mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Mar 13, 2013 18:57:59 GMT -5
These comments on Ziggler strike me as funny. I've seen a lot of posts comparing him to a modern Mr. Perfect. I also recently read a post, I think on Wrestlecrap but it might have been around here, talking about Mr. Perfect and saying how his character wasn't the kind people cheered. So, the old Mr. Perfect wasn't face material, but the new is?
As for what Ziggler has done to get booed, that briefcase isn't in the shape it's in because of poor baggage handling. He's attacked people with weapon in non match situations, caused intentional losses while champion to escape with his title, dated authority figures to get power, had his girlfriend ban Edge's finishing move to increase the odds Ziggler would win a match and gotten her to award him the World title despite losing that match. He's also ordered his bodyguard to attack people after matches are over.
And this is what drives me crazy about many who cheer heels. If a face does something nasty, even if it's after a previous attack by a heel and setup as turnabout is fairplay, it's harped on constantly, while with a heel if he hasn't plotted to blow up an orphanage in the past week his previous behavior is forgotten, despite the fact most people on the net will talk about matches years in the past.
Wade Barrett led a massive assault on WWE. Until he actually turns face and does something decent like backing up someone who needs it that should count against him, in addition to his cockiness. And anyway, when Sheamus interrupted Wade's promo about starring in Dead Man Down he was supposed to be an audience surrogate. Because if Sheamus hadn't called Barrett on that claim a ton of people online would have been ripping WWE for claiming Wade was the star. Barrett certainly wasn't being bullied, he was being given a reality check.
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Post by drjayphd (feat. Pitbull) on Mar 13, 2013 19:03:33 GMT -5
I don't see what's so bad about booing heels though, I think it's fun. I watched my friend do a match last month and he was working as a heel. Do you think I cheered him because he's my friend? Of course not, he was trying to get over as a heel so I tried to help him do that. I booed the hell out of him and started chants about how much he sucks. It makes matches better when the crowd is behind the babyface and against the heel. It makes the wrestlers feel like the things they're doing are working. Truly being supportive of someone involves trying to help them accomplish their goal, that's what I'm trying to say. It is a little different with WWE though, since the brand is really what sells now and an appealing brand identity is the basis on which they try to attract new business. The indies, on the other hand, tend to rely more on traditional feud building so the face/heel dynamic is more significant. It's also a different situation because I'm guessing your friend could use all the "support" (read: appropriate reactions) he can get. CM Punk's basically a made man, so he doesn't have to worry about his career being derailed by an audience not reacting the way it should. Your friend, on the other hand, is probably trying to establish himself as a heel, so it's the best thing for him if you boo him out of the building.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Mar 13, 2013 19:58:10 GMT -5
I cheered Mr. Perfect as a kid.
Didn't care he was a 'bad guy'. He was awesome. Even to 10 year old me.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2013 20:06:24 GMT -5
If CMP was anywhere near the best in the world, he could get heat Guys cross that threshold of being really hard to boo at some point now. Triple H, Undertaker, The Rock, HBK, and Edge all got to that point, and it's not any mark on their talent whatsoever. They're forcing it with Punk harder than they've tried with anyone in a long time. John Cena gets booed by half the building as a babyface, does that mean he's not good?
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Post by KingPopper on Mar 14, 2013 1:33:02 GMT -5
I've heard Jericho post on this subject before, so I tried it. It's easier said then done. You want to cheer for what you like and boo for what you hate. Just last month when Raw was in Nashville, two of the biggest pops of the night was Hornswoggle getting the WSS and Miz getting tossed back and forth into rail by Cesaro. It's always been like that, its a show where 80 year old women getting power bombed threw a table gets cheered, so of course Punk stealing the urn and bashing Kane on the head with it gets cheered. I don't see why people are complaining about it now.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2013 6:46:17 GMT -5
People cheering Punk is annoying, mostly because he's a c*** who tried to exploit a woman getting the hell beaten out of her to further his career. Plus, he cheated on Daffney. What kind of idiot does that? You're one of those "Oh you don't know what she said to Brown, you weren't there, who are you to judge #TeamBreezy" type of people? I bet if someone beats your mother or sister you would be fine with it as long as that person mskes music and wins an award? Heaven forbid someone talks bad about that saint called Chris Brown. Man of the decade.
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Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
HaHa U FaLL 4 LaVa TriK
Posts: 46,205
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Mar 14, 2013 7:31:17 GMT -5
I've heard Jericho post on this subject before, so I tried it. It's easier said then done. You want to cheer for what you like and boo for what you hate. Just last month when Raw was in Nashville, two of the biggest pops of the night was Hornswoggle getting the WSS and Miz getting tossed back and forth into rail by Cesaro. It's always been like that, its a show where 80 year old women getting power bombed threw a table gets cheered, so of course Punk stealing the urn and bashing Kane on the head with it gets cheered. I don't see why people are complaining about it now. And note that the only way that Jericho could get heel heat was to eventually get X-Pac Heat to the point where many were saying "Look, Chris, I loved you, but I never want to see you on my TV again. I know that you're being boring on purpose to be a heel, but boring is boring. Go away."
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Post by KofiMania on Mar 14, 2013 16:18:50 GMT -5
How do some people not understand the concept of rewarding a heel for a good performance by giving them the reaction they're going for? Someone actually called it "beyond stupid". That's like saying it's stupid to laugh at a comedian. I don't think anyone would suggest that you fake laugh at a comedian, even if you don't think he's funny. That's the same as booing someone you like. No I think the equivalent would be laughing at a comedian you like's joke at the wrong time of the joke, totally interrupting the flow of the joke and making a spectacle of yourself at the show, just because you "paid for your ticket" and wanted to laugh at that point.
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Crimson
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Post by Crimson on Mar 15, 2013 0:11:15 GMT -5
People cheering Punk is annoying, mostly because he's a c*** who tried to exploit a woman getting the hell beaten out of her to further his career. Plus, he cheated on Daffney. What kind of idiot does that? You're one of those "Oh you don't know what she said to Brown, you weren't there, who are you to judge #TeamBreezy" type of people? I bet if someone beats your mother or sister you would be fine with it as long as that person mskes music and wins an award? Heaven forbid someone talks bad about that saint called Chris Brown. Man of the decade. The hell? Dude you just created a blatant straw man. Chris Brown has absolutely zero to do with a discussion.
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BigWill
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by BigWill on Mar 15, 2013 0:17:24 GMT -5
I don't think anyone would suggest that you fake laugh at a comedian, even if you don't think he's funny. That's the same as booing someone you like. No I think the equivalent would be laughing at a comedian you like's joke at the wrong time of the joke, totally interrupting the flow of the joke and making a spectacle of yourself at the show, just because you "paid for your ticket" and wanted to laugh at that point. Not even close.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2013 1:29:18 GMT -5
I don't think anyone would suggest that you fake laugh at a comedian, even if you don't think he's funny. That's the same as booing someone you like. No I think the equivalent would be laughing at a comedian you like's joke at the wrong time of the joke, totally interrupting the flow of the joke and making a spectacle of yourself at the show, just because you "paid for your ticket" and wanted to laugh at that point. The thing in common here is a visceral, honest reaction. You cheer for someone you like, you laugh at something that's funny, without conciously deciding to do it. I really do understand the concept of giving heels heat instead of cheering them. I just think that it's not a realistic expectation. It's a unique situation that I don't think accurately compares to any other form of entertainment.
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Post by Da (No Sold) 7-1-3 Itch on Mar 15, 2013 1:33:28 GMT -5
Wrestling is by nature a tongue in cheek thing. So someone saying you should do this, do that and "respect" the performer by cheering/booing is just ridiculous to me. Wrestling isn't designed to be taken this serious.
Everyone is in on the joke, so I never agree with this issue that you're supposed to boo who you like if he's the "bad guy". Once im a fan of someone for a long time, CM Punk in this case, I cheer for them regardless of the heel/face standing.
Then again I never do what I'm supposed to do, and hate when people tell me to act a certain way.
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Post by celticjobber on Mar 15, 2013 1:40:09 GMT -5
I've always booed heels no matter how much I liked them, out of respect. Hell, Bret Hart has basically been a god to me since I was a little kid, but I still booed the hell out of him when I went to WWF RAW tapings in 1997.
But I guess some people have more fun not playing along, because they want to be rebels.
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BigWill
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by BigWill on Mar 15, 2013 1:57:41 GMT -5
But I guess some people have more fun not playing along, because they want to be rebels. It's not about wanting to be rebels. There's a difference between doing something because you want to, and doing something because that's the opposite of what's expected from you.
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Bub (BLM)
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Mar 15, 2013 2:00:02 GMT -5
I've always booed heels no matter how much I liked them, out of respect. Hell, Bret Hart has basically been a god to me since I was a little kid, but I still booed the hell out of him when I went to WWF RAW tapings in 1997. But I guess some people have more fun not playing along, because they want to be rebels. Why in the hell is cheering for your favorite wrestler wanting to "be a rebel"? Maybe people LIKE CM PUNK. Jesus christ, this thread has made me realize what absolute snobs wrestling fans can be. Maybe you guys should write a list of rules to keep us "rebels" in line.
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Post by Free Hat on Mar 15, 2013 2:15:33 GMT -5
The thing about heel heat is that it's historically been rooted in genuine dislike for the characters. Think back to the 70s, when people were ready to riot after Koloff beat Sammartino for the title, or Hogan getting pelted with garbage after he and two other "WWF" guys pissed all over WCW and its fans, or people frothing at the mouth to see Steve Austin kick Vince McMahon's ass in 1998, etc. If you can't elicit that kind of response naturally, you can't blame the audience for not reacting the way you want them to. It's the job of the bookers and performers to MAKE the fans want to boo them.
Also keep in mind that a villain is only as effective as the hero he's working against. If people actually like the babyfaces LESS than the heels, as is often the case with Cena, expecting them to fake cheer for them just because they're the "good guys" is absurd.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Mar 15, 2013 5:56:06 GMT -5
But I guess some people have more fun not playing along, because they want to be rebels. It's not about wanting to be rebels. There's a difference between doing something because you want to, and doing something because that's the opposite of what's expected from you. and quite a few people here mention not being willing to do what WWE wants.
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Post by jp49er80 on Mar 15, 2013 6:11:46 GMT -5
Also keep in mind that a villain is only as effective as the hero he's working against. If people actually like the babyfaces LESS than the heels, as is often the case with Cena, expecting them to fake cheer for them just because they're the "good guys" is absurd. Bang on, and therein lies the rub. No one gets booed against Cena, bar Wade Barrett and Johnny Ace, because 99% of the time, the 'heel' is more popular. Take Punk. People want to cheer the guy and have done since 2011. This turn is forced, badly booked and badly written, and it shows, because the fans won't take to it.
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Post by Next Level was WRONG on Mar 15, 2013 6:17:56 GMT -5
People cheering Punk is annoying, mostly because he's a c*** who tried to exploit a woman getting the hell beaten out of her to further his career. Plus, he cheated on Daffney. What kind of idiot does that? You're one of those "Oh you don't know what she said to Brown, you weren't there, who are you to judge #TeamBreezy" type of people? I bet if someone beats your mother or sister you would be fine with it as long as that person mskes music and wins an award? Heaven forbid someone talks bad about that saint called Chris Brown. Man of the decade. Chris Brown is an asshole and deserves anything bad that anyone says about him. However, desperately trying to boost your profile by going onto any news, radio or media show in order to talk trash about him is exploiting what Rihanna went through. This is what Punk did. If it wasn't, he wouldn't worship the ground Austin walks on, because Austin is every bit as bad as Brown. Try reading whatever thread you want to post in next time.
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Post by HMARK Center on Mar 15, 2013 6:34:40 GMT -5
I've always booed heels no matter how much I liked them, out of respect. Hell, Bret Hart has basically been a god to me since I was a little kid, but I still booed the hell out of him when I went to WWF RAW tapings in 1997. But I guess some people have more fun not playing along, because they want to be rebels. Why in the hell is cheering for your favorite wrestler wanting to "be a rebel"? Maybe people LIKE CM PUNK. Jesus christ, this thread has made me realize what absolute snobs wrestling fans can be. Maybe you guys should write a list of rules to keep us "rebels" in line. I do find the idea of people thinking "shows are better if heels are being booed" being elitist is pretty funny. Again, I don't grasp the idea that "we're all in on the joke" while we watch pro wrestling. Are we all "in on the joke" with any other work of fiction? Appreciating somebody's performance is obviously great, but wrestling products really do suffer these days due to how wrestlers have to interact with modern, much more jaded audiences. I'll emphasize again, however, that WWF and other companies brought it on themselves since the late 90's, but it doesn't change that the wrestling world suffers for it, by and large.
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