Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
HaHa U FaLL 4 LaVa TriK
Posts: 46,205
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Mar 13, 2013 9:33:14 GMT -5
The greatest problem the pipebomb promo had was that it hit all the right notes with disaffected fans who feel the WWE is not for them anymore. In hindsight, I'm sure Punk would never have changed a word in that promo because it was the biggest moment of his career. But his delivery wasn't that of a garden variety heel. He sounded more like a regular guy fed up with the politics of his job. Very much a relate-able story for most of us. If the intended effect was for him to remain a whiny, bratty heel and lose in Chicago at MitB and leave the WWE for a few months, he failed miserably because he became an overnight celebrity and had to re-up his contract. Of course, with Punk, I don't know what's real and what isn't anymore. Which is a pretty cool trick to pull. But look back at what he actually says in the promo: - The fans are greedy/lazy assholes who need to get a real job and stop "harassing" him at the airport to sign things that don't have his picture on it. - Stephanie and Triple H are huge idiots who will destroy the company. - Vince McMahon being dead would almost make things better. - The Rock is an asshole for getting to main event WrestleMania. How can someone say stuff like this and be called relateable and cheerable? I mean the guy almost wished death upon his own boss! ------------------------------- It annoys me when the heel can't get booed because the fans refuse to boo him. Some people say "ooooooh what he's saying is just cheap heat, it's all fake" NEWSFLASH: WRESTLING IS FAKE! Everything being said is fake. The good guys are fake, the bad guys are fake, the in betweeners are fake, THEY'RE ALL FAKE! It seems like some people have become so full of Punk that they lose sight as wrestling fans and almost worship the ground the guy stands on. This is coming from someone who owns two CM Punk shirts and was in love with the guy from 2007-2010. I still like the guy now, but his fanbase has gotten tough to deal with. Some people will ask why that matters. Well look at Justin Bieber's fans and you'll see what I mean. It's not THAT bad, but it's still annoying to see how much lee way the guy actually gets. This kind of goes along with the 'new kayfabe'/'working the internet' side of things, where, a large portion of the time, how you feel about someone on-screen affects what you think of them as a person off-screen (and the inverse as well). Kind of the whole "You wouldn't be OK with it if Batista said/did this!" effect. Cena on-screen comes off to many IWC fans as a WWE Robot who shakes everything off and shows no personal emotion, just endlessly shilling. That bleeds into how he's perceived outside the ring by some as well, regardless of if they consciously know better or not. Punk, on the other hand, is someone who says want his fanbase wants to hear, not just in promos, but on twitter and interviews as well. On top of that, his persona is basically that of the WWE Ubermensch, exclaiming that God (Vince, WWE) is Dead, and he is the New Way, the embodiment of the New Values (and basically beyond the typical "Face or Heel" wrestling morality. He's a bastard, but he's doing it to destroy the old order and create a new one in his image). Cena, of course, is the Last Man, the embodiment of the Old Way (Safe, No Risk, Secure, doesn't allow the Superior to Rise) that people must turn away from. I understand that both aren't supposed to be able to exist at the same time, but here we are.
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The OP
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
changed his name
Posts: 15,785
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Post by The OP on Mar 13, 2013 9:33:30 GMT -5
I don't see what's so bad about booing heels though, I think it's fun. I watched my friend do a match last month and he was working as a heel. Do you think I cheered him because he's my friend? Of course not, he was trying to get over as a heel so I tried to help him do that. I booed the hell out of him and started chants about how much he sucks. It makes matches better when the crowd is behind the babyface and against the heel. It makes the wrestlers feel like the things they're doing are working. Truly being supportive of someone involves trying to help them accomplish their goal, that's what I'm trying to say.
It is a little different with WWE though, since the brand is really what sells now and an appealing brand identity is the basis on which they try to attract new business. The indies, on the other hand, tend to rely more on traditional feud building so the face/heel dynamic is more significant.
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kidglov3s
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wants her Shot
Who is Tiger Maskooo?
Posts: 15,870
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Post by kidglov3s on Mar 13, 2013 9:39:00 GMT -5
I don't see what's so bad about booing heels though, I think it's fun. I watched my friend do a match last month and he was working as a heel. Do you think I cheered him because he's my friend? Of course not, he was trying to get over as a heel so I tried to help him do that. I booed the hell out of him and started chants about how much he sucks. It makes matches better when the crowd is behind the babyface and against the heel. It makes the wrestlers feel like the things they're doing are working. Truly being supportive of someone involves trying to help them accomplish their goal, that's what I'm trying to say. It is a little different with WWE though, since the brand is really what sells now and an appealing brand identity is the basis on which they try to attract new business. The indies, on the other hand, tend to rely more on traditional feud building so the face/heel dynamic is more significant. I think there's also the celebrity element. Like, every week I see CM Punk on tv, and with Christian gone all I really got is him The Rock and Brock Lesnar. So when I get to see him at a show 2 or 3 times a year, this larger than life figure that keeps me hanging on through the torture of 3 hour Raws, you bet I'm gonna cheer for him. Yknow, when I go to wrestling shows it's a really big inconvenience in my life between working full time and being in nursing school, and also a big expense. That I make to contribute my voice to the CM Punk Rules John Cena's a Douche Isn't The Rock Great Collective. But if it's just your friend or some dude or whatever, it becomes a completely different dynamic. What you describe to me crosses the barrier from spectator to performer. You're essentially subscribing yourself to being a part of his act. And I don't think anyone is saying don't boo heels. I think there's a divide between say whatever you want you unique individual, one of billions on this incredible planet earth and BOO ROBOT BOO. Would you boo your friend if you were Cabana at MITB 2011? CM Punk, after all, was ostensibly a heel.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Mar 13, 2013 9:42:07 GMT -5
I tell you what... this should be a university course or something (Smarkology: A Study of the Modern Wrestling Fan). Just so much dialogue from both sides of the argument.
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The OP
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
changed his name
Posts: 15,785
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Post by The OP on Mar 13, 2013 9:43:00 GMT -5
I don't see what's so bad about booing heels though, I think it's fun. I watched my friend do a match last month and he was working as a heel. Do you think I cheered him because he's my friend? Of course not, he was trying to get over as a heel so I tried to help him do that. I booed the hell out of him and started chants about how much he sucks. It makes matches better when the crowd is behind the babyface and against the heel. It makes the wrestlers feel like the things they're doing are working. Truly being supportive of someone involves trying to help them accomplish their goal, that's what I'm trying to say. It is a little different with WWE though, since the brand is really what sells now and an appealing brand identity is the basis on which they try to attract new business. The indies, on the other hand, tend to rely more on traditional feud building so the face/heel dynamic is more significant. I think there's also the celebrity element. Like, every week I see CM Punk on tv, and with Christian gone all I really got is him The Rock and Brock Lesnar. So when I get to see him at a show 2 or 3 times a year, this larger than life figure that keeps me hanging on through the torture of 3 hour Raws, you bet I'm gonna cheer for him. But if it's just your friend or some dude or whatever, it becomes a completely different dynamic. What you describe to me crosses the barrier from spectator to performer. You're essentially subscribing yourself to being a part of his act. And I don't think anyone is saying don't boo heels. I think there's a divide between say whatever you want you unique individual, one of billions on this incredible planet earth and BOO ROBOT BOO. Would you boo your friend if you were Cabana at MITB 2011? CM Punk, after all, was ostensibly a heel. I honestly don't know. It's a good question.
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Post by HMARK Center on Mar 13, 2013 10:36:13 GMT -5
The issue, at least from my perspective, is that WWE, and by extension much of the rest of the industry, began a vicious cycle in terms of generating crowd reactions back when they consciously decided to kill off kayfabe once and for all.
As pointed out before, we've entered an age where so many people consider themselves "smart to the business", and they feel they want to cheer the individual who's performing in the ring, instead of giving heat to the character that individual is portraying.
Why do that? Movie audiences certainly don't do that; yes, Hannibal Lecter and Heath Ledger's Joker are iconic villains that audiences appreciate to enormous extents, but during the film you don't get, say, Anthony Hopkins fans standing up and cheering him while he's killing somebody on screen as Lecter.
Well, there's a reason: the company has spent a long time encouraging such behavior, and has spent many years trying to reinforce to the audience "almost all of what you see here is fake, because now and then we show you what's behind the curtain!". WWE has trained its audience to do these things, and they reap the poor harvest they sow.
To me, this doesn't totally excuse an audience; I'll be frank, I dislike hearing heels getting cheered if they're truly good heels. I understand appreciating a heel's work, I even understand buying their merchandise, but again, I go back to the movie mentality: while I realize this is just my perspective, if I'm at a wrestling show I attempt to turn off what I know about these guys as human beings. While I'm at a show, I prefer to focus on the characters they're playing, as if I'm watching a regular fictional TV show or film.
But again, the companies have now spent years basically encouraging fans to "get yourself over at a show!". "Go ahead, bring a ridiculous sign, start heat-killing cheers, cheer the individual you like, because what YOU like is more important than what's good for the show we're presenting!".
Frankly, who could blame fans for taking advantage of this? If somebody's telling me that what I want is paramount, that the show they're doing is secondary to my whims and desires, then why wouldn't I jump all over it? Again, it's the company reaping what it sows.
Last but not least, it still boils down to ineffective, poorly booked babyfaces. WWE is the biggest offender in this regard (racist Sheamus, never-evolving Cena, etc.), but you can even look to some recent TNA shows: is Chavo Guerrero going to get many pops from a crowd if he's working as a bland face against a team like Austin Aries and Bobby Roode? Heath Ledger's Joker only truly works because he runs counter to Batman, a heroic figure that audiences adore; Hannibal Lecter only truly works because he terrorizes Clarice Starling, a likable, relatable character the audience wants to see come out on top (if we just ignore the sequel for a bit).
At the end of the day, I do get annoyed by the crowds that seem to just refuse to say "it's just a show, I should really just relax" (tm MST3K) and give good heels the crowd heat they so desire, but I also can't sit here and pretend that WWE, and again, other companies as well, didn't play the biggest role in actively encouraging this type of crowd behavior...until it runs counter to their booking goals, then suddenly they hate it. Tough luck, boys, you opened Pandora's Box.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Mar 13, 2013 10:42:08 GMT -5
WWE are to 'blame'. From the promo bout not insulting intelligence by Vince at the outset of Attitude, THEY decided and told fans good guys v. bad guys was passe.
Cemented it with Austin and really hammered it home with Rock. Even at his most face, Rock is an asshole to people; he's just so cool it doesn't matter.
Been that way for a generation now.
Genie's outta the bottle. People reacting how they're "supposed" to is dead.
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kidglov3s
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wants her Shot
Who is Tiger Maskooo?
Posts: 15,870
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Post by kidglov3s on Mar 13, 2013 10:44:47 GMT -5
Wouldn't a better comparison be a sporting event, specifically something like a Michigan/Ohio State kinda deal, rather than a movie?
Because like, even there, I've had times where I've gone against what I was supposed to do.
I can vividly recall 5th grade, we had a drawing project because the Red Wings were in the Stanley Cup Finals and we got to make Red Wings pictures. I made a Flyers picture because in my world at the time Eric Lindros was the coolest thing on ice.
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Post by "American Cream" Dusty Loads on Mar 13, 2013 10:45:10 GMT -5
WWE are to 'blame'. From the promo bout not insulting intelligence by Vince at the outset of Attitude, THEY decided and told fans good guys v. bad guys was passe. Cemented it with Austin and really hammered it home with Rock. Even at his most face, Rock is an asshole to people; he's just so cool it doesn't matter. Been that way for a generation now. Genie's outta the bottle. People reacting how they're "supposed" to is dead. And to be honest, I like it better that way.
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Post by 01010010 01101001 01100011 on Mar 13, 2013 10:51:51 GMT -5
Wouldn't a better comparison be a sporting event, specifically something like a Michigan/Ohio State kinda deal, rather than a movie? Because like, even there, I've had times where I've gone against what I was supposed to do. I can vividly recall 5th grade, we had a drawing project because the Red Wings were in the Stanley Cup Finals and we got to make Red Wings pictures. I made a Flyers picture because in my world at the time Eric Lindros was the coolest thing on ice. Dammit, I don't give no shit 'bout no ice hockey but you best been cheering for Michigan!
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Mar 13, 2013 10:52:38 GMT -5
WWE are to 'blame'. From the promo bout not insulting intelligence by Vince at the outset of Attitude, THEY decided and told fans home with Rock. Even at his most face, Ro Genie's outta the bottle. People reacting how they're "supposed" to is dead. And to be honest, I like it better that way. same here honestly. Sports analogy works for me. You're rooting for YOUR guys now. Like boxing or UFC.
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kidglov3s
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wants her Shot
Who is Tiger Maskooo?
Posts: 15,870
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Post by kidglov3s on Mar 13, 2013 10:52:55 GMT -5
Wouldn't a better comparison be a sporting event, specifically something like a Michigan/Ohio State kinda deal, rather than a movie? Because like, even there, I've had times where I've gone against what I was supposed to do. I can vividly recall 5th grade, we had a drawing project because the Red Wings were in the Stanley Cup Finals and we got to make Red Wings pictures. I made a Flyers picture because in my world at the time Eric Lindros was the coolest thing on ice. Dammit, I don't give no s*** 'bout no ice hockey but you best been cheering for Michigan! Yeah, I can't turn heel on my alma mater. And to be honest, I like it better that way. same here honestly. Sports analogy works for me. You're rooting for YOUR guys now. Like boxing or UFC. Exactly. And that's how it should be. Personalities and loyalties should have precedence over the half assed morality play factor.
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Post by HMARK Center on Mar 13, 2013 11:13:09 GMT -5
Wouldn't a better comparison be a sporting event, specifically something like a Michigan/Ohio State kinda deal, rather than a movie? Because like, even there, I've had times where I've gone against what I was supposed to do. I can vividly recall 5th grade, we had a drawing project because the Red Wings were in the Stanley Cup Finals and we got to make Red Wings pictures. I made a Flyers picture because in my world at the time Eric Lindros was the coolest thing on ice. I really don't think it is. In professional sports, there is no "suspension of disbelief", because just about every single thing you see during a game is real (outside of maybe guys getting into altercations just to pump their teammates up instead of out of real animosity). The athletes are real people, playing a sport with no pre-determined outcomes (unless gambling's involved), and are under no pressure to create characters to evoke crowd reactions. Crowd reactions are almost entirely based on what goes on on the turf, ice, court, or what have you. Pro wrestling is basically the exact opposite of all of this. It's pre-determined, scripted, and how "good" guys are in the ring is secondary to how effectively guys can evoke responses from the crowd with the characters they portray, whether they be good or bad guys. It's fiction. An audience, particularly one that's "smart to the business", shouldn't have much trouble approaching it as fiction. Again, however, I lay the blame at WWE's feet: they wanted this in the late 90's, but now here we are 15+ years later and they wish they could take it back.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Mar 13, 2013 11:14:35 GMT -5
I'm of two minds about cheering heels. On one hand, I don't have a problem with it, because not only is it my right to enjoy the show in the way I so choose (I'll cheer for Bryan and Cena regardless of their alignment), heel supporters are mostly in the minority. A heel that gets a massive slew of cheers everywhere is usually on the verge of being turned face. And Punk's face pops are nowhere big enough for that to happen right away, so I'd say he's doing his job fairly well.
On the other hand though, the morality play is a core principle of wrestling, and not only does it deserve to stay, it never really left at any point- not even during Attitude. And that was partly due to how unspeakably evil Mr. McMahon, Coroporate Rock and the Ministry were. So I don't think the burden is on today's faces allegedly being bland, I'd say this is more of an issue of today's heels not being booked heelish enough. Guys like Ziggler and (current) Barrett are prime examples, they could be babyfaces aside from their cockiness.
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hitch
Don Corleone
Hitch knot
Posts: 1,696
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Post by hitch on Mar 13, 2013 11:14:46 GMT -5
I can accept there' a difference between cheering a guy because you like him and cheering him when he's done something deliberately to get you to jeer him. I'd say the latter is disrespectful
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saintpat
El Dandy
Release the hounds!!!
Posts: 7,664
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Post by saintpat on Mar 13, 2013 11:17:17 GMT -5
If CMP was anywhere near the best in the world, he could get heat
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Post by xxshoyuweeniexx on Mar 13, 2013 12:27:04 GMT -5
I'm of two minds about cheering heels. On one hand, I don't have a problem with it, because not only is it my right to enjoy the show in the way I so choose (I'll cheer for Bryan and Cena regardless of their alignment), heel supporters are mostly in the minority. A heel that gets a massive slew of cheers everywhere is usually on the verge of being turned face. And Punk's face pops are nowhere big enough for that to happen right away, so I'd say he's doing his job fairly well. On the other hand though, the morality play is a core principle of wrestling, and not only does it deserve to stay, it never really left at any point- not even during Attitude. And that was partly due to how unspeakably evil Mr. McMahon, Coroporate Rock and the Ministry were. So I don't think the burden is on today's faces allegedly being bland, I'd say this is more of an issue of today's heels not being booked heelish enough. Guys like Ziggler and (current) Barrett are prime examples, they could be babyfaces aside from their cockiness. I agree. I've said this before, and I've said it again. The heels, most of them outside of Show, Henry, Lesnar, Cesaro, Shield and now Swagger, are just complete little bitches. Like Dolph Ziggler? Oooh he has a slutty girlfriend and a big black black man by him while he does nothing remotely bad and loses all the time? That's great for a main event heel in ROH or some indy company where having really good matches is all that matters, but in the larger than life world the WWE main event with a history of larger than life characters with insane charisma out of the ring, he's not even fit to sniff the same air as those heels. And then you have awful faces to complete the loser wussy heels, you've basically got a bully who's supposed to be a good guy and a guy who can never win who becomes an underdog as the bad guy. Who's the crowd supposed to cheer in that situation, the underdog or the guy who wins all the time?
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The OP
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
changed his name
Posts: 15,785
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Post by The OP on Mar 13, 2013 12:32:56 GMT -5
I don't think the burden is on today's faces allegedly being bland, I'd say this is more of an issue of today's heels not being booked heelish enough. Guys like Ziggler and (current) Barrett are prime examples, they could be babyfaces aside from their cockiness. This is actually a good point. For instance, what has Dolph Ziggler ever done that was supposed to make me hate him so much?
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Mar 13, 2013 12:47:04 GMT -5
I don't think the burden is on today's faces allegedly being bland, I'd say this is more of an issue of today's heels not being booked heelish enough. Guys like Ziggler and (current) Barrett are prime examples, they could be babyfaces aside from their cockiness. This is actually a good point. For instance, what has Dolph Ziggler ever done that was supposed to make me hate him so much? "hur dur he does bicycles while he has his opponent in a headlock and he has a cute girlfriend". yeah WWE does a terrible job when it comes to giving their heels legitimate reasons to be hated.
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Post by Hobby Drifter on Mar 13, 2013 18:57:48 GMT -5
Why doesn't the first mean a person has failed at his job, professorsmooth, if the second does? It does. Booing a face sends the message that he's bad in that role...which is the message you're trying to send. "You suck! Boo!" But cheering a heel sends that same message...while intending to support him.
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