up no matter what offends you. So, what if the whole crowd boos because he's a s***ty comedian. He's no shitty comedian but Bill Burr knows what to do if the whole crowd boos.
|
|