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Post by Djm Doesn't Find You Funny on Jan 17, 2013 16:45:27 GMT -5
Regardless of the reason, I'm just tired of John Cena and everything surrounding him.
I'm tired of his stale character. I'm tired of people complaining about his character never changing, and I'm tired of people that think nothing about him should change at all.
I'm tired of the people that paint the Internet Wrestling Community with one Cena-Hate brush while always invoking the "darlings".
I'm just tired of all things Cena. I don't even hate the guy, but I'd rather he never existed, because I'm so sick of so much discussion over him.
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BigBadZ
Grimlock
The Rumors Are All True
Posts: 13,923
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Post by BigBadZ on Jan 17, 2013 16:54:16 GMT -5
So he can dish it out, but he can't take it. Yeah, moving along....
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Post by Mr. Socko's Brother on Jan 17, 2013 17:12:54 GMT -5
Okay, because I can be impatient sometimes I'm gonna start writing a point-by-point response to the article. Wouldn't be surprised at all if some of my points have been made in posts above which I was too impatient to read, so sorry if I end up repeating what somebody's already said.
Here I go, and apologies for this getting wall-o'-texty.
Now, I can't speak for the whole IWC, but back when Punk was a babyface and he was winning all the time? It had begun to annoy me the same way it annoyed me when Cena would do the same thing.
It annoys me when anybody, in any promotion, goes on a long winning streak and doesn't job clean to anybody. It annoys me that Jeff Hardy is doing it in TNA. It annoys me that Eddie Kingston's doing it in Chikara. I'm not a fan of ROH keeping its world title on a guy and having him win everything for a year-plus either. I didn't like it when it was Davey Richards, and I'm speaking as a guy who liked watching Richards wrestle (up until I heard about him threatening and cheating that promoter, when I finally turned on him like everybody else). I don't like that Kevin Steen's held the title as long as he has without dropping it or--as far as I know--even losing a non-title match, and I'm speaking as a fan of Kevin Steen.
Now that Punk's a heel, I don't mind it so much, because part of being a heel in WWE means that you appear vulnerable. So Punk isn't beating his challengers clean all the time any more, thank god.
I do not have this double standard where I gush if one guy wins match after match clean for a year and where I'd lose my shit over another guy winning match after match clean for a year. I hate that shit no matter who does it, although if the guy winning puts on a good show in the ring I find it a little easier to tolerate.
Moving on...
What?
Look, in wrestling when somebody gets pinned, it is not because he "gave up", unless you're talking about a guy in the figure four lying back and getting his shoulders counted down instead of mustering the energy to sit back up or something.
Wrestlers do not get pinned because they are "giving up", they get pinned because they got KNOCKED THE f*** OUT.
This was not their choice.
A guy who gets beaten by the Undertaker (and I would rant about 'Taker never losing clean too except to, I dunno, Kane in the last five years maybe, if that were the topic) is not thinking to himself "Oh damn, I just got my head bounced off the mat by a Tombstone, and now I have to make a choice between giving up or not giving up. I guess I'll give up and lie here for the three count.
He is not thinking anything at all.
Because he is unconscious.
Understand?
So there is nothing about taking multiple finishers and kicking out that qualifies as "not giving up". That doesn't showcase his determination or heart, any more than kicking out after being shot in the head would showcase determination or heart.
When you do what Cena does, it is called "no-selling". It is called "making the other guy's finisher look weak". It is called "making the other guy himself look weak."
Here's an idea: make another list, and don't count losses that happened because of cheating or, in the case of no DQ matches, because of outside interference.
How many times has Cena lost clean in 2012?
Look, back when I started watching wrestling in 1996, it was right in the middle of the program between HBK and Sid, and on Raw they were talking about how this tower of a man, Sycho Sid, had defeated Shawn Michaels for the world title. I didn't know that Sid had cheated to win it at the time, all I knew was that this monster had beaten Shawn Michaels, and that they were going to have a rematch. And I remember thinking "How the hell is anybody the size of Shawn Michaels going to have a chance of beating somebody the size of Sid? Especially when Sid's already destroyed him once?"
THAT is what makes a good story. Even with what I would learn later about HBK's manipulation of backstage politics and general douchiness, the then-WWF made him look vulnerable. During the time I was watching they made Sid look like a f***ing beast, like a guy who didn't need to cheat in order to beat Shawn again.
This says as much about how new I was to pro wrestling as it does about the WWF's booking at the time, but I honestly believed that Sid would retain. And when I tuned in to Raw after the PPV and was told that HBK managed to beat him? I marked out. It was a feel-good moment for me.
And let's look at the guys who were around to challenge Shawn for that title following his win against Sid. Aside from Sid himself, you had Bret Hart. You had Austin. You had 'Taker. You had Vader. I remember thinking that any one of those guys might be able to beat Michaels without shenanigans. (If he hadn't "lost his smile" and walked away, of course.)
Who in the WWE is there that you can imagine beating Cena clean? Punk has never really been able to beat him clean since his rise to main event status. Sheamus probably can't. 2013 Randy Orton can't. ADR can't, since he never could before. Show can't, since he never could before. The best Kane's ever managed against him is a double countout brawl. Lesnar can't in 2013, as we saw last year. Bryan never beat him. Ryback might be able to, I guess. Taker might be able to.
My point is that instead of a large field of credible opponents, guys who a WWE fan looks at and thinks "Yeah, that guy's pretty tough, I can see him winning against Cena," there is almost nobody on the current full-time roster who seems able to hold a candle to Cena. There are only two reasons that Cena is ever not world champion: either because he got screwed over in a match he certainly would have won otherwise, or because he isn't bothering to challenge the champion.
So you have one guy who looks invincible, and a roster full of other guys who look pitiful when they stand next to him. And if any one of those other guys becomes world champion, you just know that any time John Cena wants to challenge them, they are going to end up being embarrassed by him in the ring, whether they escape with the title or not. If you're a fan of those other guys instead of Cena, that's a bitter pill to swallow.
Okay, I'll grant that's true. There is an awful lot we don't know.
But...
Here is what I do know. I know that historically, main eventers get big heads. I know that Hulk Hogan got a big head and didn't want to job clean to anybody if he could help it. I know that Shawn Michaels got a big head and didn't want to job clean to anybody if he could help it. Kevin Nash did. Triple H did.
It is common in the wrestling business, and not unreasonable to assume that if Cena doesn't put somebody over, it's at least partly because he doesn't want to put that guy over.
Oh, and there's also the report of him saying that he didn't want to lose any matches between Survivor Series of 2011 (IIRC) and his 'Mania match with Rocky, because he didn't want to look weak. That supports the theory.
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Post by KobashiChop on Jan 17, 2013 17:18:05 GMT -5
He is the Mary Sue of the WWE. That's why 90% of the time he irritates the shit out of me. And like previously mentioned, he is the posterboy for the WWE's post-Rock "cocky funnyguy babyface".
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Jan 17, 2013 17:20:22 GMT -5
Guys like batista are stronger than Cena. Guys like Punk and Bryan are better wrestlers than Cena. So why is it, besides the fact we know it's scripted, wrong to assume Cena is the underdog.
So he always manages to come back? Yeah, until the time he doesn't.
And I don;t understand wanting to see people you like lose. I like knowing what I'm going to see going in, especially if what I'm going to see is a victory for a favorite.
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BigWill
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 16,619
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Post by BigWill on Jan 17, 2013 17:35:34 GMT -5
Guys like batista are stronger than Cena. Guys like Punk and Bryan are better wrestlers than Cena. So why is it, besides the fact we know it's scripted, wrong to assume Cena is the underdog. Because he isn't.
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Post by Brother Nero....Wolfe on Jan 17, 2013 17:44:31 GMT -5
Guys like batista are stronger than Cena. Guys like Punk and Bryan are better wrestlers than Cena. So why is it, besides the fact we know it's scripted, wrong to assume Cena is the underdog. Because Cena has repeatedly shown that none of the things you mentioned stop him from winning. The underdog is the guy who's expected to lose. Cena wins often enough people expect him to win. He's not the underdog. Even if it was a real-life sport, people would go "Hey this guy has won enough times I don't really expect him to lose. He has already shown that those disadvantages don't affect his chances of winning."
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Post by Mr. Socko's Brother on Jan 17, 2013 18:08:11 GMT -5
Guys like batista are stronger than Cena. Guys like Punk and Bryan are better wrestlers than Cena. So why is it, besides the fact we know it's scripted, wrong to assume Cena is the underdog. Let me make a comic-book analogy. Unsurprisingly, it's going to involve Superman. Somebody might similarly say "Well, the Flash is faster than Superman, and Batman has a lot more martial arts training than Superman, and a Green Lantern can create anything he can imagine and use it against Superman. So doesn't that mean that if any of those guys challenged Superman, Superman would be the underdog?" And the answer is "NO." Because he is f***ing Superman and he is invulnerable. Nothing that they can possibly hit him with is going to put him away, aside from kryptonite. (And I do know that Batman's managed to beat him in the past somehow, but I have no idea how Bats did so, and in that fight Superman was in no way the underdog.) Superman can take everybody's best shot, multiple times over, and come back, and in the case of Flash, Batman, or any Green Lantern, he only has to hit them once to put them away. That's how it is with Cena. Except Cena doesn't have any weakness like kryptonite.
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Post by cahuette on Jan 17, 2013 18:34:04 GMT -5
Guys like batista are stronger than Cena. Guys like Punk and Bryan are better wrestlers than Cena. So why is it, besides the fact we know it's scripted, wrong to assume Cena is the underdog. That's how it is with Cena. Except Cena doesn't have any weakness like kryptonite. You forgot tables.
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Post by Mr. Socko's Brother on Jan 17, 2013 18:40:21 GMT -5
That's how it is with Cena. Except Cena doesn't have any weakness like kryptonite. You forgot tables. Oh, that's right. Okay, tables in tables matches are his kryptonite. And slippery top ropes, I guess. (That reminds me: Hogan apparently had kryptonite when he was the face of the WWF. I began watching OSW Review after the Botchamania site introduced me to it, and the guys who do that show mentioned that Hogan's been stopped in mid-Hulk-Up by a thumb to they eye at least once.)
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Jan 17, 2013 18:51:08 GMT -5
Read like a paragraph or so and meh.
Not that I disagree with the points I saw or any of that; it's just, I don't get the need to write a dissertation about why ya like a guy or dislike a guy as if you have to justify it.
If ya like someone awesome, if someone else or even a large group of someone elses don't, who gives a shit?
This weird need to validate one's own opinion is odd.
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Post by Andrew is Good on Jan 17, 2013 18:56:31 GMT -5
I've mentioned it before, but my favourite John Cena hater is my room mates 5 year old nephew. He HATES John Cena, like, it's a bit weird. His mom had a shirt with John Cena on it, and he didn't want it simply because it had Cena on it. When my room mate goes over to babysit, he will want to wrestle her and say, "I'm Big Show, you're John Cena" and would throw stuff at her.
He loves Big Show for some reason, but it could be because he's tough, dominant, larger then life and all that good stuff. But yeah, he is my favourite Cena hater, because I guess he just doesn't buy into Cena, or he hates him because he hears a lot of fans hating him, but it is weird, because I've been to shows where kids older then him are big Cena fans.
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Post by Pgarodactyl on Jan 17, 2013 19:46:32 GMT -5
Guys like batista are stronger than Cena. Guys like Punk and Bryan are better wrestlers than Cena. So why is it, besides the fact we know it's scripted, wrong to assume Cena is the underdog. "You, like the Red Sox, like Boston, are no longer the underdog. You're a dynasty. You are what you hate. You. Have become. The New York Yankees." - Charles Montgomery "CM" Punk.
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Post by Starshine on Jan 17, 2013 19:57:06 GMT -5
Can I just ask what it is that some fans find so hard to understand that some other fans, like myself don't like Cena?
No one is obligated to like any one guy. Cena isn't an exception to that.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2013 20:08:29 GMT -5
All that proves is that the guy who is 15th on the list of "most wins" still got more WWE Title shots than anyone else on the list.
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Post by 1 Free Moon-Down with Burger on Jan 17, 2013 20:08:38 GMT -5
People just have different tastes. No biggie.
I personally think Cena's the best wrestler on the planet currently. But some don't. It's fine.
Only thing I have a problem with is the "You can't wrestle" stuff really.
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xCompackx
Wade Wilson
Posts: 27,257
Member is Online
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Post by xCompackx on Jan 17, 2013 20:15:48 GMT -5
I only read up until the "His gimmick his being an underdog" part. I'm sorry, but what? John Cena is about as "underdog" as Undertaker is at WrestleMania. Rey Mysterio, sure. John Cena? Sorry, but no.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Jan 17, 2013 20:22:25 GMT -5
Guys like batista are stronger than Cena. Guys like Punk and Bryan are better wrestlers than Cena. So why is it, besides the fact we know it's scripted, wrong to assume Cena is the underdog. "You, like the Red Sox, like Boston, are no longer the underdog. You're a dynasty. You are what you hate. You. Have become. The New York Yankees." - Charles Montgomery "CM" Punk. I just don't see it that way.
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The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
Posts: 37,295
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Post by The Ichi on Jan 17, 2013 21:25:42 GMT -5
So he can dish it out, but he can't take it. Yeah, moving along.... Every anti-smark ever, basically.
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Post by sunnytaker on Jan 17, 2013 21:50:07 GMT -5
"You, like the Red Sox, like Boston, are no longer the underdog. You're a dynasty. You are what you hate. You. Have become. The New York Yankees." - Charles Montgomery "CM" Punk. I just don't see it that way. it's like what NeroWolfe said- Cena has overcome those kinds of odds so many times that a lot of people no longer see those things as being something that really puts Cena at a disadvantage anymore. it's more of a surprise when he doesn;t overcome the supposed odds which puts him as the favorite to win the majority of his matches. the only time recently that i personally saw Cena as an underdog was his match with Brock and the next is if he ever faces the Undertaker at Wrestlemania. (Taker at non-mania events would be even odds). Cena's seen so much as the favorite in a match that people here were questioning if the Rock, in his hometown, in his first singles match in however may years it was, had a chance of beating Cena in his big comeback one on one match. 2012 actually helped his rep somewhat as he was away from the title for the most part and seemed to lose more than he did in the past few years combined i think. the hate only really appeared with him main eventing ppvs while not champ (though he lost as much as he won) instead of the champ Punk. and nowit's back with the current Ziggler feud
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