The OP
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Post by The OP on Jul 11, 2012 10:39:24 GMT -5
The Burton Batman films were both great and successful, all these problems that people have with them are total revisionism. Especially how all these people apparently didn't like Nicholson's portrayal of the Joker even though that was the most popular aspect of the movie at the time and Nicholson was even given top billing over Keaton.
I didn't dislike the Nolan films, but to me they were just the Burton films with more violence and less humor. There were even scenes in TDK that to me seemed lifted directly from the Burton films. To give an example, the scene where Batman or somebody is driving toward Joker in the armored truck and he's like "come on, come and get me" or something, it reminded me so much of the scene in '89 Batman where he's flying toward him in the Bat Wing and Joker pulls out the giant revolver. Everyone told me that Heath Ledger did this perfect, iconic job playing the Joker, but I found it to be basically a more violent, less comedic version of Nicholson's Joker. And I don't know in which universe Ledger was a better actor than Nicholson, especially at playing a demented villain, but I don't live there.
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TheDieselTrain
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Post by TheDieselTrain on Jul 11, 2012 10:45:53 GMT -5
I'm a fan of Burton and Nolans but its annoying when the Nolanites bash '89 and Returns because Batman kills. Umm............. Batman pushed Harvey Dent off a frea kin ledge killing him in TDK!!!!!!!! Except, you know, that was a major plot point. Joker is determined to make Batman break him no-kills rule and he eventually does though not quite in the way he was expecting. It's entirely organic to the screenplay. On the other hand Tim Burton has Batman machine gunning Joker's thugs and smiling as he straps bombs to clowns for reasons that make absolutely no sense to the character beyond trying to make him a typical macho action hero. But to be fair I can't defend "I won't kill you but I don't have to save you." Competely out of character for the Batman they've established to that point compounded by the fact that in a similar situation in the next movie he actually does choose to save the Joker, who is arguably far worse thn Ra's. I dunno, maybe Dark Knight Rises will shed some light on this. But I doubt it. Thats one thing though I never see mentioned. It's never revealed that Joker knows that Batman has a no kill rule so how can he make him break his rule if he doesn't even know what it is. Batman doesnt let it slip that thats his rule. For all The Joker knows Bats one rule is that he never comes out during the day. Its Gotham City its possible.
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Post by BoilerRoomBrawler on Jul 11, 2012 10:48:10 GMT -5
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Post by BoilerRoomBrawler on Jul 11, 2012 10:54:16 GMT -5
Except, you know, that was a major plot point. Joker is determined to make Batman break him no-kills rule and he eventually does though not quite in the way he was expecting. It's entirely organic to the screenplay. On the other hand Tim Burton has Batman machine gunning Joker's thugs and smiling as he straps bombs to clowns for reasons that make absolutely no sense to the character beyond trying to make him a typical macho action hero. But to be fair I can't defend "I won't kill you but I don't have to save you." Competely out of character for the Batman they've established to that point compounded by the fact that in a similar situation in the next movie he actually does choose to save the Joker, who is arguably far worse thn Ra's. I dunno, maybe Dark Knight Rises will shed some light on this. But I doubt it. Thats one thing though I never see mentioned. It's never revealed that Joker knows that Batman has a no kill rule so how can he make him break his rule if he doesn't even know what it is. Batman doesnt let it slip that thats his rule. For all The Joker knows Bats one rule is that he never comes out during the day. Its Gotham City its possible. Pattern analysis. Bear in mind that Gotham's general crime scene also figured out that Batman doesn't kill soon enough. That forms part of the conflict of TDK - crime is adapting to Batman's existence.
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Post by Perpetual Nirvana on Jul 11, 2012 11:04:01 GMT -5
Thats one thing though I never see mentioned. It's never revealed that Joker knows that Batman has a no kill rule so how can he make him break his rule if he doesn't even know what it is. Batman doesnt let it slip that thats his rule. For all The Joker knows Bats one rule is that he never comes out during the day. Its Gotham City its possible. Pattern analysis. Bear in mind that Gotham's general crime scene also figured out that Batman doesn't kill soon enough. That forms part of the conflict of TDK - crime is adapting to Batman's existence. Yep. Same reason Scarecrow figures out the Batman who jumps his deal is a fake because he welded a gun.
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Post by Perpetual Nirvana on Jul 11, 2012 11:11:31 GMT -5
The Burton Batman films were both great and successful, all these problems that people have with them are total revisionism. Especially how all these people apparently didn't like Nicholson's portrayal of the Joker even though that was the most popular aspect of the movie at the time and Nicholson was even given top billing over Keaton. Well for me it's not revisionism, it's the fact that I'm not twelve anymore. Jack Nicholson is a good actor. He's can play a great villain. Nobody is denying this. he's just not a very good Joker. I mean let me ask you this. What is the difference between the Joker and Jack Napier? As far as I can tell the Joker laughs a bit more. That's about it. I find that line of reasoning rather strange. I mean I'd consider Tommy Lee Jones to be a better actor than Aaron Eckhart. Does that mean his Two-Face is better?
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dav
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Post by dav on Jul 11, 2012 11:25:49 GMT -5
Thats one thing though I never see mentioned. It's never revealed that Joker knows that Batman has a no kill rule so how can he make him break his rule if he doesn't even know what it is. Batman doesnt let it slip that thats his rule. For all The Joker knows Bats one rule is that he never comes out during the day. Its Gotham City its possible. Pattern analysis. Bear in mind that Gotham's general crime scene also figured out that Batman doesn't kill soon enough. That forms part of the conflict of TDK - crime is adapting to Batman's existence. Plus Joker might have clued in when Batman swerved to avoid killing him. It's about then he fully realised that Batman doesn't kill.
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Post by Hit Girl on Jul 11, 2012 11:26:08 GMT -5
Jack Nicholson was the best Joker. If anything it was a casting blessing to have an actor so perfectly suited to play that role simply by imbuing the character with so much of his own personality.
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Post by wildojinx on Jul 11, 2012 11:37:14 GMT -5
Do i need to quote Bat-Mite for you people again? "Batman's rich history allows him to be interpreted in a multitude of ways. To be sure, this is a lighter interpretation, but its no less valid and true to the character's roots as the tortured avenger crying out for mommy and daddy". Granted, Batman 89 is NOT a lighter incarnation, but the point still stands.
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Post by Perpetual Nirvana on Jul 11, 2012 11:42:53 GMT -5
That doesn't solve the fact that the screenplay has gapping holes in it and massive failures in logic but fair enough.
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TheDieselTrain
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Post by TheDieselTrain on Jul 11, 2012 11:44:49 GMT -5
Pattern analysis. Bear in mind that Gotham's general crime scene also figured out that Batman doesn't kill soon enough. That forms part of the conflict of TDK - crime is adapting to Batman's existence. Yep. Same reason Scarecrow figures out the Batman who jumps his deal is a fake because he welded a gun. I'd say that the fact that there were more than one batman gave that away
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Post by Perpetual Nirvana on Jul 11, 2012 11:48:13 GMT -5
Yep. Same reason Scarecrow figures out the Batman who jumps his deal is a fake because he welded a gun. I'd say that the fact that there were more than one batman gave that away I'll have to watch again but I could have sworn Crane says "That's not him" before the second Batman appears.
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Arrow
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Post by Arrow on Jul 11, 2012 12:02:46 GMT -5
I'd say that the fact that there were more than one batman gave that away I'll have to watch again but I could have sworn Crane says "That's not him" before the second Batman appears. Yeah, he says that right after the fake Batman opens fire on everybody. It's pretty clear that the fact that "Batman" was using a gun was what made Scarecrow realize he wasn't the real one.
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Post by Perpetual Nirvana on Jul 11, 2012 12:03:47 GMT -5
The Burton Batman films were both great and successful, all these problems that people have with them are total revisionism. Especially how all these people apparently didn't like Nicholson's portrayal of the Joker even though that was the most popular aspect of the movie at the time and Nicholson was even given top billing over Keaton. I completely agree with this. I think people who look at them now and say, "well I liked them when I was a kid, but I now that I'm an adult, I can't see how I could enjoy such a movie" forget that adults who watched the movies at the time they were released actually did enjoy them. I think the big issue with people thinking the original films aren't good now is that they've seen a similar product that they enjoyed more. Even though you've found a version that you like better, this does not mean that the previous version has to lose its merits, or that the versions need to be compared so that an ultimate winner can be named. And again, now that I'm older I notice holes and gaps in logic that I didn't notice as a kid because I didn't care. And to be honest the average moviegoer doesn't notice these things either as long as they get a fun ride. Batman 89 is fun but as a Batman movie it fails on almost every level. That's not revisionism, these are flaws that were always there. These adults you speak were likely not comic book fans in the first place so wouldn't have noticed or cared. Oh and every Batman movie has made a profit. So saying that "people went see it" as a measure of quality is redundant considering that, based purely on box office numbers, people went to see Batman Forever and Batman and Robin as well.
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BHB
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Post by BHB on Jul 11, 2012 12:33:15 GMT -5
I liked it when I was younger but find it pretty much unwatchable now.
It's just not a very good film, let alone being a very odd representation of Batman.
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kidglov3s
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Post by kidglov3s on Jul 11, 2012 12:36:59 GMT -5
I can't believe I'm the only one that hates how they make Arliss the protagonist for so much of the movie. He's like the most boring character of all time.
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The Line
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Post by The Line on Jul 11, 2012 12:39:56 GMT -5
Except, you know, that was a major plot point. Joker is determined to make Batman break him no-kills rule and he eventually does though not quite in the way he was expecting. It's entirely organic to the screenplay. On the other hand Tim Burton has Batman machine gunning Joker's thugs and smiling as he straps bombs to clowns for reasons that make absolutely no sense to the character beyond trying to make him a typical macho action hero. But to be fair I can't defend "I won't kill you but I don't have to save you." Competely out of character for the Batman they've established to that point compounded by the fact that in a similar situation in the next movie he actually does choose to save the Joker, who is arguably far worse thn Ra's. I dunno, maybe Dark Knight Rises will shed some light on this. But I doubt it. Thats one thing though I never see mentioned. It's never revealed that Joker knows that Batman has a no kill rule so how can he make him break his rule if he doesn't even know what it is. Batman doesnt let it slip that thats his rule. For all The Joker knows Bats one rule is that he never comes out during the day. Its Gotham City its possible. Doesn't Joker flat out say "Tonight, you're gonna break your one rule". Sounds like he knows.
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Goldenbane
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Post by Goldenbane on Jul 11, 2012 13:07:25 GMT -5
That doesn't solve the fact that the screenplay has gapping holes in it and massive failures in logic but fair enough. Both Batman Begins and The Dark Knight have gapping holes in them and titanic failures in logic, so I don't really see your point, here. I agree with you that the Burton films are not a good interpretation of how Batman is popularly portrayed, but they're pretty decent compared to the original 30's version of the character. Oh and for the record, I'm really confused that people are whining about Arliss...like he was the main character or something. If anything, the movie is more about Vickie Vale and Joker than anyone else.
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erisi236
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Post by erisi236 on Jul 11, 2012 13:15:07 GMT -5
I find it interesting that "Arliss" is in the position of the traditional goof role, but is only very slightly played that way.
He's got a pretty good head on his shoulders, doesn't speak in one liners, does his job competently and beats down some Joker goons.
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Post by Perpetual Nirvana on Jul 11, 2012 16:19:55 GMT -5
Okay, let me put it this way. In the first five minutes of the movie Batman witnesses a mugging that he fails to intervene in and when he does confront the culprits he is immediately shot and falls over. If you don't see what's wrong with that then I dunno what to say.
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