Post by Kash Flagg on Mar 24, 2013 21:15:12 GMT -5
Thought it was time for one of these since some big changes are coming very soon. Before I get to the changes, I want to talk about how attitudes have been around here lately (myself included). Since I'm not as eloquent, our trusty wordsmith Psy wrote this up:
It's easy to lose sight of perspective when you're having a conversation with someone and you're not face-to-face. It's all too easy to see the words and forget that there is a person behind them that might feel just as strongly about what they're saying as you feel about your own side of things. The urge to swear, to let things devolve into an argument instead of the civil discourse you had planned to have is sometimes hard to deny. When that happens, all I ask is that you take a step back and try to see things from the other persons side of things. You do not have to agree with them, but try to see where they are coming from.
You can disagree with people without resorting to insults passively or aggressively. You can discuss things that are terrible, things that are controversial, things that are unpardonable, things that are silly, or things that are just plain unnecessary. I think the most important thing to a civil discourse is the implementation, by all parties, of perspective. You have to be able to see things from your own perspective, of course, but if you are going to understand the other people you might have to go outside of your comfort zone and try to see things from their perspective as well. I recently had a heated discussion with a friend of mine after he lied to escape jury duty. I did not agree with his solution at all and told him so. My friend has severe social anxiety. I've dealt with that myself before (and again, as it is a recurring problem for me) but I didn't think that excused his behavior. You are given an opportunity to speak to the judge and counsels and convince them of your sincerity and inability to serve on a jury. By instead saying racist things and behaving like a bigot he did not even try. I can see his point of view, and sympathize with it, without agreeing with it. Likewise he can see my point of view and understand it without agreeing with me.
We, the moderating staff at FAN, have had some tough times here. There have been moments of incredible sadness as we've lost members of these boards that we've come to know and cherish. There have been moments of personal anguish when loved ones pass on. There have times when we've overreacted, times when we've underreacted. There have been times when we've been threatened with lawsuits. There have been times when we've been threatened with closure. There have been good times, and bad times, and many times in between. I'm going to say "times" one more time... well, two more ti-, er, instances of the word. Just because. We make many decisions every day about what threads are due to be closed by behavior in them, which posts should be removed so we can keep a thread on-topic and free of flames & unsavory behavior. We don't make these decisions quite as lightly as many people seem to think. It is not arbitrary. We have a lot of experience in dealing with the after-effects of good threads going bad, of simple topics becoming swampy mires of misanthropy & chaos, of chat threads literally breaking the boards, and so many other things it's impossible to go over them all.
Did you know these boards have almost been closed down and deleted before? Not just once, either. These instances caused massive changes in our rules, changes that not a single one of us wanted to make or enforce. To keep the forums going we had to make those changes, though. It was literally our only choice other than opting for deletion. We still have to enforce those changes as well, though we have fairly recently altered them so that they are more acceptable. We know what it is like to be threatened by someone in authority over something we have limited control over simply because they don't want to be hassled. We do our best to not simply pass the buck and put it all on you guys, we strike as happy a medium as we can on this and all other issues.
We don't just make split-second permanent decisions about threads, posts, and the like. Would you like to know what we do? If a thread or post is reported to us using the "Report to Mod" feature, we discuss it within the report amongst ourselves. Typically the individual post and any quoting it are moved at the time we first see the report. They are moved to a selected area where only Mods dare tread. Sometimes we lock a thread and then move it at this time. When we reach a consensus, depending on what we decide, we take one of several available actions: 1) "Clean up" the thread of offending posts/imagery and move it back to where it was, unlocking it so discussion can continue 2) Leave the thread in purgatory for future reference. 3) Move the thread back, leaving a message as to why it remains locked, or a combination of the above depending on the number of posts that were offensive, where the thread's conversation was leading, etc.
Also, in regards to Politics/Religion not being allowed on the boards, and my comment that it always leads to warnings and bans - that is not because, or rather, not solely because of the rules against bringing those subjects up. Those rules are in place because people do get heated and quite often an ordinarily fine and sane poster gets their back up and starts lashing out inappropriately at other posters. Civil discussion is encouraged whilst flaming, trolling, and the like are discouraged with warnings and eventually banning. Still, some times very important events happen within the realm of political goings-on or religious goings-on that are affect so many people that it is difficult to be reasonable in denying people an opportunity to chime in on these topics. In those instances we do our best to watch and moderate the threads without disrupting the flow of conversation. This is very time-consuming for what is essentially an unpaid job and oftentimes distressing. We don't like warning people. We don't like banning people (except for those few that so clearly deserve it like the person that decided it would be hilarious to say how great it was another poster's father was dead so he wouldn't have to be disappointed in how he turned out as an adult). But we do it for the health of the boards as a whole.
And you know what? Sometimes we disagree, not only with posters, but with the other mods. We are different people with different viewpoints and sometimes we clash. It is rare that this becomes public as we do try to keep a somewhat "professional" public face but it happens. When it happens we either go with what the owners/admins decide or with the majority rules. If it's a deadlock then we typically tread on the side of caution and take the most literal wording of the rules as our guideline in what steps we take.
We have even made larger changes to the boards in response to requests and board traffic. Remember when we disallowed more than 3 active tournaments in Off Topic? Remember when TNA content was contained in the (w)rest of forum? I remember locking a lot of threads due to the Tournaments rules. Eventually, after a lot of discussion in the Mod area, a handful of us promised to police a new section if the admins would make it. A Games area for the people that really did enjoy that sort of thing and loved playing them with their friends on here. I can't tell you how happy I am to be able to say that I can not recall more than a single instance of trouble from that forum, and that was fairly minor. In my eyes that's proof that we can have nice things as long as we all keep our perspective. As for the TNA forum, that came about largely because TNA began to have a larger presence and our forum-goers requested it. It was a simple decision and one that I don't think we have regretted aside from short-lived animosity between members who felt you could not post in the WWE and TNA boards for some inane reason.
And you know what we get in return? We get the thanks of some of our members, I'd like to think the majority of them. There are boards out there with some sets of rules that are so strict that it's hard to breathe. But that's not all we get - we also get abuse. We tolerate far more than we should in that regard, I think. Because we've got these green names and a small amount of authority we're sometimes seen as "safe targets", and at least one of us knows how it feels to have their family attacked outside these forums, in public, for their association with us. Let that sink in for a moment. Where the hell is their sense of perspective? You get a slap on the wrist on an internet forum, a freaking internet forum, so you go out and take private pictures from someone's facebook and photoshop them and make them public in a negative fashion, even going so far as to make a t-shirt and take a picture of yourself wearing it. That is unacceptable. The moderating team here has gone above and beyond for the members of this forum. A number of times we have tried to reach out to help troubled members of these boards, searching social media for word of them or contact information so that we can try to help. At least one time we used a poster's IP address to locate a poster's house and contact authorities to prevent a suicide attempt. Is that in the job description? No. We are just normal people with normal lives trying our best.
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Thank you Psy for the well thought out words.Now the changes.
In one week we will be switching over to V5 of proboards. There are a lot of new features coming with it (some we will implement, some we won't) and we'll be tinkering with those in the weeks ahead.
What this does mean though is that everyone will have to get a global account. Once the board is switched over, you'll log in with your regular account and from there, it'll give you directions on setting up a global account. If you have any issues with it, one of us should be able to help you.
With the switch to V5, we've also decided to revise our rules a bit. Now don't worry, we're not implementing a "We Love Kash" rule or anything, just clarifying things a bit. We also feel that while the three warnings = ban thing works, some rules may not be as serious as others. The mods will still use discretion, so if you feel like being a giant douchebag and go on a flaming spree, you'll probably not going to get three chances to do so.
I appreciate everyone's time, and once the switchover happens, we may have a thread here discussing what sort of features you might want to see added.
It's easy to lose sight of perspective when you're having a conversation with someone and you're not face-to-face. It's all too easy to see the words and forget that there is a person behind them that might feel just as strongly about what they're saying as you feel about your own side of things. The urge to swear, to let things devolve into an argument instead of the civil discourse you had planned to have is sometimes hard to deny. When that happens, all I ask is that you take a step back and try to see things from the other persons side of things. You do not have to agree with them, but try to see where they are coming from.
You can disagree with people without resorting to insults passively or aggressively. You can discuss things that are terrible, things that are controversial, things that are unpardonable, things that are silly, or things that are just plain unnecessary. I think the most important thing to a civil discourse is the implementation, by all parties, of perspective. You have to be able to see things from your own perspective, of course, but if you are going to understand the other people you might have to go outside of your comfort zone and try to see things from their perspective as well. I recently had a heated discussion with a friend of mine after he lied to escape jury duty. I did not agree with his solution at all and told him so. My friend has severe social anxiety. I've dealt with that myself before (and again, as it is a recurring problem for me) but I didn't think that excused his behavior. You are given an opportunity to speak to the judge and counsels and convince them of your sincerity and inability to serve on a jury. By instead saying racist things and behaving like a bigot he did not even try. I can see his point of view, and sympathize with it, without agreeing with it. Likewise he can see my point of view and understand it without agreeing with me.
We, the moderating staff at FAN, have had some tough times here. There have been moments of incredible sadness as we've lost members of these boards that we've come to know and cherish. There have been moments of personal anguish when loved ones pass on. There have times when we've overreacted, times when we've underreacted. There have been times when we've been threatened with lawsuits. There have been times when we've been threatened with closure. There have been good times, and bad times, and many times in between. I'm going to say "times" one more time... well, two more ti-, er, instances of the word. Just because. We make many decisions every day about what threads are due to be closed by behavior in them, which posts should be removed so we can keep a thread on-topic and free of flames & unsavory behavior. We don't make these decisions quite as lightly as many people seem to think. It is not arbitrary. We have a lot of experience in dealing with the after-effects of good threads going bad, of simple topics becoming swampy mires of misanthropy & chaos, of chat threads literally breaking the boards, and so many other things it's impossible to go over them all.
Did you know these boards have almost been closed down and deleted before? Not just once, either. These instances caused massive changes in our rules, changes that not a single one of us wanted to make or enforce. To keep the forums going we had to make those changes, though. It was literally our only choice other than opting for deletion. We still have to enforce those changes as well, though we have fairly recently altered them so that they are more acceptable. We know what it is like to be threatened by someone in authority over something we have limited control over simply because they don't want to be hassled. We do our best to not simply pass the buck and put it all on you guys, we strike as happy a medium as we can on this and all other issues.
We don't just make split-second permanent decisions about threads, posts, and the like. Would you like to know what we do? If a thread or post is reported to us using the "Report to Mod" feature, we discuss it within the report amongst ourselves. Typically the individual post and any quoting it are moved at the time we first see the report. They are moved to a selected area where only Mods dare tread. Sometimes we lock a thread and then move it at this time. When we reach a consensus, depending on what we decide, we take one of several available actions: 1) "Clean up" the thread of offending posts/imagery and move it back to where it was, unlocking it so discussion can continue 2) Leave the thread in purgatory for future reference. 3) Move the thread back, leaving a message as to why it remains locked, or a combination of the above depending on the number of posts that were offensive, where the thread's conversation was leading, etc.
Also, in regards to Politics/Religion not being allowed on the boards, and my comment that it always leads to warnings and bans - that is not because, or rather, not solely because of the rules against bringing those subjects up. Those rules are in place because people do get heated and quite often an ordinarily fine and sane poster gets their back up and starts lashing out inappropriately at other posters. Civil discussion is encouraged whilst flaming, trolling, and the like are discouraged with warnings and eventually banning. Still, some times very important events happen within the realm of political goings-on or religious goings-on that are affect so many people that it is difficult to be reasonable in denying people an opportunity to chime in on these topics. In those instances we do our best to watch and moderate the threads without disrupting the flow of conversation. This is very time-consuming for what is essentially an unpaid job and oftentimes distressing. We don't like warning people. We don't like banning people (except for those few that so clearly deserve it like the person that decided it would be hilarious to say how great it was another poster's father was dead so he wouldn't have to be disappointed in how he turned out as an adult). But we do it for the health of the boards as a whole.
And you know what? Sometimes we disagree, not only with posters, but with the other mods. We are different people with different viewpoints and sometimes we clash. It is rare that this becomes public as we do try to keep a somewhat "professional" public face but it happens. When it happens we either go with what the owners/admins decide or with the majority rules. If it's a deadlock then we typically tread on the side of caution and take the most literal wording of the rules as our guideline in what steps we take.
We have even made larger changes to the boards in response to requests and board traffic. Remember when we disallowed more than 3 active tournaments in Off Topic? Remember when TNA content was contained in the (w)rest of forum? I remember locking a lot of threads due to the Tournaments rules. Eventually, after a lot of discussion in the Mod area, a handful of us promised to police a new section if the admins would make it. A Games area for the people that really did enjoy that sort of thing and loved playing them with their friends on here. I can't tell you how happy I am to be able to say that I can not recall more than a single instance of trouble from that forum, and that was fairly minor. In my eyes that's proof that we can have nice things as long as we all keep our perspective. As for the TNA forum, that came about largely because TNA began to have a larger presence and our forum-goers requested it. It was a simple decision and one that I don't think we have regretted aside from short-lived animosity between members who felt you could not post in the WWE and TNA boards for some inane reason.
And you know what we get in return? We get the thanks of some of our members, I'd like to think the majority of them. There are boards out there with some sets of rules that are so strict that it's hard to breathe. But that's not all we get - we also get abuse. We tolerate far more than we should in that regard, I think. Because we've got these green names and a small amount of authority we're sometimes seen as "safe targets", and at least one of us knows how it feels to have their family attacked outside these forums, in public, for their association with us. Let that sink in for a moment. Where the hell is their sense of perspective? You get a slap on the wrist on an internet forum, a freaking internet forum, so you go out and take private pictures from someone's facebook and photoshop them and make them public in a negative fashion, even going so far as to make a t-shirt and take a picture of yourself wearing it. That is unacceptable. The moderating team here has gone above and beyond for the members of this forum. A number of times we have tried to reach out to help troubled members of these boards, searching social media for word of them or contact information so that we can try to help. At least one time we used a poster's IP address to locate a poster's house and contact authorities to prevent a suicide attempt. Is that in the job description? No. We are just normal people with normal lives trying our best.
=====
Thank you Psy for the well thought out words.Now the changes.
In one week we will be switching over to V5 of proboards. There are a lot of new features coming with it (some we will implement, some we won't) and we'll be tinkering with those in the weeks ahead.
What this does mean though is that everyone will have to get a global account. Once the board is switched over, you'll log in with your regular account and from there, it'll give you directions on setting up a global account. If you have any issues with it, one of us should be able to help you.
With the switch to V5, we've also decided to revise our rules a bit. Now don't worry, we're not implementing a "We Love Kash" rule or anything, just clarifying things a bit. We also feel that while the three warnings = ban thing works, some rules may not be as serious as others. The mods will still use discretion, so if you feel like being a giant douchebag and go on a flaming spree, you'll probably not going to get three chances to do so.
I appreciate everyone's time, and once the switchover happens, we may have a thread here discussing what sort of features you might want to see added.