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Post by Wolf Hawkfield no1 NZ poster on Apr 8, 2013 20:14:28 GMT -5
I posted this in the MMA news thread but I figured this might actually warrant a proper discussion because there has been some serious discussion over past few weeks over transsexual fighter Fallon Fox and if male to female transsexuals should be allowed to fight female fighters. Also Mitrione's comments can be herd about the 15 min mark here linkLanguage warning and there is a pretty tasteless rape joke made by him as well.
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Sigma: Current SRW Champ!
Dennis Stamp
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Post by Sigma: Current SRW Champ! on Apr 8, 2013 20:23:31 GMT -5
I have some pretty strong ties to the Trans community. I saw those comments and I wanted to deck him for not only those comments, but the tasteless rape comment as well. Mitrione is a putz from what I remember during The Ultimate Fighter and I am happy he's suspended.
On a lighter note, I bet Fallon Fox can take him out.
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Post by Angus Mcloud on Apr 8, 2013 20:30:42 GMT -5
What was the bad stuff he said? From what I read so far he just said that its disgusting that the transgender fighter is fighting women. Which is not all that bad. But I didn't listen to it so can someone fill me in?
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FinalGwen
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Post by FinalGwen on Apr 8, 2013 20:35:13 GMT -5
Googled him and read the comments. Ugh. Kudos to UFC for suspending the smeghead.
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Post by Psy on Apr 8, 2013 20:50:12 GMT -5
If he had stopped before saying the below, I would not be for his suspension. He was expressing an opinion, that while it might be unpopular, was not radical or intentionally offensive.
And that's where he lost me completely.
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Mac
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Post by Mac on Apr 8, 2013 20:53:35 GMT -5
What was the bad stuff he said? From what I read so far he just said that its disgusting that the transgender fighter is fighting women. Which is not all that bad. But I didn't listen to it so can someone fill me in? Probably when Mitrione called Fox a "lying, sick, sociopathic, disgusting freak." I dunno about the suspension really, I hear guys talk crap all the time and some guys generally don't like the other fighters for one reason or another.
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chazraps
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Post by chazraps on Apr 8, 2013 21:10:00 GMT -5
Good.
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Post by Wolf Hawkfield no1 NZ poster on Apr 8, 2013 21:52:02 GMT -5
If he had stopped before saying the below, I would not be for his suspension. He was expressing an opinion, that while it might be unpopular, was not radical or intentionally offensive. And that's where he lost me completely. Well thats the thing if he just said I don't think she should be fighting women no one would of cared as Cain Velasquez said that along with several other MMA fighters but they had the common sense not to compare her a with movie serial killer.
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SEAN CARLESS
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Apr 9, 2013 3:33:07 GMT -5
If he had stopped before saying the below, I would not be for his suspension. He was expressing an opinion, that while it might be unpopular, was not radical or intentionally offensive. And that's where he lost me completely. A lot of people in MMA circles are convinced that Fox, once a mediocre MMA artist and completely straight male with a girlfriend prior to the operation, may have had surgery only to become famous, hence Mitrione's (poorly phrased) comments. Fox's ex has insisted that Fallon has mental problems. And therein lies the slippery slope, and unsightly PR for the Transgender community. Not so much that Fallon be labeled a woman now and accepted as such, but that she may have only had the change to fight at an unfair level and gain fame in that manner. (And don't fool yourself, it IS possible. There's TONS of people who do a lot of strange things to themselves with surgery, for fame, or just crazy reasons altogether). That said, regardless of estrogen therapy, Fallon does absolutely hold a potential unfair advantage over the women she'll fight. That's just science and has little to do with gender identity. Her bone density and musculature is biologically male. And therefore she has an automatic advantage over other females in that environment. Plus, without estrogen therapy, she could regain a level of testosterone, that if masked while testing, will give Fox another serious advantage. It's a real conundrum. MMA is sport with testing to (attempt to) create a balanced fight, free of advantage. This is not a moral argument. It's a fair-play one.
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mo
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Post by mo on Apr 9, 2013 6:42:51 GMT -5
Lol@"UFC code of conduct.
He did go a bit extreme with his answer though.
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Post by Angus Mcloud on Apr 9, 2013 7:31:43 GMT -5
Sounds like he's bashing a man beating up women more than bashing the community as a whole. Can't say I totally disagree with him
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Sam Punk
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Post by Sam Punk on Apr 9, 2013 7:38:05 GMT -5
transphobic?
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Post by Psy on Apr 9, 2013 10:51:05 GMT -5
If he had stopped before saying the below, I would not be for his suspension. He was expressing an opinion, that while it might be unpopular, was not radical or intentionally offensive. And that's where he lost me completely. A lot of people in MMA circles are convinced that Fox, once a mediocre MMA artist and completely straight male with a girlfriend prior to the operation, may have had surgery only to become famous, hence Mitrione's (poorly phrased) comments. Fox's ex has insisted that Fallon has mental problems. And therein lies the slippery slope, and unsightly PR for the Transgender community. Not so much that Fallon be labeled a woman now and accepted as such, but that she may have only had the change to fight at an unfair level and gain fame in that manner. (And don't fool yourself, it IS possible. There's TONS of people who do a lot of strange things to themselves with surgery, for fame, or just crazy reasons altogether). That said, regardless of estrogen therapy, Fallon does absolutely hold a potential unfair advantage over the women she'll fight. That's just science and has little to do with gender identity. Her bone density and musculature is biologically male. And therefore she has an automatic advantage over other females in that environment. Plus, without estrogen therapy, she could regain a level of testosterone, that if masked while testing, will give Fox another serious advantage. It's a real conundrum. MMA is sport with testing to (attempt to) create a balanced fight, free of advantage. This is not a moral argument. It's a fair-play one. But rather than make his argument on facts and such alone he resorted to a personal attack that is easily misconstrued as an attack on all transgender people. Though in all honesty I would have expected UFC to suspend him for the rape joke alone like they did with... was it Torres? The guy that said something like "if they called rape 'surprise' instead it wouldn't be nearly as hurtful" or something. I'm misquoting that, it was a stupid joke in the first place and he got suspended for it.
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FinalGwen
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Post by FinalGwen on Apr 9, 2013 10:57:56 GMT -5
If he had stopped before saying the below, I would not be for his suspension. He was expressing an opinion, that while it might be unpopular, was not radical or intentionally offensive. And that's where he lost me completely. A lot of people in MMA circles are convinced that Fox, once a mediocre MMA artist and completely straight male with a girlfriend prior to the operation, may have had surgery only to become famous, hence Mitrione's (poorly phrased) comments. Um... People do realise that orientation and gender aren't the same thing, right?
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chazraps
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Post by chazraps on Apr 9, 2013 11:00:05 GMT -5
transphobic? Welcome to 2013 where all people are expected to be respected and treated as human beings. It's pretty cool.
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Sigma: Current SRW Champ!
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Post by Sigma: Current SRW Champ! on Apr 9, 2013 11:04:15 GMT -5
The line I took most offense with in Meathead's meatheaded ranting was how he compared Fallon's fights to Chris Brown and Rihanna. Yeah, because a secured sanctioned fight with a referee and doctors 20 feet away is the same as putting a girl's head through a window and beating her half to death before threatening to kill her if she called the cops.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2013 11:07:57 GMT -5
If he had stopped before saying the below, I would not be for his suspension. He was expressing an opinion, that while it might be unpopular, was not radical or intentionally offensive. And that's where he lost me completely. A lot of people in MMA circles are convinced that Fox, once a mediocre MMA artist and completely straight male with a girlfriend prior to the operation, may have had surgery only to become famous, hence Mitrione's (poorly phrased) comments. Fox's ex has insisted that Fallon has mental problems. And therein lies the slippery slope, and unsightly PR for the Transgender community. Not so much that Fallon be labeled a woman now and accepted as such, but that she may have only had the change to fight at an unfair level and gain fame in that manner. (And don't fool yourself, it IS possible. There's TONS of people who do a lot of strange things to themselves with surgery, for fame, or just crazy reasons altogether). That said, regardless of estrogen therapy, Fallon does absolutely hold a potential unfair advantage over the women she'll fight. That's just science and has little to do with gender identity. Her bone density and musculature is biologically male. And therefore she has an automatic advantage over other females in that environment. Plus, without estrogen therapy, she could regain a level of testosterone, that if masked while testing, will give Fox another serious advantage. It's a real conundrum. MMA is sport with testing to (attempt to) create a balanced fight, free of advantage. This is not a moral argument. It's a fair-play one. Yeah, but see how you addressed those points (Even the uncomfortable ones) without resorting to calling anyone a sociopathic freak? You wouldn't get suspended from the UFC.
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Dang!
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Post by Dang! on Apr 9, 2013 11:52:03 GMT -5
I didn't know that you could compete as a female as a M2F trans person. I'd say that's an unfair advantage that even surpasses performance enhancement drugs. Mitrione comes across as a douche, but the fair-play argument is kinda understandable. But then, what's fair? Is it fair that people are born with different chances of succeeding in a certain field? Maybe, a M2F trans person beating up female fighters is a price you have to pay when you want equal rights for everyone and female quotas in certain fields.
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Post by Dan Gerous on Apr 9, 2013 11:53:52 GMT -5
I agree with the guy, but he maybe shouldn't have made it so public, or at least not in the way he did it. There's too many people just looking for a reason to be outraged nowadays, he should have known they would jump all over him for it.
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chazraps
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Post by chazraps on Apr 9, 2013 11:58:53 GMT -5
Or maybe, you know, people are finally realizing how marginalized and misunderstood the trans-community is and finally having the same tolerance for transphobia that they have for homophobia and racism.
Gender-corrective surgery is no different than any other corrective surgery.
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